SAF MBT(Main Battle Tank)
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Hmmmppff!!Originally posted by panzerjager:The new buying philosophy of SAF is to buy a handful of new stuff, trial them out to see if good enough or not, if good enough, the next batch must be improved....
If they are going to exercise such a mentality over all purchases, they are still going to lose big time as this is never a realistic method, having to give leeway to the industry for their economies of scale - if you want me to build just in the tens or hundreds, you better pay me more - minimum order quantity. Else, SAF go fly kite! Don't bloody waste industry's time and money!!!!
Call themselves 'Swift & Decisive' some more!!
35 years already still boasting about something that is almost 50 years old!!! Or more!!!
So take them so long to officially announce that SM1 would be replaced, huh? With what they want in their wish list, even if it was true, cow come home already!!! As if such a weapon would be feasible...and they will justify it to say that only it will mean SAF's needs! What rubbish!!!! Swift & decisive my foot!!!! -
Originally posted by Joe Black:
oh so true
I don't know how many times we have discussed this suggestion about simply replacing SM1 or a tank with a missile based armoured fight vehicle in the forum, it is simply NOT practical both in war and during peace time. How many times do we have to re-iterate the arguments before before can be convinced that doing away direct fire platform with Spike firing platform is impractical.
1. Each spike missile cost a lot more than a tank shell. I can't see the justification to use a spike missile to destroy a bunker or an APC.
very true however the tank could have other things like rockets or RPG's
2. How many spike can 1 AFV carry compared to the number of tank shells? The logistic support for the spike launcher, storage tubes, place and the missiles are far greater than the tank shells. Thus, once again, less "rounds" per vehicle.
Well the new spike it meant to replace the hellfire for the Israel army i think....so it shld work like the hellfire where u can fire of 1 missile every 4 seconds or so.....meaning a much higher rate of fire
3. Rate of fire... A 120mm gun can fire much faster rate than the number of spikes that can be launched. Don't have the exact fire, but I suspect, one can't fire more than 2 Spike per minute, whereas, the 120mm gun has a norm of 6 rounds per minute.
once again taking it to be like the hell fire if it can be fired from a AH-64 and from bronco's then i doubt it'd be a problem.
4. Fire on the move for 120mm gun that is stabalised can be as high as 80-90% accurate. Try firing a spike on the move - impractical or even impossible.
The US army , British army and German army once toyed around with that idea but found out that it was not practical as it would be too expensive and not as good so they scrapped it and decided to upgrade their tanks.
5. Doctrine has to change. Even the most advanced armies in the world, namely the US Army, IDF, British Army or even the German Army do not have such radical ideas. Look at US Army next generation armoured vehicle, still gun based. Same goes with the rest of the armies in the world. In fact the Germans were toying with 140mm gun. I wonder whose "bright" idea within the armour units came up with the "brilliant" missiles firing AFV to replace gun-based and that the BG Tan could buy into such ideas.
It was to be something like the Bradleybut with a 30-75mm gun and carried some 16 missiles?read about it long ago lah but yea even those guys found it useless how can the SAF consider it?!dunno wad they thinking also....but then that was 10-20 years ago maybe times have changed but i doubt it -
The Gil Spike is used to take on the PT-91M MBT,not like what u say fit on AFV.Presently,SAF only ATGM is Milan which is already outdated and cannot penetrate PT-91M MBT!
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Any news that is such a missile weapon - mounted in boxed clusters of 10-20, each box the size of say a twin Stinger-Avenger box launcher, yes but holding up to 10-20 guided munitions.Originally posted by |-|05|:The US army , British army and German army once toyed around with that idea but found out that it was not practical as it would be too expensive and not as good so they scrapped it and decided to upgrade their tanks.
It was to be something like the Bradleybut with a 30-75mm gun and carried some 16 missiles?read about it long ago lah but yea even those guys found it useless how can the SAF consider it?!dunno wad they thinking also....but then that was 10-20 years ago maybe times have changed but i doubt it
Release mechanism is only barrage salvo launch against massed targets, with flight envelope of each munition totally erratic and apparently mis-guided but eventually do hit individual intended targets. The visual effect from target point of view is that the launch platform is totally shrouded in the exhaust plumes of the whole barrage of munitions. The munitions may be course-updated to either engage individual targets or all massed upon one single target. -
Milan 2 should be tandem warhead weaponOriginally posted by zenden9:The Gil Spike is used to take on the PT-91M MBT,not like what u say fit on AFV.Presently,SAF only ATGM is Milan which is already outdated and cannot penetrate PT-91M MBT! -
Errr....since SPIKE can be mounted on a Flyer LSV, I see no reason why it cannot be mounted on an AFV like Bionix.Originally posted by zenden9:The Gil Spike is used to take on the PT-91M MBT,not like what u say fit on AFV.Presently,SAF only ATGM is Milan which is already outdated and cannot penetrate PT-91M MBT!
US TOW system was mounted on a jeep before provisions / mods were made to mount in on the Bradleys.
ST Engg needs to update the Bionix turret to allow it to fire the SPIKEs in hull down positions.
Do note that the Bradleys (apparently) cannot fire their TOWs on the move.....the system is not stablised....
Southpark
The Dude -
BMP-3 TRACKED INFANTRY COMBAT VEHICLE, RUSSIA
The main armament of the BMP-3 is a 100mm 2A70 semi-automatic rifled gun/missile launcher, which is stabilised in two axes and can fire either 3UOF HE-FRAG (High Explosive-Fragmentation) rounds or 3UBK10 anti-tank guided missiles. Effective range for the HE-FRAG round is 4,000m. Muzzle velocity is 250m/s. 22 HE-FRAG rounds can be carried in the automatic loader, total ammunition load being 40 rounds. Rate of fire is 10 rounds per minute.
The gun fires the 3UBK10 anti-tank guided missile round, which consists of the 9M117 laser beamriding missile and container. This missile is used in the Bastion missile system (NATO designation AT-10 Stabber). The missile can engage tanks with explosive reactive armour (ERA) as well as slow, low-flying targets such as helicopters. Range is 100 to 4,000m. Hit probability is given as at least 0.8 with armour penetration of 600mm. Ammunition load is 8 rounds.
Armament also includes a 30mm 2A72 automatic gun, stabilised in two axes, which fires 3UOR-6 and 3UOR-8 rounds. Ammunition load is 500 AP (Armour-Piercing) or HE-FRAG rounds. Rate of fire is more than 300 rounds/min and range is 1,500 to 2,000m. There are also one 7.62mm PKT coaxial machine gun and two 7.62 bow machine guns.
SELF-PROTECTION
The BMP-3 can be fitted with the Arena Defensive Aids suite, developed by KBM Kolumna. The system consists of target detection and tracking radar, computer and processing unit and protective ammunition. The system is automatic: the radar passes tracking data to the computer, which selects the number of ammunition rounds and controls firing. The selected ammunition is then expelled as a directed field. The vehicle can also be fitted with the Shtora defensive aids system which counters anti-tank guided weapons with SACLOS (semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight).
The hull and turret are constructed from aluminium alloy armour. Protection also includes steel external straps fitted on the turret, side armour displacement panels and a double-bottom at the front of the vehicle. NBC equipment includes a filter ventilation unit as well as hermetic sealing. This system is located in the rear of the vehicle, as is the ejection cooling system which, coupled with the reduced length of the gas ventilation system exhaust, serves to reduce the tank's thermal signature.
FIRE CONTROL AND OBSERVATION
The fire control system is automatic with manual override for both gunner and commander. It includes a 1V539 ballistic computer, 2E52 electro-mechanical armament stabiliser and 1D16 laser rangefinder. The gunner has a 1K13-2 main sight, a combined image-intensified day/night sight and PPD-1 standby day sight. The commander has a 1PZ-10 day sight and TKN-3 combined day and image-intensified night sight.
The French company SAGEM, with Kurganmashzavod and Peleng of Belarus, have developed the Namut thermal sight for the BMP-3. This sight is based on the SAGEM Athos eight - twelve micron three field of view thermal imager and is fitted to the BMP-3 ICV's delivered to the United Arab Emirates.
PROPULSION
The engine is the V-shaped UTD-29 diesel engine, which produces 500hp. The transversal mount of the engine enables the wheel drive, cardan shaft for the waterjet drives and electric bilge pump to be located underneath. Transmission is hydromechanical with a hydrostatic gearbox for the steering gear and power take-off for the water jets.
The BMP-3 vehicle weighs 18.7t and is capable of a maximum speed of 70km/h and range of 600km on roads.
This one better can fire missile and rounds,lighter than MBT,carry infantry ,ALL IN ONE!
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Originally posted by zenden9:BMP-3 TRACKED INFANTRY COMBAT VEHICLE, RUSSIA
The main armament of the BMP-3 is a 100mm 2A70 semi-automatic rifled gun/missile launcher, which is stabilised in two axes and can fire either 3UOF HE-FRAG (High Explosive-Fragmentation) rounds or 3UBK10 anti-tank guided missiles. Effective range for the HE-FRAG round is 4,000m. Muzzle velocity is 250m/s. 22 HE-FRAG rounds can be carried in the automatic loader, total ammunition load being 40 rounds. Rate of fire is 10 rounds per minute.
The gun fires the 3UBK10 anti-tank guided missile round, which consists of the 9M117 laser beamriding missile and container. This missile is used in the Bastion missile system (NATO designation AT-10 Stabber). The missile can engage tanks with explosive reactive armour (ERA) as well as slow, low-flying targets such as helicopters. Range is 100 to 4,000m. Hit probability is given as at least 0.8 with armour penetration of 600mm. Ammunition load is 8 rounds.
Armament also includes a 30mm 2A72 automatic gun, stabilised in two axes, which fires 3UOR-6 and 3UOR-8 rounds. Ammunition load is 500 AP (Armour-Piercing) or HE-FRAG rounds. Rate of fire is more than 300 rounds/min and range is 1,500 to 2,000m. There are also one 7.62mm PKT coaxial machine gun and two 7.62 bow machine guns.
SELF-PROTECTION
The BMP-3 can be fitted with the Arena Defensive Aids suite, developed by KBM Kolumna. The system consists of target detection and tracking radar, computer and processing unit and protective ammunition. The system is automatic: the radar passes tracking data to the computer, which selects the number of ammunition rounds and controls firing. The selected ammunition is then expelled as a directed field. The vehicle can also be fitted with the Shtora defensive aids system which counters anti-tank guided weapons with SACLOS (semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight).
The hull and turret are constructed from aluminium alloy armour. Protection also includes steel external straps fitted on the turret, side armour displacement panels and a double-bottom at the front of the vehicle. NBC equipment includes a filter ventilation unit as well as hermetic sealing. This system is located in the rear of the vehicle, as is the ejection cooling system which, coupled with the reduced length of the gas ventilation system exhaust, serves to reduce the tank's thermal signature.
FIRE CONTROL AND OBSERVATION
The fire control system is automatic with manual override for both gunner and commander. It includes a 1V539 ballistic computer, 2E52 electro-mechanical armament stabiliser and 1D16 laser rangefinder. The gunner has a 1K13-2 main sight, a combined image-intensified day/night sight and PPD-1 standby day sight. The commander has a 1PZ-10 day sight and TKN-3 combined day and image-intensified night sight.
The French company SAGEM, with Kurganmashzavod and Peleng of Belarus, have developed the Namut thermal sight for the BMP-3. This sight is based on the SAGEM Athos eight - twelve micron three field of view thermal imager and is fitted to the BMP-3 ICV's delivered to the United Arab Emirates.
PROPULSION
The engine is the V-shaped UTD-29 diesel engine, which produces 500hp. The transversal mount of the engine enables the wheel drive, cardan shaft for the waterjet drives and electric bilge pump to be located underneath. Transmission is hydromechanical with a hydrostatic gearbox for the steering gear and power take-off for the water jets.
The BMP-3 vehicle weighs 18.7t and is capable of a maximum speed of 70km/h and range of 600km on roads.
Sometimes just wonder how the Russians do it...packing all that ammo! BIONIX itself only has 260 rds of cannon ammo onboard and this guy has almost double for the same calibre, and that's just the secondary armament! BMP3 is a technical marvel in terms of firepower and mobility, but protection is lowdown of course...
This one better can fire missile and rounds,lighter than MBT,carry infantry ,ALL IN ONE! -
Sometimes just wonder how the Russians do it...packing all that ammo! BIONIX itself only has 260 rds of cannon ammo onboard and this guy has almost double for the same calibre, and that's just the secondary armament! BMP3 is a technical marvel in terms of firepower and mobility, but protection is lowdown of course...Originally posted by zenden9:BMP-3 TRACKED INFANTRY COMBAT VEHICLE, RUSSIA
The main armament of the BMP-3 is a 100mm 2A70 semi-automatic rifled gun/missile launcher, which is stabilised in two axes and can fire either 3UOF HE-FRAG (High Explosive-Fragmentation) rounds or 3UBK10 anti-tank guided missiles. Effective range for the HE-FRAG round is 4,000m. Muzzle velocity is 250m/s. 22 HE-FRAG rounds can be carried in the automatic loader, total ammunition load being 40 rounds. Rate of fire is 10 rounds per minute.
The gun fires the 3UBK10 anti-tank guided missile round, which consists of the 9M117 laser beamriding missile and container. This missile is used in the Bastion missile system (NATO designation AT-10 Stabber). The missile can engage tanks with explosive reactive armour (ERA) as well as slow, low-flying targets such as helicopters. Range is 100 to 4,000m. Hit probability is given as at least 0.8 with armour penetration of 600mm. Ammunition load is 8 rounds.
Armament also includes a 30mm 2A72 automatic gun, stabilised in two axes, which fires 3UOR-6 and 3UOR-8 rounds. Ammunition load is 500 AP (Armour-Piercing) or HE-FRAG rounds. Rate of fire is more than 300 rounds/min and range is 1,500 to 2,000m. There are also one 7.62mm PKT coaxial machine gun and two 7.62 bow machine guns.
SELF-PROTECTION
The BMP-3 can be fitted with the Arena Defensive Aids suite, developed by KBM Kolumna. The system consists of target detection and tracking radar, computer and processing unit and protective ammunition. The system is automatic: the radar passes tracking data to the computer, which selects the number of ammunition rounds and controls firing. The selected ammunition is then expelled as a directed field. The vehicle can also be fitted with the Shtora defensive aids system which counters anti-tank guided weapons with SACLOS (semi-automatic command-to-line-of-sight).
The hull and turret are constructed from aluminium alloy armour. Protection also includes steel external straps fitted on the turret, side armour displacement panels and a double-bottom at the front of the vehicle. NBC equipment includes a filter ventilation unit as well as hermetic sealing. This system is located in the rear of the vehicle, as is the ejection cooling system which, coupled with the reduced length of the gas ventilation system exhaust, serves to reduce the tank's thermal signature.
FIRE CONTROL AND OBSERVATION
The fire control system is automatic with manual override for both gunner and commander. It includes a 1V539 ballistic computer, 2E52 electro-mechanical armament stabiliser and 1D16 laser rangefinder. The gunner has a 1K13-2 main sight, a combined image-intensified day/night sight and PPD-1 standby day sight. The commander has a 1PZ-10 day sight and TKN-3 combined day and image-intensified night sight.
The French company SAGEM, with Kurganmashzavod and Peleng of Belarus, have developed the Namut thermal sight for the BMP-3. This sight is based on the SAGEM Athos eight - twelve micron three field of view thermal imager and is fitted to the BMP-3 ICV's delivered to the United Arab Emirates.
PROPULSION
The engine is the V-shaped UTD-29 diesel engine, which produces 500hp. The transversal mount of the engine enables the wheel drive, cardan shaft for the waterjet drives and electric bilge pump to be located underneath. Transmission is hydromechanical with a hydrostatic gearbox for the steering gear and power take-off for the water jets.
The BMP-3 vehicle weighs 18.7t and is capable of a maximum speed of 70km/h and range of 600km on roads.
This one better can fire missile and rounds,lighter than MBT,carry infantry ,ALL IN ONE! -
Read b/w the lines, and consider the terrain we operate in.Originally posted by |-|05|:The US army , British army and German army once toyed around with that idea but found out that it was not practical as it would be too expensive and not as good so they scrapped it and decided to upgrade their tanks.
It was to be something like the Bradleybut with a 30-75mm gun and carried some 16 missiles?read about it long ago lah but yea even those guys found it useless how can the SAF consider it?!dunno wad they thinking also....but then that was 10-20 years ago maybe times have changed but i doubt it
Established Facts
- SAF needs and wants a light-med. tank. No Abrams MBTs-like as the core
- This is due to forestted terrain with hills and mountains, and rubber plantations. There is little open plain for heavy MBT-operations. For strategic terrain, can call in your Tempests if they do fit, e.g. open highways
- Now because of the forestted terrain and mountains, etc. visibility is limited.
Hypothesised Conclusions
Given the facts:
- SAF wants a light-med armour tank to be able to operate in rubber plantation-like enviro.
- But light-med = relatively less protection
- As visibility is limited, the answer might lie in being able to destroy the enemy before you even see them, hence the indirect fire idea.
- Light tank = cannot carry heavy calibre shell weapons. The famous Sheredian is one such example (despite that, it remained in service for almost 20-30 years!); hence the idea of missiles thought they are expensive.
- Also, missiles are guided - hence accuracy goes up and chances of being detected by the enemy is less (less smoke, noise, etc.). You do not wish to miss a P-91 on yr 1st shot and face its 125mm gun.
Hypothesised gun system
- Likely to be a 120mm gun / mortar system
- Else a short barrel, low recoil 155mm gun
- 120mm could fire Israel LAHAT round / SPIKE missiles.
- There are guided / autonomous 120mm mortar rounds in the market.
- For 155mm, can fire autonomous BONUS / SMART cargo rounds...
- With 155mm, can fire missiles aka Sheredian...
Southpark
The Dude -
it was a research..they ditched it because too expensive and they did not believe it would workOriginally posted by panzerjager:Any news that is such a missile weapon - mounted in boxed clusters of 10-20, each box the size of say a twin Stinger-Avenger box launcher, yes but holding up to 10-20 guided munitions.
Release mechanism is only barrage salvo launch against massed targets, with flight envelope of each munition totally erratic and apparently mis-guided but eventually do hit individual intended targets. The visual effect from target point of view is that the launch platform is totally shrouded in the exhaust plumes of the whole barrage of munitions. The munitions may be course-updated to either engage individual targets or all massed upon one single target. -
what abt a light tank that has a direct data link with UAV.... especially if the tanks going to mount indirect fire weaponry, it might be helpful.Heck, if u wanna go all the way, might as well have each tank have its own organic UAV like a tailsitter... A bit too loony, maybe?
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darn, double post.
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Need not have own tailsitter per se.Originally posted by Blockhead:what abt a light tank that has a direct data link with UAV.... especially if the tanks going to mount indirect fire weaponry, it might be helpful.Heck, if u wanna go all the way, might as well have each tank have its own organic UAV like a tailsitter... A bit too loony, maybe?
Mix of FO (Fwd observers), AWACS, and UAVs. Point is to integrate it as a digital battlefield.
With cargo rounds like SMART and BONUS, u only need to know roughly where they are. The munition is smart enough to scan adn find the enemy.
Southpark
The Dude -
Hey guys, can anyone tell me how i can lay hold of the armour coffee table book?
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http://www.knox.army.mil/armormag/mj96/3malaya96.pdf
Please read this carefully and understand why Armor still hangs on to the SM-1s till this day.
Very relevant in understanding their NGT requirement....
Southpark
The Dude -
The link fail! Are u sure Southpark?Originally posted by southpark2000:http://www.knox.army.mil/armormag/mj96/3malaya96.pdf
Please read this carefully and understand why Armor still hangs on to the SM-1s till this day.
Very relevant in understanding their NGT requirement....
Southpark
The Dude -
remove the "
" at the end of the url and it will work, interesting article..
when u are at it, you can take a look this: http://www.knox.army.mil/armormag/jf02/1MurphysLaws02.pdf
especially the comics at page 2, wonder when SAF will start using this.. -
Thks!
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Arena Defensive Aids suite, developed by KBM Kolumna.
Best that we deploy this. Protects tank from most shaped-charged weapons (BILL, Milan, RPG, SPIKE, etc) with the exception of EFP charges. Can't defeat AP rounds though....
Southpark
The Dude -
Huh? What are you talking about? that is NOT add-on or applique armour. The defensive aid suite is simply to a laser and IR detector, not unlike an aircraft RWR. It detects laser emitted from laser range finders (such as those used by tanks and ATGM targeting sights), radar emission, such as the millimeter wave used in some precision weapons and the longbow radar, and IR signatures from ATGM missiles motor. Some of them, like the Israeli and Swedish version have some jamming capability. A defensive aid suite serves to warn tank crew of weapons or missiles targeting the tank so that the crew can take evasion actions.Originally posted by southpark2000:Best that we deploy this. Protects tank from most shaped-charged weapons (BILL, Milan, RPG, SPIKE, etc) with the exception of EFP charges. Can't defeat AP rounds though....
I think you got it confused with tank armour. -
Errr...the Arena is a defense system. It comprises radar to detect incoming missiles within a 50m radius and deploys munitions to destroy them.Originally posted by Joe Black:Huh? What are you talking about? that is NOT add-on or applique armour. The defensive aid suite is simply to a laser and IR detector, not unlike an aircraft RWR. It detects laser emitted from laser range finders (such as those used by tanks and ATGM targeting sights), radar emission, such as the millimeter wave used in some precision weapons and the longbow radar, and IR signatures from ATGM missiles motor. Some of them, like the Israeli and Swedish version have some jamming capability. A defensive aid suite serves to warn tank crew of weapons or missiles targeting the tank so that the crew can take evasion actions.
I think you got it confused with tank armour.
http://www.pml.tno.nl/en/pt/arena.html
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/IMAGES/arena001.html -
The system is only tested with some outdated ATGM and no combat experience and record! Plus the system itself costs more than a tank! Only time will tell whether this system is worth getting for the tank!Originally posted by southpark2000:Errr...the Arena is a defense system. It comprises radar to detect incoming missiles within a 50m radius and deploys munitions to destroy them.
http://www.pml.tno.nl/en/pt/arena.html
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/IMAGES/arena001.html
By the way,some of the most advance MBT like M1A1 which cost 5 million dollars can be destroy by just a $100 RPG-7
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Zenden9,Originally posted by zenden9:The system is only tested with some outdated ATGM and no combat experience and record! Plus the system itself costs more than a tank! Only time will tell whether this system is worth getting for the tank!
By the way,some of the most advance MBT like M1A1 which cost 5 million dollars can be destroy by just a $100 RPG-7
Nice pic....i like that
Need to u'std the Arena system first. It has a radar and responds to projectiles of speeds typical of missiles and RPGs. Small arms fire are intelligently ignored. The system fires projectiles - somewhat like firing a claymore mine to disrupt the flight path, or destroy the round....protects the tank by preventing the formation of the hot jet of HEAT rounds.....
Southpark
The Dude -
Misleading pic.
Anyway, while an RPG can disable an Abrams with a critical hit, the damage control and fire suppresson systems usually leave the tank quite recoverable, that is, if you could recover a 70 ton tank in an hostile area.
The knocked out Abrams pictures are decieving. What happens when any piece of their hardware is disabled in a hostile area and cannot be recovered, the americans have this pratice of knocking out their own equipment to prevent it from falling into enemy hands.
Yes, they have that much money that they are willing to shoot up, call in missiles and drop smart bombs on their own disabled tanks on a mission over something as simple as an engine fire. In which case you would get a burnt out hulk like in the picture.
The only very serious damage I've seen caused to the Abrams by enemy fire was by an IED which flipped the tank into a ditch.