SAF MBT(Main Battle Tank)
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well, me think it is impossible for isreal to sell us ANY merkavas...since they are bz upgrading all the MK3 to MK4s........me think highest possibility is M60.......
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and i AM a civi hor, so all this is just pure guessing, who knows, maybe out SR-71 just went landed at paya labar.....Originally posted by snk86:well, me think it is impossible for isreal to sell us ANY merkavas...since they are bz upgrading all the MK3 to MK4s........me think highest possibility is M60....... -
Actually Israeli Merkava Mk3 is on sales by the Israeli company especially the cutdown on spending by the Israeli govt.Originally posted by snk86:well, me think it is impossible for isreal to sell us ANY merkavas...since they are bz upgrading all the MK3 to MK4s........me think highest possibility is M60.......
The Mk4 are not available at the moment but the modernisation kits are.
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OH..........ok, then just a question, which country HAD bought the merkava? arab nations won't buy it..........UK have their challenger, US have their abram.........Originally posted by gary1910:Actually Israeli Merkava Mk3 is on sales by the Israeli company especially the cutdown on spending by the Israeli govt.
The Mk4 are not available at the moment but the modernisation kits are. -
I dun think any1 have bought it yet.Originally posted by snk86:OH..........ok, then just a question, which country HAD bought the merkava? arab nations won't buy it..........UK have their challenger, US have their abram.........
When I said abt the kits . I mean it could also be used in other tanks.
The Turkish are getting their M60 upgrade to Sabra Mk3, maybe some the stuff in Merk Mk4 are in the upgrade of Turkish tank fleet. -
The Israelis were offering the Merkavas to the Turks, but the latter did not buy it. Also heard that the Sabra sales were disrupted by US pressure for the Turks to buy M60 2000 instead. Is this true?Originally posted by snk86:OH..........ok, then just a question, which country HAD bought the merkava? arab nations won't buy it..........UK have their challenger, US have their abram......... -
I agree.Originally posted by cavsg:on one hand, I understand the govt reason to keep the mbt secret for national interest. on the other hand, I hope that such information can be released to the public, the majority of nsmen still thinks that singapore cannot be defended, even those highly educated ones, they have not much interest in military affairs and does not bother much about anything beyond their ict and ippt. worse is these big bunch of idiots go around telling how inferior singapore's armed forces are. nowadays singapore is full of foreigners and they really believe what is being told. they say that our armour is inferior becos we are still using amx-13 these days. and its true that public will think this way as these tanks were around with us for almost 35 years.
I really hope next year's ndp parade at padang we will get to see something new, 35 years ago when the amx-13 was paraded for the 1st time singaporeans were assured of their safety as they know that the island is protected by our own armour, so on our 40th birthday, I hope new generations of singaporeans will have this feeling again.
Afterall, parading a modernised 30 year old MBT is a powerful but not over the top message to send out to "would be" enemies that Singapore can protect itself. Parading a Sabra or Centurion is not like parading the latest M1A2 or Leo2A6 or even Lelerc. Furthermore, I am sure that it sure will boost morale.
I'm sure parading MBT would stir some talks from some radical Malaysian or Indonesian, but hey, look at their own backyard, they will be having PT-90, Sukhois, etc, what is there to be surprised if one day Singapore parade some Sabras or even Merks
plus our new Primus.
What would be nice to see in NDP is also a newly developed light tank with 120mm round that is going to be replacing the SM1s.... dream dream dream.... -
Amen to that...Originally posted by Joe Black:What would be nice to see in NDP is also a newly developed light tank with 120mm round that is going to be replacing the SM1s.... dream dream dream.... -
I heard the Turkish deal is quite firmed now.Originally posted by golani_bde:The Israelis were offering the Merkavas to the Turks, but the latter did not buy it. Also heard that the Sabra sales were disrupted by US pressure for the Turks to buy M60 2000 instead. Is this true?
Below is some of the kits for Sabra Mk3 upgrade, quite impressive:M60 A1 RISE/Passive - 274 - 170 will receive SABRA III upgrade program which is to be completed by 2007. The upgrade program encompasses thermal imaging and Elbit Knight-III fire control system (including stabilizer and ballistic computer), 120mm Merkawa-IV smoothbore cannon (with LAHAT guided ammunition) and fume extractor, automatic fire and explosion suppression system, Merkawa-IV add-on armor technology and explosive reactive armor (ERA), 1200 hp MTU diesel engine/transmission, full system modernization and integration capability, new improved Merkawa-IV tracks, RWR/IR warning system and NBC protection. The remaining M60A1 and M60A3 tanks are likely to undergo the same upgrade process with more involvement of Turkish companies, upon completion of the upgrade of first 170 tanks.
http://warriorsoul.4t.com/army.html -
I am wondering if i will get to learn how to operate the SM1 replacement after i have completed my studies and gone to the first ICT. Possible for reservist to train with new equipment?
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Yes , most probably. Just like what they did for the AMX-13 to SM1 in late 80s .Originally posted by tankee1981:I am wondering if i will get to learn how to operate the SM1 replacement after i have completed my studies and gone to the first ICT. Possible for reservist to train with new equipment?
But if they r going to gradually phase out SM1, then you might be stuck with it.
I hope not , junk the old tank immediately, to me they r obsolete against today threats. -
my take on the new MBTs, if there's any truth in it, would be to replaced those centurions we have in ROC. so most likely they won't be based in sing island.
but what choices do we have?
1. IMI Sabra;
2. second-hand stock of M60A3-A5 from US;
3. second-hand Leopard II A5 from Germany;
4. Second-hand AMX-30B2 from Fance;
5. second-hand Leopard I from Australia;
6. M60-2000 from US;
7. Merkava MK I/II from Israel;
8. Type-88 from South Korea;
9. Challenger from UK;
10. FV4201 Chieftain from UK;
11.Vickers MK III from UK;
12. second-hand M1A1s from US; -
Starlight armour camp closed down liao.Originally posted by foga:my take on the new MBTs, if there's any truth in it, would be to replaced those centurions we have in ROC. so most likely they won't be based in sing island.
Another thing not all were in ROC! -
then i dun think we would even get any MBTs...
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We could have trained elsewhere.Originally posted by foga:then i dun think we would even get any MBTs...
As I said , what make you think that all the Tempests were in ROC?
Let just say that not all Tempests were ever in ROC, they are somewhere else.
Dun ask me where, otherwise I will have to shoot you! -
In event of eastern seaboard contingency, they might even emerge from underground somewhere around Bedok Reservoir area, who knows....Originally posted by gary1910:We could have trained elsewhere.
As I said , what make you think that all the Tempests were in ROC?
Let just say that not all Tempests were ever in ROC, they are somewhere else.
Dun ask me where, otherwise I will have to shoot you! -
Actually seriously speaking.. its a good question you raised there. Hmm.. seriously do you guys think that the SAF would actually own MBTs? Hmm.. i guess its another one of those pros and cons situations. from what i can gather (non-classified stuff) singapore's military doctrine dictates that we produce a pre-emptive strike. and in a pre-emptive strike, i'm sure that MBTs are definitely needed to deal a decisive and swift blow to our enemies. But... given that we are an island nation and that neighbouring states are all relatively built up, i don't think they would deal the swift and powerful punch required by the SAF. the only reason why MBTs have been successful in recent combats is because they have the ability to travel over vast distances at considerable speeds and provide sufficient covering firer cum firepower needed to invade any enemy territory. I agree with those who say that FIBUA (Fighting in built-up areas) is a tankers worst nightmare.. but then again.. MBTs have been quite successfully used by the Israeli army when entering palestinan territory. (Israelis use M1A2 abraham).. hmm real good question you raised there. real tricky to answer to.. hee
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a few queries here.......since when did the israelis used m1a2 abraham?Originally posted by cj1t08:Actually seriously speaking.. its a good question you raised there. Hmm.. seriously do you guys think that the SAF would actually own MBTs? Hmm.. i guess its another one of those pros and cons situations. from what i can gather (non-classified stuff) singapore's military doctrine dictates that we produce a pre-emptive strike. and in a pre-emptive strike, i'm sure that MBTs are definitely needed to deal a decisive and swift blow to our enemies. But... given that we are an island nation and that neighbouring states are all relatively built up, i don't think they would deal the swift and powerful punch required by the SAF. the only reason why MBTs have been successful in recent combats is because they have the ability to travel over vast distances at considerable speeds and provide sufficient covering firer cum firepower needed to invade any enemy territory. I agree with those who say that FIBUA (Fighting in built-up areas) is a tankers worst nightmare.. but then again.. MBTs have been quite successfully used by the Israeli army when entering palestinan territory. (Israelis use M1A2 abraham).. hmm real good question you raised there. real tricky to answer to.. hee
secondly, israel used amour in built up area because there is a lack of organised resistance....... if there is sufficient organised forces e.g. chencheya then there will be heavy losses..... -
On your second remark:Originally posted by kanzer:a few queries here.......since when did the israelis used m1a2 abraham?
secondly, israel used amour in built up area because there is a lack of organised resistance....... if there is sufficient organised forces e.g. chencheya then there will be heavy losses.....
To take it that the intifada is posing a limited threat to the IDF is also to consider that it is a matter of time before the insurgents arrive at the level of sophistication that we observe in Iraq now.
Some anecdote of mine to this, as a first-hand account on a somewhat personal opinion expressed by an Israeli whom I hve worked with, is that his take on our BIONIX is that the IDF lacks
a vehicle of the type embodied in the BIONIX, more for its value
in engaging targets in BUA under adequate armour. My take on
his take is because it is known that currently IDF relies on the 20mm Gatling cannon mounted on their Zelda SPAAG to do this
job. Note that the Zelda is basically a M113-type vehicle (think
aluminium basic armour, then think multiple top-attacks by RPGs) -
had been wondering, will we ever see a new MBT coming out from US? ......Originally posted by cj1t08:Actually seriously speaking.. its a good question you raised there. Hmm.. seriously do you guys think that the SAF would actually own MBTs? Hmm.. i guess its another one of those pros and cons situations. from what i can gather (non-classified stuff) singapore's military doctrine dictates that we produce a pre-emptive strike. and in a pre-emptive strike, i'm sure that MBTs are definitely needed to deal a decisive and swift blow to our enemies. But... given that we are an island nation and that neighbouring states are all relatively built up, i don't think they would deal the swift and powerful punch required by the SAF. the only reason why MBTs have been successful in recent combats is because they have the ability to travel over vast distances at considerable speeds and provide sufficient covering firer cum firepower needed to invade any enemy territory. I agree with those who say that FIBUA (Fighting in built-up areas) is a tankers worst nightmare.. but then again.. MBTs have been quite successfully used by the Israeli army when entering palestinan territory. (Israelis use M1A2 abraham).. hmm real good question you raised there. real tricky to answer to.. hee
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Well , your statement is only half right, the Israeli which uses the Vulcan which actually a SP air defence gun mounted on M113 are extremely useful in BUA becos of it's high rate of fire and the ability to target high floor.Originally posted by panzerjager:On your second remark:
To take it that the intifada is posing a limited threat to the IDF is also to consider that it is a matter of time before the insurgents arrive at the level of sophistication that we observe in Iraq now.
Some anecdote of mine to this, as a first-hand account on a somewhat personal opinion expressed by an Israeli whom I hve worked with, is that his take on our BIONIX is that the IDF lacks
a vehicle of the type embodied in the BIONIX, more for its value
in engaging targets in BUA under adequate armour. My take on
his take is because it is known that currently IDF relies on the 20mm Gatling cannon mounted on their Zelda SPAAG to do this
job. Note that the Zelda is basically a M113-type vehicle (think
aluminium basic armour, then think multiple top-attacks by RPGs)
But to said they are thinly amoured ,I think you better look at the current Israeli M113:
Look at that additional armour at the sides and front of Zelda, I think it at least 1 foot thick. This AFV suppose to protected against RPG.
Another pic of Zelda, look at the funny looking amour shield on top, it was designed to be used in BUA.
This is latest Zelda 2, with Blazer ERA protected against medium ATGM like Milan etc.I think the world 2nd heaviest armoured APC , the first go to the Achzarit, Israeli modified T-54/55 APC.
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Ok....about the armour on Israeli M113, ok. But wat abt the Vulcanned Zelda? IDF still using the straight up M163Originally posted by gary1910:Well , your statement is only half right, the Israeli which uses the Vulcan which actually a SP air defence gun mounted on M113 are extremely useful in BUA becos of it's high rate of fire and the ability to target high floor.
But to said they are thinly amoured ,I think you better look at the current Israeli M113:
Look at that additional armour at the sides and front of Zelda, I think it at least 1 foot thick. This AFV suppose to protected against RPG.
Another pic of Zelda, look at the funny looking amour shield on top, it was designed to be BUA.
This is latest Zelda 2, with Blazer ERA protected against medium ATGM like Milan etc.
configuration straight up. The heavy cal MG/cannon depicted
in the first pic does not appear to be able to elevated beyond 25 deg. This is way below the maz elevation on the BIONIX. Furthermore, the weapon is mounted on a cupola, with operation
in open-hatch configuration, exposing operator totally to sniper fire. Again, this is unlike a turreted cannon system like the BIONIX.
Given the many security arrangements we have with Tel Aviv, albeit unannounced, it shouldn't be technically impractieable for IDF
to operate derivative of BIONIX. The only concern will be backlash from the likes of our regional Arab/Palestinian-friendly neighbours, from all the pro-Palestinian Arab countries, and worst, from Mr al-Qaida himself -
To said that the the Israeli M113 has thin armour is not true.Originally posted by panzerjager:Ok....about the armour on Israeli M113, ok. But wat abt the Vulcanned Zelda? IDF still using the straight up M163
configuration straight up. The heavy cal MG/cannon depicted
in the first pic does not appear to be able to elevated beyond 25 deg. This is way below the maz elevation on the BIONIX. Furthermore, the weapon is mounted on a cupola, with operation
in open-hatch configuration, exposing operator totally to sniper fire. Again, this is unlike a turreted cannon system like the BIONIX.
Given the many security arrangements we have with Tel Aviv, albeit unannounced, it shouldn't be technically impractieable for IDF
to operate derivative of BIONIX. The only concern will be backlash from the likes of our regional Arab/Palestinian-friendly neighbours, from all the pro-Palestinian Arab countries, and worst, from Mr al-Qaida himself
The Hovet is also a open hatch system, look at the gunner on the 2nd pic.
I believe the IDF dun really like to use it to fight in BUA becos it is simply not cost effective, becos the Hovat with all it's expensive FCS and radar, it is just too costly to lose the expensive equipment by a simple gun shot to the radar and scopes.
Another thing, the Hovat with Gatling gun , radar etc, has made them extremely heavy , additional armour will make it too heavy for operation.
I think SAF should look at using some of our M113 upgrade into the Hovat or the latest Machbet.With the arrival of Bionix, we should have some surplus M113.
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Your point abt cost-effectiveness is precisely the point why I made across at first, in relation. i.e. that IDF lacks a vehicle like the BIONIX to engage targets in BUA, and they have to rely on their SPAAG to do it, which was not designed to be as heavily armoured as what we see nowadays.Originally posted by gary1910:To said that the the Israeli M113 has thin armour is not true.
The Hovet is also a open hatch system, look at the gunner on the 2nd pic.
I believe the IDF dun really like to use it to fight in BUA becos it is simply not cost effective, becos the Hovat with all it's expensive FCS and radar, it is just too costly to lose the expensive equipment by a simple gun shot to the radar and scopes.
Another thing, the Hovat with Gatling gun , radar etc, has made them extremely heavy , additional armour will make it too heavy for operation.
I think SAF should look at using some of our M113 upgrade into the Hovat or the latest Machbet.With the arrival of Bionix, we should have some surplus M113. -
The israeli army does use the abrahams. They have been buying their MBTs from the USA since god knows when. do you actually think a M113 would supply sufficient protection and firepower for the ground troops should the event of a full-scale war between the arabs and israelis break out? NO.
anyway just another question. do you think that the singapore made Bionex (think its spelt this way) is powerful enough to provide the protection and firepower needed?
hey... maybe one of the reasons why we think the spore got has never bought a MBT is bcos' we already have tank killers ie Apache AH-64