SAF MBT(Main Battle Tank)
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Here is a link to a ATGM called 'Javelin' to show u how devastating it is.'Spike is something similiar to 'Javelin'. The tank used in the testing is a T-72 MBT.Originally posted by kingkhong79:yeah agree totally wif u on the terrain part.thats why the saf chose to develop the Bionix instead of buting an IFV off the shelf. the western IFVs like the Bradley and Warrior were simply too large and heavy for our liking. Notice the Bionix is very compact with very low frontal width,juz rright for squeezing in between trees in forested areas.The replacement for the sm1 will likely follow the dimensions of the Bionix and maybe juz about a few tonnes heavier.because the sm1 replacement needs to be light in order to be able to cross bridges,therefore a 120mm gun will not be mounted due to the high stresses imposed on the light chassis by firing of the gun.the main gun will definitely be 105mm.tat should be enough to penetrate the frontal armour of the PT91 being fielded by our neighbour.this has been shown by the Israeli merkavas mounted with 105mm during the lebanon war.the sm1 is being used more as a fire support vehicle rather than a dedicated tank killer since our neighbour doesnt have much tanks for us to kill anyway.tat explains why the replacement for the sm1 has been so slow in coming.the tank-killing part is better left to the Ah64 apaches.the sm1 will juz provide fire support and hold ground.i tink this talk about a system with missiles instead of a direct fire gun is a load of crap by the saf.dont know wat they tinking of.
some guys were talking about mounting the Spikes on a chassis to produce a missile system.taats workable but the Spike with its shaped charge is more for blowing small holes through armour to penetrate them.tats wat they do.juz good for blowing small holes through metal.if u r talking about a fire support system in which our sm1 is primarily being used for, then u need a direct fire main gun that can fire armour piercing and high explosive rounds.
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/default.asp?target=jslide1.htm -
The Javelin, being similar to SPIKE, is considered for infantry level kind of portable ATGM. Given that, one has to compare the lethality of such weapons together against other classes like helicopter launched (Hellfire/HOT/AT-6) and air-launched (Maverick/LGB/AS30) etc.Originally posted by zenden9:Here is a link to a ATGM called 'Javelin' to show u how devastating it is.'Spike is something similiar to 'Javelin'. The tank used in the testing is a T-72 MBT.
http://www.strategypage.com/gallery/default.asp?target=jslide1.htm
The kind of weapon effect on the T-72 is more associated with the results of direct hit by aerial bombs/LGB or Maverick missile given the size and effects of their payloads on heavy armour. You have to seriously doubt that an infantry-level ATGM is that lethal. Either that the weapon used was totally souped-up to a high payload, or that the target was innuoucously pre-conditioned for the demo.
Knowing the track record of the weapons industry in the US especially missile technology (refer movie "Pentagon Wars" depicting development history of Bradley and gist of some other Cold War weapons systems), have to note this is not an operational deployment video. -
I read somewhere that there was a case during Desert Storm where a Bradley took out 3 T-72s with its 25mm.
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For your information, dun forget, any Soviet weapon/equipment (especially key weapons systems) exported out to non-Warsaw pact countries before end of Cold-War were all under-performing models (so called 'monkey' models by what some defence analysts said the Russians themselves termed them), with respect to top-of-the-line Russian/Soviet versionsOriginally posted by Typhoon:I read somewhere that there was a case during Desert Storm where a Bradley took out 3 T-72s with its 25mm.
So dun ever compare the performance of US/Allied weapons during Gulf War, is not accurate representation of Russian technology -
In retrospect, we got the Mistral missile sometime just after Gulf War (should not be because of it being war-proven, because defence buys by us are not so quick)Originally posted by panzerjager:For your information, dun forget, any Soviet weapon/equipment (especially key weapons systems) exported out to non-Warsaw pact countries before end of Cold-War were all under-performing models (so called 'monkey' models by what some defence analysts said the Russians themselves termed them), with respect to top-of-the-line Russian/Soviet versions
So dun ever compare the performance of US/Allied weapons during Gulf War, is not accurate representation of Russian technology
However, after that we quickly (and quite secretly at first) brought in the Igla. Due in part to Iraqi successes against US/Coalition aircraft during Gulf War 1.
Just drawing my point not to underestimate Russian technology and not to think Western designs are holy grail in any sense -
I think it was due to the fact we cannot get Stinger AAM from US after 9/11 because of very strict control! Stinger is laser guide while Igla is still IR seeker although better than SA-7! Igla is SAF only Russian arsenal!Originally posted by panzerjager:In retrospect, we got the Mistral missile sometime just after Gulf War (should not be because of it being war-proven, because defence buys by us are not so quick)
However, after that we quickly (and quite secretly at first) brought in the Igla. Due in part to Iraqi successes against US/Coalition aircraft during Gulf War 1.
Just drawing my point not to underestimate Russian technology and not to think Western designs are holy grail in any sense -
Stinger is IR guided. May be by now laser fuzed. But definitely still IR guided.
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I suspect the reason we use the Igla is more because of maths... while one Igla is inferior to a Stinger in terms of hit probability, two Iglas will exceed the Stinger in preformance, and two units of Igla probably cost less then one Stinger itself.
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We have basically three type of VSHORAD missiles namely the RBS70, Mistral and the Igla-1.
Even the our Rapier can be classified as a VSHORAD system but certainly not man portable, therefore not in the list of MANPADS.
Some facts abt them :
RBS 70:
Laser beam riding with effective blast and framentataion warhead and a unjammable laser proximity fuze.
Warhead : n/a Range: 8km Weight :16.5Kg
Mistral :
Cool Infrared seeker.
Warhead : 3Kg Range: 6km Weight :18.7Kg
Igla-1:
Cool Infrared seeker.
Warhead : 1.15Kg Range:5.2 km Weight :10.6Kg
Both RBS-70 & Mistral are not truly man portable becos they are too heavy & thus need a tripod mount.
VSHORAD system like the Igla, Stinger, Starstreak or Chinese equivalent are low weight enough to avoid using a mount, therefore more portable.
Another advantages of Igla-1 is that it's very cheap as compare to Mistral & RBS-70, which mean that SAF could have large number of them.
Eventhough they might not be as effective but certainly good enough against Helos which is the trend in modern warfare.
I heard tat the SAF is testing Igla based AFV for the future, I hope that even infantry SP coy will have a small battery of them against future threat of LOHs & AHs.
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http://www.milparade.ru/market/paid/018/08_03.htm
The Igla promotion in Singapore started in 1996 after signing of a contract on the supply of 440 systems, the training of Singapore specialists and the joint research and development for a period of 2002. The 440 systems were supplied to Singapore in 1997.
A draft contract on the Igla production in Singapore on a basis of the Russian license and with the Russian technical assistance was submitted to the Singapore side in May 1997. The contract was signed, and 3,000 missiles are expected to be assembled within five years, Kheifits said. -
the igla down 12 out of 29 coalition aircraft during the 1st gulf war. any way this is not a place to talk about AA missiles since the thread is about MBT
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Which is why Russian equipment are always under-rated by the world just because they are cheap. However, cheap does not mean cheap-skate, and it's the track record of their weapon performance against Western targets (which had been designed to counter them in the first place and yet failed) proven in conflicts that matterOriginally posted by cavsg:the igla down 12 out of 29 coalition aircraft during the 1st gulf war. any way this is not a place to talk about AA missiles since the thread is about MBT
So dun ever compare Iraqi (or any non Soviet-bloc) T-72 against a Western tank to draw on your collective judgments that Western tank technology is the ultimate absolute -
Dun misunderstand me, I'm not trying to put down Russian equipment in any way... I was just asking if the 25mm on the BIONIX is capable of similar performance against our good neighbour's MBT (seeing how the BIONIX uses the same M242 25mm chain gun found on the Bradley and Apache)
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Two contracts on the supply of 12 Dzhigit launcher units for the Igla system and the placing of the Igla system on a foreign-made chassis were signed in March and May of 1997. The launcher units were supplied in January 1999.
Now, what chassis is the Igla system fitted on? Bionix or Ultra chassis? -
Any link to prove the statistic?Originally posted by cavsg:the igla down 12 out of 29 coalition aircraft during the 1st gulf war. any way this is not a place to talk about AA missiles since the thread is about MBT -
Infantry bipedial walker chassis...Originally posted by eurofighter:Now, what chassis is the Igla system fitted on? Bionix or Ultra chassis? -
http://www.aviationnow.com/content/publication/awst/20021209/avi_news.htmOriginally posted by zenden9:Any link to prove the statistic? -
Guards Light Strike Vehicle, been in public a few times and on NDP parade at padang also.Originally posted by eurofighter:Now, what chassis is the Igla system fitted on? Bionix or Ultra chassis? -
well, that depends. are u expecting the mbt to shoot back?Originally posted by Typhoon:Dun misunderstand me, I'm not trying to put down Russian equipment in any way... I was just asking if the 25mm on the BIONIX is capable of similar performance against our good neighbour's MBT (seeing how the BIONIX uses the same M242 25mm chain gun found on the Bradley and Apache)
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Yeah, there is this philosophy in AFV design - you have to be equivalently protected against what you can kill. Now if you are saying that an IFV can kill an MBT, then the design philosophy calls for it that your IFV must be able to take a hit from the equivalent MBT of the one you just killed - is there logic in it, given the current technology ? No.Originally posted by Blockhead:well, that depends. are u expecting the mbt to shoot back?
You have to throw out all the so-called active armour solutions e.g. SHTORA out the window. Having such systems just means even more so that your vehicle cannot afford to take a hit and survive at all. So placing active defence aids against your threat does not answer this problem. -
I saw a convoy of M113s fitted with twin rail launcher rails PLUS a radar radome.Originally posted by eurofighter:Now, what chassis is the Igla system fitted on? Bionix or Ultra chassis?
I didn't get a good look then but the radome could be mounted on a pneumatic mast at the rear of the vehicle.
Was surprised at the number of vehicles......making their way into AMQ camp. Probably in operational service already. -
Something like euro 'Roland'?Originally posted by Fairyland:I saw a convoy of M113s fitted with twin rail launcher rails PLUS a radar radome.
I didn't get a good look then but the radome could be mounted on a pneumatic mast at the rear of the vehicle.
Was surprised at the number of vehicles......making their way into AMQ camp. Probably in operational service already. -
What u saw was Roland system on M113 belong to 3 SADA in Ang Moi Quee camp. They have around 20 units replacing the RPS 70 on V200.Originally posted by Fairyland:I saw a convoy of M113s fitted with twin rail launcher rails PLUS a radar radome.
I didn't get a good look then but the radome could be mounted on a pneumatic mast at the rear of the vehicle.
Was surprised at the number of vehicles......making their way into AMQ camp. Probably in operational service already. -
I don't think so.......the overall package is too small to fit into the M113. Also I didn't see any microwave director unless it's in the millimetric wave band! Or it's laser beam riding?Originally posted by cutebug:What u saw was Roland system on M113 belong to 3 SADA in Ang Moi Quee camp. They have around 20 units replacing the RPS 70 on V200.
Assuming it's still a SACLOS system.
The radar radome looked like it's covering a search radar not a parabolic dish.
I think it's Igla with PSTAR maybe? -
that was the igla on m113 chasis lah. but they are no longer there.Originally posted by cutebug:What u saw was Roland system on M113 belong to 3 SADA in Ang Moi Quee camp. They have around 20 units replacing the RPS 70 on V200.