Singapore bashing
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It is indeed sad to see that in some threads, some apparently undeserved Singaporean takes pleasure in Singapore bashing.
In the thread about the treatment of the family of the lost crew in the marine accident, there are comments like "That's Singapore" and "Welcome to Singapore", when law was not changed or disregarded to expedite the issuance of a death certificate. Have those who criticised ever had been at the receiving end of a legal system that is "flexible" enough to be changed by a single person to suit his needs? I have when I worked in a third world country and was involved in a minor vehicular accident (only the bumper was dented). I was put into the jail (albeit for a short time) like a common criminal. When the case came to court, the judge decided that since I was an expatriate, and therefore must be rich (I assure everyone that I am not), to fine me many times a local under the same situation would. Once a person had been in a similar situation that I had, he would appreciate stringent compliance and enforcement of the law, even though it can be a pain at times. At least, all will be treated equally.
In another thread, there were some immatured and unjustified grouses about having to do NS. In the same third world country, I was at the wrong end of a shotgun, a pistol and a machette. In the area that I lived in, riots occurred EVERY NIGHT and my compound was used as a short cut by the rioters. The police were corrupt and ineffective and could/would not do anything about the law and order situation. I had a parang in every room, even though it would not have been of much use - but at least, I had undergone military training - toughening. In Singapore we have NS to provide a stable environment where we don;t have to fear for our lifes every day.
For those who cannot stand the peace and stability that we have, I urge you to give up your Singapore citizenship and migrate to a third world country that is lawless so that you can enjoy the exciting life that you are bound to have there. -
well, true........in singapore, things are much safer....i assume you live in Indonasia right? every parang in a room is not safe enuf.....learn what my mom's fren did
*3gurka's arm with Uzi on 24hour duty
*2 fully load shotgun on the living room put on a sumurai sword rack
pistols(loaded) in every room and corner
and
a spray system used to spray weedkiller filled with sulparic acid on the front door......
of course.....that guy is bloody rich...... -
its hard for ppl to appreciate the circumstances they are in if they have been in such a circumstance for all their lives.
hence the older generation would have experienced firsthand the kind of quantum leap improvement in the stds of living and quality of life since our independence, while the younger generation have only experienced comfort since they are born.
as such its folly to ask them to compare what we have with other less fortunate countries. it jus the same as asking a kid from a middle income family to appreciate how lucky he is compared to a kid from a low income one. without first hand experience its hard to relate.
i guess its ok to complain - if its constructive, if its the on and off kind of getting things off our chests. however if its persistent and vehement outbursts, i think its better for the complainant to examine whether or not there are better and more meaningful ways. lower ur expectations? get ur message across to those who matter? leave? these are options we all have and we all get to choose between. -
?Originally posted by panja_v:Please do not ever ask people to leave their own country. You seem like an older person.
We are expected to put Nation before family.
Asking someone to leave their own country, and when people feels that they have to leave their own country - is like children disowning their parents. Sure, they are parents who are so horrible.
Sure there are people who feel that their country is so horrible.
These must be the absolute miniscule exceptions. Not something that people can freely suggest, like it is such an everyday thing.
I know of peoples who have such long and proud traditions with such pride of their country.
Please I beg you, help change this into a country all Singaporeans can be so proud of, like I was at one time so proud of. Please do not ask people to leave.
what i was saying was we all have several options. leaving is one of them. and we have to make the decision amongst these choices. -
I do not dispute that Singapore could be better, but then what can a normal person think of that is perfect? From your reply, you apparently care for Singapore, good for you.Originally posted by panja_v:Please do not ever ask people to leave their own country. You seem like an older person.
We are expected to put Nation before family.
Asking someone to leave their own country, and when people feels that they have to leave their own country - is like children disowning their parents. Sure, they are parents who are so horrible.
Sure there are people who feel that their country is so horrible.
These must be the absolute miniscule exceptions. Not something that people can freely suggest, like it is such an everyday thing.
I know of peoples who have such long and proud traditions with such pride of their country.
Please I beg you, help change this into a country all Singaporeans can be so proud of, like I was at one time so proud of. Please do not ask people to leave.
You seem to like analogies: "like children disowning their parents" and "is as bad as a father telling his daughter, 'you can be a lawyer, a doctor or prostitute when you grow up'".
Analogies are just like statistics, it is often used to present from one perspective. I used to teach statistics and problem solving techniques and thus these two "tools" are particularly familiar to me. I will use an analogy to show my perspective.
"A traitor is like a cancer and should be gotten rid of, for otherwise it may spread and cause the person with the cancer to die".
Another statement that I noticed was "they [sic] are parents who are so horrible". Maybe I can restate it as "there are children who are so horrible". I used to teach analytical and design skills too, so I look at practically everything in depth.
By the way, this post is not meant to be critical of you. -
I agree. But when someone starts hurling indiscriminate vulgarities like a mad dog (in the NS sucks post) ...Originally posted by wuming78:i guess its ok to complain - if its constructive, if its the on and off kind of getting things off our chests.
I agree too. An often used and tired cliche that comes to mind is "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country". If everyone works towards that end, then things will move. What I have put forward is idealistic. Although I am to a large extent an idealist, I am even more of a realist and knows that that will never happen.Originally posted by wuming78:whether or not there are better and more meaningful ways. lower ur expectations? get ur message across to those who matter? leave? these are options we all have and we all get to choose between.
What is important in the issue is that we must have realistic expectations. -
Encik, relax la...they are not airing it on SBC. This is not mainstream media channel...let it be la...why so authoritative? Kaobei also cannot? You in your 60s?Originally posted by dragonstar:I do not dispute that Singapore could be better, but then what can a normal person think of that is perfect? From your reply, you apparently care for Singapore, good for you.
You seem to like analogies: "like children disowning their parents" and "is as bad as a father telling his daughter, 'you can be a lawyer, a doctor or prostitute when you grow up'".
Analogies are just like statistics, it is often used to present from one perspective. I used to teach statistics and problem solving techniques and thus these two "tools" are particularly familiar to me. I will use an analogy to show my perspective.
"A traitor is like a cancer and should be gotten rid of, for otherwise it may spread and cause the person with the cancer to die".
Another statement that I noticed was "they [sic] are parents who are so horrible". Maybe I can restate it as "there are children who are so horrible". I used to teach analytical and design skills too, so I look at practically everything in depth.
By the way, this post is not meant to be critical of you. -
Your friends are unlikely to be below the poverty line; below their expectations maybe?Originally posted by panja_v:The other day I met a school classmate who migrated to Aust with her husband (both lawyers).
I know of another friend, engineer, who is planning to leave.
OMG what happened? People below the poverty line in most countries try to find work elswhere and go home. They do not even chose to leave their countries.
Anyway, I personally know a labourer from India who is returning home to get married. Even as a labourer, he earns more than he would at home. I knew Indonesian, Sri Lankan and Indian maids who earns more than at their countries (one was even a teacher).
Why did/do they go home? Well, one said she could start up a small business with the money earned here. Do they want to come back? Well, at least half of them indicated so.
Why did they not stay? Because they can't, with immigration and manpower laws.
I myself had considered seeking employment overseas. If I do, I will still return as Singapore is Home. -
dragonstar, as much as I agree with your sentiments regarding the NS thread, your suggestion above is entirely contrary to the idea of democracy that Singapore claims to be. As I said in the NS thread, the basis of democracy is encapsulated in Voltaire's statement: "I may not agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it".Originally posted by dragonstar:For those who cannot stand the peace and stability that we have, I urge you to give up your Singapore citizenship and migrate to a third world country that is lawless so that you can enjoy the exciting life that you are bound to have there.
The unfortunate paradox of the situation is that it is precisely the peace and stability that you speak of that allows some forumites the luxury to post the sentiments that you presently object to.
Nice to meet a fellow statistician, by the way!
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mabbe i get wat u mean.Originally posted by panja_v:What I am saying is that it is so horrible to even consider that option. That for you to even offer that option for consideration is as bad as a father telling his daughter,
"you can be a lawyer, a doctor or prostitute when you grow up"
My opinion is the same in both cases. I feel so sad you do not agree with me.
to u the country is probably more impt than the self. trust me tt is wat i feel too.
but tt is not wat everyone feels. and this is a reality.
everyone has options they can exercise. tt is the crux of my statement. but i do not encourage ppl leaving their countries at their wimp and fancy.
wat i was driving at was tt, there r many ppl who think and act as though they haf no choice in their lives - tt they r stuck in their current situations and can do nothing more than complain and criticise. i urge them to think of the choices they haf, and exercise them. tt, in the long run, is better off for everyone. -
Dude, have you ever heard of freedom of speech?Just because you dislike their point of view does not mean they are obliged to meet your inane wishes.So what if people do not like this place?Are you going to be a tantrum-throwing person and bawl, insisting that they are ingrates and they should leave this place?No doubt, there may be ungrateful people around who we sweat useless blood and tears for, but the hallmark of civility is the fact that we will defend their right to spout their words.Originally posted by dragonstar:It is indeed sad to see that in some threads, some apparently undeserved Singaporean takes pleasure in Singapore bashing.
In the thread about the treatment of the family of the lost crew in the marine accident, there are comments like "That's Singapore" and "Welcome to Singapore", when law was not changed or disregarded to expedite the issuance of a death certificate. Have those who criticised ever had been at the receiving end of a legal system that is "flexible" enough to be changed by a single person to suit his needs? I have when I worked in a third world country and was involved in a minor vehicular accident (only the bumper was dented). I was put into the jail (albeit for a short time) like a common criminal. When the case came to court, the judge decided that since I was an expatriate, and therefore must be rich (I assure everyone that I am not), to fine me many times a local under the same situation would. Once a person had been in a similar situation that I had, he would appreciate stringent compliance and enforcement of the law, even though it can be a pain at times. At least, all will be treated equally.
In another thread, there were some immatured and unjustified grouses about having to do NS. In the same third world country, I was at the wrong end of a shotgun, a pistol and a machette. In the area that I lived in, riots occurred EVERY NIGHT and my compound was used as a short cut by the rioters. The police were corrupt and ineffective and could/would not do anything about the law and order situation. I had a parang in every room, even though it would not have been of much use - but at least, I had undergone military training - toughening. In Singapore we have NS to provide a stable environment where we don;t have to fear for our lifes every day.
For those who cannot stand the peace and stability that we have, I urge you to give up your Singapore citizenship and migrate to a third world country that is lawless so that you can enjoy the exciting life that you are bound to have there.
God help us if you become a minister.Such intolerance has no place in today's world, I'm contributing my little bit to make it so. -
And you think you are doing any better by putting him down because he disagree with your views? Relac lah brother, people have their own point of view also lah. He disagree with your ideas and voice it out does not mean that he is trying to supress others, so dun be too overly critical lah. Anyway, i dun think this topic belongs to the military nuts forum. But i i will l leave this thread on for 48hrs before closing it. So please voice your opposition against this decision during this grace period. Thx. You may proceed to speakers corner to continue your discussion.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Dude, have you ever heard of freedom of speech?Just because you dislike their point of view does not mean they are obliged to meet your inane wishes.So what if people do not like this place?Are you going to be a tantrum-throwing person and bawl, insisting that they are ingrates and they should leave this place?No doubt, there may be ungrateful people around who we sweat useless blood and tears for, but the hallmark of civility is the fact that we will defend their right to spout their words.
God help us if you become a minister.Such intolerance has no place in today's world, I'm contributing my little bit to make it so. -
I agree with your stand on NS. But I have to disagree your opinion with the other issueOriginally posted by dragonstar:In the thread about the treatment of the family of the lost crew in the marine accident, there are comments like "That's Singapore" and "Welcome to Singapore", when law was not changed or disregarded to expedite the issuance of a death certificate. Have those who criticised ever had been at the receiving end of a legal system that is "flexible" enough to be changed by a single person to suit his needs?
Conversely, have you ever thought about how the family of 2SG Chua feels? Or been at the receiving end of a system that is too inflexible to consider the merits of each case, knowing that every case is unique and may have its own merits?
The reason for the uneven application of the law in the 3rd world country you have experienced is a result of Greed fueled by corruption. Not due to leeway to apply the law with flexibility. It's an atrocious example to make your point, IMO
I do feel lucky that I live in Singapore and not countries like Indonesia, Bangladesh or Cambodia. And I'm grateful for the fact that our policies have brought us up to where we are. But at the same time, I feel that these policies are exactly the ones that are hamstringing Singapore's aspirations to move up to the next level of development. This "no u-turn" mindset, this "we know better" mentality, this "Good grades= good person" idea. And thats just the beginning.
Your appreciation for the "stability" in Singapore is borne out of your experiences in poorer countries. That is perfectly clear and underandable. But at the same time, I urge to to understand that those who are calling for change have their ideas borne out of their own experiences living in countries that have gone to the next level of development.
As for your encouragement for unhappy Singaporeans to leave. I would seriously urge you to reconsider it. Do you think this brain drain is what Singapore needs? Those leaving are undoubtedly well off, well educated, have an ability to think beyond what they are spoonfed and dare to take risks. As Gedanken once said to me, these people are exactly what Singapore needs to move on and develop further. Not to mention these are Singaporeans and will have Singaporean kids. Sure we can make up those numbers with the "Cheap Foreign Labour" the government likes to mis-label as "Foriegn Talent". But if you think these people are here for the duration, you've got another think coming.
And yes, this topic is not relevant to the forum. You're welcome to restart it on Speakers Forum. In fact, theres already one like it there.
The pros and cons of emigration -
I don't think thats entirely true. While I've met people who think the grass is greener on the other side based on hearsay and what they see on TV, an increasing number of Singaporeans are feeling disenchantment because they have personally lived their lives overseas. And even though its not all fun and games elsewhere, they can see that having less government control, true ballot box democracy, having a robust oppostion, a free press, a welfare state (of sorts) and a flexible bureaucracy will not tear a country apart like how the gah'ment keeps claiming those actions I listed above will do to Singapore.Originally posted by wuming78:, while the younger generation have only experienced comfort since they are born.
I used to buy the government's line unquestioningly (see my very earliest posts on Speakers Corner) until I got the opportunity to live in Australia, see their system 1st hand and interact with Australians for 4 years. Talk about taking the Red Pill... -
agree...tat is y i dun bother even reply to this post last nite..Originally posted by CenturionMBT:And you think you are doing any better by putting him down because he disagree with your views? Relac lah brother, people have their own point of view also lah. He disagree with your ideas and voice it out does not mean that he is trying to supress others, so dun be too overly critical lah. Anyway, i dun think this topic belongs to the military nuts forum. But i i will l leave this thread on for 48hrs before closing it. So please voice your opposition against this decision during this grace period. Thx. You may proceed to speakers corner to continue your discussion.
1st thing come into my mind when i read this post at 3am...who give the fuk abt wat he says..im still gona do what im suppose to do..
n go back slp.. -
Poor me is misunderstood. My suggestion is supported by democracy - I am suggesting that the the free choice of getting out is exercised.Originally posted by Gedanken:your suggestion above is entirely contrary to the idea of democracy that Singapore claims to be
Academician, my dear boy, albeit ex-academician. Gave up my lecturing job to concentrate on post-grad degree.Originally posted by Gedanken:Nice to meet a fellow statistician, by the way! -
Yes I have heard of free speech - and I am glad that ours is not yet similar to that of America's. Here, most of us still feel strongly about accountability off what we say.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Dude, have you ever heard of freedom of speech?
I am not forcing anyone to agree to my point of view. I am just exercising my right of free speech - heard of it? Oh yeah, you must have because you brouht it up.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Just because you dislike their point of view does not mean they are obliged to meet your inane wishes.
As my postings indicate, I am a rational person and have not thrown tantrums. Those in the "NS sucks" thread were the ones.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Are you going to be a tantrum-throwing person and bawl, insisting that they are ingrates and they should leave this place? -
Originally posted by dragonstar:
Removal of oneself from a society is one aspect of democracy that could lend itself to abuses, dragonstar, if one does not apply extreme caution. While I know what you mean, having exercised that choice myself, Stalin could have claimed that all good Russians were given the choice to go to Siberia, and that they declined that choice by keeping their mouths shut. Besides, it is a part of democracy that one may choose to stay within that society and whinge about it.
Poor me is misunderstood. My suggestion is supported by democracy - I am suggesting that the the free choice of getting out is exercised.Originally posted by dragonstar:
Aren't we all.
Academician, my dear boy, albeit ex-academician. Gave up my lecturing job to concentrate on post-grad degree.
What's your postgrad in, BTW? Mine was in psych. -
Ha Ha HaOriginally posted by snk86:well, true........in singapore, things are much safer....i assume you live in Indonasia right? every parang in a room is not safe enuf.....learn what my mom's fren did
*3gurka's arm with Uzi on 24hour duty
*2 fully load shotgun on the living room put on a sumurai sword rack
pistols(loaded) in every room and corner
and
a spray system used to spray weedkiller filled with sulparic acid on the front door......
of course.....that guy is bloody rich......
Exagerating! I have been to Indonesia before many times. In fact i have relatives in Indonesia. I have never in my life encounter that kind of security before. Indonesia is not safe neither is it that dangerous! Just be careful should be enough! -
errm, the fact is that i bin to his house before, found bullet holes on his wall facing the street, and he said the shotguns has been reloaded more then thrice....the pistols he haven(luckily) got a chance to use yet......his guards have all fired shots before.......and yes, he got shot before, that was in the turmoil years when suharto was kicked down.........still he choose to stay in indonesia, because he says theres where the moneys are.........took me a long time to understand this statement........Originally posted by want to know:Ha Ha Ha Exagerating! I have been to Indonesia before many times. In fact i have relatives in Indonesia. I have never in my life encounter that kind of security before. Indonesia is not safe neither is it that dangerous! Just be careful should be enough! -
ha, but yeah, nowadays his "defence" has lowered quite a bit.......to only one guard at one time(3 guards rotate), and the shotgun has been kept in a less signifigant place.........he still follow a policy thou, that the main rule in a gun fight is that you MUST have a gun........
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Where does your friend stay? Which part of Indonesia? Which city? I have never see any of my Indonesian relative keeping a gun before. I am sure the situation in Indonesia is not that bad until people can walk in the street carrying guns or shooting bullets in the street or be able to buy gun very easily.Originally posted by snk86:errm, the fact is that i bin to his house before, found bullet holes on his wall facing the street, and he said the shotguns has been reloaded more then thrice....the pistols he haven(luckily) got a chance to use yet......his guards have all fired shots before.......and yes, he got shot before, that was in the turmoil years when suharto was kicked down.........still he choose to stay in indonesia, because he says theres where the moneys are.........took me a long time to understand this statement........ -
your relatives are probably not rich enough to be a frequent target of crime.Originally posted by want to know:Where does your friend stay? Which part of Indonesia? Which city? I have never see any of my Indonesian relative keeping a gun before. I am sure the situation in Indonesia is not that bad until people can walk in the street carrying guns or shooting bullets in the street or be able to buy gun very easily. -
Hmmm??? How rich is your friend? How rich is consider rich to you? Is your friend a millionaire or billionaire?Originally posted by nismoS132:your relatives are probably not rich enough to be a frequent target of crime.
I don't know if my relative is consider rich or not in your standard? But to me they are consider very rich! All of my relative in Indonesia are doing business. All of them own companies or factories. Some of them own companies or factories outside Indonesia. All of them are able to send their children overseas to study without any financial problems. All of them have more than one maid. One of them(my aunt's) house has a swimming pool. Sometimes when they go overseas for holiday they sit Business class/First class. I have never in my life sit in a Business class or First class sit before. Some of them been to Eupore, China and other countries. I have never been to Eupore before. Must be very expensive. If my family would be at least half as rich as them. I would be very happy. I really admire them very much. I don't exactly mind the violence in Indonesia. But your friend is right Indonesia is where the money is -
Originally posted by want to know:
lets just say that guy never fly airlines, for he got his own gulfstream! and his own heli, and such, his house in jakarta area is small(his small is, ahem, you guys can guess lah, our big) because he don wan attention, but i heard his other houses islike a small castle! he owns a few island and heck knows man! so if you wanna say, i consider his ultra rich, but he don shows it as he himselve knows how dangerous it is to flaunt wealth.......so i never got a chance to sit in his chopper...
Hmmm??? How rich is your friend? How rich is consider rich to you? Is your friend a millionaire or billionaire?
I don't know if my relative is consider rich or not in your standard? But to me they are consider very rich! All of my relative in Indonesia are doing business. All of them own companies or factories. Some of them own companies or factories outside Indonesia. All of them are able to send their children overseas to study without any financial problems. All of them have more than one maid. One of them(my aunt's) house has a swimming pool. Sometimes when they go overseas for holiday they sit Business class/First class. I have never in my life sit in a Business class or First class sit before. Some of them been to Eupore, China and other countries. I have never been to Eupore before. Must be very expensive. If my family would be at least half as rich as them. I would be very happy. I really admire them very much. I don't exactly mind the violence in Indonesia. But your friend is right[b] Indonesia is where the money is[/b]