New gun a cock-up ?
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heh heh... reminds me of the time we found durians out field... wire-gloves + bayonet... perfect combi for a quick snack during a defence mission...Originally posted by ferret69:As James Dunnigan said, the bayonet these days is used for everything BUT bayonetting people. It makes a good multi-purpose knife and peeps in the field love multi-purpose stuff.
my men had the time of their lives... too bad i don't eat that stuff... -
it doesn't matter where the LAM is located, there are 2 small 'holes' for u to move it up/down and left/right for any gun's LAM (except those cheapo ones)....if it is on the left side, then if u move closer, the dot will move to the left and down and vice versa when u move further away. perhaps they used 100m as zero-ing distance. once again....its a rough gauge, no doubt ur round will engage but how much is the MOA is another thing...LAM is secondary aiming, dun bet ur last dollar on it....if there is dense fog, ur LAM is practically useless....Originally posted by spencer99:Hi,
Thanks for your inputs. I did think of the distance factor. But the laser pointer is below the sight and "offset" to the left. it is at the center of the lower left quadrant of the sight.
Is that normal? Any SAR21 users care to comment. -
An assualt rifle is meant to last a long time. Even if the SAR21 was factory zeroed. that does not mean that 10 years down the road it is still zeroed right? From the previous post, it seems that we can change the zeroing for the LAM which is good. but how about the built in sight, can it be zeroed?
Or maybe even if it drift it doesn't really make much difference. because for most engagements we don't really have much chance to aim properly. just squeeze so aga aga can already.
Like when they move from 7.62 to 5.56 it is because the longer range is not much use because most soldiers cannot hit anything above 300m with their rifles.
If you see footages of the current fighting in Iraq, most of the time see the US and insurgents anyhow spray. Some like didn't even use the sights. -
Stupid waste of ammo. Somehow, I never did subscribe to the idea of squeezing off aimlessly to provide large volume of fire. The Yanks maybe able to do it because of their logistics support, but I doubt that it is a proper thing to do.Originally posted by spencer99:because for most engagements we don't really have much chance to aim properly. just squeeze so aga aga can already.
If you see footages of the current fighting in Iraq, most of the time see the US and insurgents anyhow spray. Some like didn't even use the sights.
What if a group is surrounded with little hope of immediate resupply? In fact in Black Hawk Down, some did run out of ammo! -
if i remember correctly, the prefered mode of fire for M16 is burst i.e. in burst mode, the probability of hitting the target within x metres is 85% greater than in single or full-auto
and the first few versions of AR15 was having burst as the 1st selection after safe
for the AK47, the prefered mode is Auto, because the characteristics of the weapon prefers auto-firing. so the first selection after safe is Auto.
So it really depends on mission and situation at that point in time. To provide supressive fire is almost akin to the "spray first - aim later" i.e. keep the enemy's head down first, then realign later ... to have a chance of shooting back. And needless to say ... when you are pinned down, popping a few shots out will provide a morale boost to the other fellas to fire back, when enemy shots are whizzing past your ears. -
emz... bmt ppl now still using m16 right?
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is under ur armpit wad..or near it lah...because it's behind the mag leh.....Originally posted by Shotgun:Err how great? I agree that when it comes to combat loading, the M-16 is FAST. Eject mag, can let it drop for all u care, mag in hand slap in, release bolt carrier, carry on shooting. But wat da heck, u can't have everything right?
In anycase, the mag isn't really at ur armpit, unless u have a really odd way of handling the rifle. Its somewhere near your fore-arm, elbow.
And the per zeroing i think is like that.....The aim is frm the scope which has been engineered intot he body...so they just zero that during production and it should stay unless it get's knock of or something...by which it wld have to return to shop to be refitted and re zeroed again i guess......not sure how it works..... -
my fren just pop and he was using the M16...haha u shld see man...i got 1 fren BMT in unit liao so using SAR21...and the other BMT tekong using M16...they cldnt stop arguing which was better ahhaha some funny shitOriginally posted by Moonstriker:emz... bmt ppl now still using m16 right? -
Of course sar-21 lar! LOL.
Absolutely idiot proof weapon. M-16 still have to align foresight n rear sight, and have ur cheeks in the same position on the but everytime. I believe the Sar-21 the moment u look thru the scope u will know if ur eyes are aligned properly. -
I've handled it during AA2004.Originally posted by Shotgun:Of course sar-21 lar! LOL.
Absolutely idiot proof weapon. M-16 still have to align foresight n rear sight, and have ur cheeks in the same position on the but everytime. I believe the Sar-21 the moment u look thru the scope u will know if ur eyes are aligned properly.
SAR21 is poor in ergonomics
- safety lever is too far from the pistol grip. Have to use left hand to put to safe. It means that the firer will lose his aim momentarily.
- weapon is fat, bulky, and heavier than M16. Unacceptable replacement for a modern rifle. Could be typical Singapore kiasu engineering where mil-specs safety factor is doubled?
- Integrated laser sights is nothing new. I don't know what's the big deal about this selling point. Nothing innovative
- Cocking the rifle is painful if the other hand is holding the pistol grip, because there is an uncomfortable protrusion pressing against the hand.
- magazine not interchangeable with M16, their biggest mistake. The myopic designer think that a transparent magazine is the only solution to view the number of remaining rounds. But a super-cheap solution is to drill some small holes in existing M16 magazine at various height intervals.
- no bayonet attachments. What if round out of ammo? The bayonet is still needed as a psychological backup weapon. Even the US army has sidearms in addition to their M9 bayonet.
A better rifle is the Israeli TAR-21.
I am an reservist in the infantry for 10 years. -
so u handle TAR 21 before stealthguy?
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- Integrated laser sights is nothing new. I don't know what's the big deal about this selling point. Nothing innovative
They did boast SAR21 was the first rifle with integrated laser sights. So it was something new.
- magazine not interchangeable with M16, their biggest mistake.
Why so? SAR21 is to fully replace the M16, and will not be used side by side with M16 in the future.
But a super-cheap solution is to drill some small holes in existing M16 magazine at various height intervals.
You're assuming the new rifle uses the M16 magazine.
Even the US army has sidearms in addition to their M9 bayonet.
Our officers also have sidearms for ops. Not every US soldier has sidearm. Their Special Forces carry Beretta, but their Rangers and Marine MEUs do not carry any sidearm. -
i haven't handled it before so i won't comment on the first few points, butOriginally posted by stealthguy:- magazine not interchangeable with M16, their biggest mistake. The myopic designer think that a transparent magazine is the only solution to view the number of remaining rounds. But a super-cheap solution is to drill some small holes in existing M16 magazine at various height intervals.
- no bayonet attachments. What if round out of ammo? The bayonet is still needed as a psychological backup weapon. Even the US army has sidearms in addition to their M9 bayonet.
A better rifle is the Israeli TAR-21.
I am an reservist in the infantry for 10 years.
- mag was not interchangeable because they were aiming for a BETTER design, not compaitbility... ultimately, its the aims u set out to achieve in the design phase.
- drilling holes into an m16 mag sounds like a good, cheap idea, but i really doubt the feasibility cos of 2 reasons: structure and dirt.
u will basically be changing the structural strength and stress-point by introducing a series of holes into the original design. if u're not careful, the next time u prone and bump your mag on the ground, u'll either get an L-shaped mag, or 2 15-round mags
crude, but not very effective. also, from the perspective of implementation, i dun see how it can be "easily" implemented... u basically gotta dismantle them, base plate, spring and all, and laser-cut these holes into each mag... the alternative will be to introduce a new series of M16 mags with the holes pre-fabricated but if u're spending $$ for new mags anyway, why not just get plastic, transparent ones?
- 2nd reason: dirt. u'll basically be introducing mud, dirt and all kinds of foreign objects into the mag. dirty cartridges can cause stoppages. dirt in the mag-spring can cause stiffness and no-feeding. water in the mag can cause the spring to rust.
i think there are many design design considerations. if i owned a rifle, i might consider cutting holes into the mag to see my rounds. but i think mindef has to think further than that.
since there's no bayonet attachment but troops still need to draw bayonet, what i would REALLY like to see, is a bayonet with a built-in wire cutter like the ones commonly used on an AK47...
bloody simple design, but invaluable in field situation and saves the section the trouble of having to bring a separate wire cutter.
but are the tavor and the sar21 based on the same basic design ST was working with an israeli company at first but they both branched out into different weapons with the same design... -
Hi Stealthguy, u may hv handled the SAr21 during AA2004, but did u fire it?Originally posted by stealthguy:I've handled it during AA2004.
SAR21 is poor in ergonomics
- safety lever is too far from the pistol grip. Have to use left hand to put to safe. It means that the firer will lose his aim momentarily.
- weapon is fat, bulky, and heavier than M16. Unacceptable replacement for a modern rifle. Could be typical Singapore kiasu engineering where mil-specs safety factor is doubled?
- Integrated laser sights is nothing new. I don't know what's the big deal about this selling point. Nothing innovative
- Cocking the rifle is painful if the other hand is holding the pistol grip, because there is an uncomfortable protrusion pressing against the hand.
- magazine not interchangeable with M16, their biggest mistake. The myopic designer think that a transparent magazine is the only solution to view the number of remaining rounds. But a super-cheap solution is to drill some small holes in existing M16 magazine at various height intervals.
- no bayonet attachments. What if round out of ammo? The bayonet is still needed as a psychological backup weapon. Even the US army has sidearms in addition to their M9 bayonet.
A better rifle is the Israeli TAR-21.
I am an reservist in the infantry for 10 years.
"- weapon is fat, bulky, and heavier than M16. Unacceptable replacement for a modern rifle"
I think u miss the point that the SAR21 is heavier then the M16, but comes packed with a laser aiming device, optical scope. Add these onto the M16 & the M16 will be heavier... Besides, if u think the SAR21 is too heavy, its most likely u need to work on ur fitness level...
"- Integrated laser sights is nothing new. I don't know what's the big deal about this selling point. Nothing innovative"
Since u've not fired it, u can't imagine how easy it is now to score full direct hits at the firing range at the last target/hip position stage... aim red laser spot on target, squeeze & that's it - spot on. Now that's a BIG deal... Innovative? Definitely. Effective? Oh yeah...
"- Cocking the rifle is painful if the other hand is holding the pistol grip, because there is an uncomfortable protrusion pressing against the hand."
I'm not sure why u would feel that cocking action results in pain for u, but while using it at the firing range for my run-down, i did not notice any pain or difficulty in cocking the SAR21. Perhaps I was too occupied by the task at hand? Kekekeke...
Good weapon. -
Hey Military Buffs,sumone pretty new here.Anyway right,the SAR-21 can be fitted with the M-16S1 magazines.And besides,dunnoe if u guys noticed,the American Spec Ops Community like Delta are using Plastic polymer mags on their M-4s too.So it isn't realli a big problem.
But seriously,I think ST made a mistake by putting the selector in the butt area.I fired the SAR21 a number of times,and though i have no complains about its safety,i can't help but scream at the screwed-up position of the Selector.Why put it behind?When in combat,everything takes place real quick,and u dun want your soldiers to be fidgetting with the selector and get shot right?Seriously,if the SAR21 was to be a top-class weapon,ST had better introduce a new Model of the SAR21 with the Selector put to the front.
The fact that the bayonet can't be attached is not realli a concern,as most troops these daes would simply not bother to stab the buggers,when he can shoot them right?2yrs back at the SAFTI MI open house,i went early so I got this 2LT to let me wack a few full 30 round mags,to do snapshots.Guess what,the gun started to IA after my 3rd Mag,with the M-16,I can go up to 7 mags before the weapon starts giving me problems.
Lastly,to those complaining bout the SAR21's weight,one thing u have to admit,it does have a good centre of gravity and thus ur shots will be more accurate.
**FEEL FREE TO COMMENT MATES!!!
" [/quote] -
well..i think SAR-21 ergonomic is great!!
im not sure y some say its sucky??
ive not fire it yet...but i like the feeling when doing a standing shoulder..it dont tired me that easily..
abt the weight..i dun really care...my unit are still using AR15...
n im a MG Gunner...so which is heavier?
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Originally posted by SpecOps87:Hey Military Buffs,sumone pretty new here.Anyway right,the SAR-21 can be fitted with the M-16S1 magazines.And besides,dunnoe if u guys noticed,the American Spec Ops Community like Delta are using Plastic polymer mags on their M-4s too.So it isn't realli a big problem.
But seriously,I think ST made a mistake by putting the selector in the butt area.I fired the SAR21 a number of times,and though i have no complains about its safety,i can't help but scream at the screwed-up position of the Selector.Why put it behind?When in combat,everything takes place real quick,and u dun want your soldiers to be fidgetting with the selector and get shot right?Seriously,if the SAR21 was to be a top-class weapon,ST had better introduce a new Model of the SAR21 with the Selector put to the front.
The fact that the bayonet can't be attached is not realli a concern,as most troops these daes would simply not bother to stab the buggers,when he can shoot them right?2yrs back at the SAFTI MI open house,i went early so I got this 2LT to let me wack a few full 30 round mags,to do snapshots.Guess what,the gun started to IA after my 3rd Mag,with the M-16,I can go up to 7 mags before the weapon starts giving me problems.
Lastly,to those complaining bout the SAR21's weight,one thing u have to admit,it does have a good centre of gravity and thus ur shots will be more accurate.
**FEEL FREE TO COMMENT MATES!!! " [/quote]
ok 2 concern up there for me...anyone knows wats the reason for putting the selector on the butt area?
the reason SpecOps87 give is valid...everything will happen in a fast pace...
but i still prefer having a bayonet... -
Forgive my ignorance that the SAR cannot use M16 magazine. Good to know that now.
Drilling the Magazine
Drilling holes into the M16 magazine will not reduce the structural strength if you know where to drill. Remember that our M16 magazines have 2 holes drilled to make them compatible with the Ultimax 100? But if polymer magazines are cheaper and lighter to make, I am in full support of it.
Integrated Laser Innovation
As for the integrated laser sights, soldiers in my platoon have been black-taping common laser pointers (less that 50 grams and $10) to the M16. Gives same results, because at close range, perfect zeroing is not necessary. Only problem is it has no IR capability. So the SAR21 designers cannot claim novelty on this. Effective? Yes. Innovation? No. Unless it can shoot around corners.
Cocking Discomfort
If course, cocking the rifle while holding the hand guard is always comfortable. But what I meant was holding the pistol grip while cocking. This is a faster response as the firing hand is still near the trigger.
Weight Issue
Don't equate fitness with weapon weight. A lighter, compact weapon is always better. US soldiers prefer their M4 for this reason, despite its short range. The extra weight shedded could have been used to carry more ammo. If you strip away all the plastics and un-useless parts, you will see that the basic rifle skeletal is just a skinny metal tube. It still fires without distortion.
Compactness
This refers to the volume of the weapon. Don't you agree that a compact weapon is less visible and more "tactical"? It will also takeup less space inside vehicles and storage? If the designers have been more innovative, they should have considered building the SAR such that they are stackable for storage and transportation. -
You're right.In fact, this so-called zeroed scope is a misnomer, because the rifle needs frequent zeroing, with the aid of the LAD(Laser Aiming Device, not LAM).The zeroing is not carried out in the units, but rather at a higher level.I've seen the zeroing done in my daily work, it's not a easy thing to do.In fact the zeroing process is a sensitive thing.Originally posted by |-|05|:is under ur armpit wad..or near it lah...because it's behind the mag leh.....
And the per zeroing i think is like that.....The aim is frm the scope which has been engineered intot he body...so they just zero that during production and it should stay unless it get's knock of or something...by which it wld have to return to shop to be refitted and re zeroed again i guess......not sure how it works..... -
alamak, Laser Aiming Module, module cos it can be removed aka modular, u think my 'M' is machine huh ? ha...Originally posted by LazerLordz:You're right.In fact, this so-called zeroed scope is a misnomer, because the rifle needs frequent zeroing, with the aid of the LAD(Laser Aiming Device, not LAM).The zeroing is not carried out in the units, but rather at a higher level.I've seen the zeroing done in my daily work, it's not a easy thing to do.In fact the zeroing process is a sensitive thing. -
some new development on the SAR21
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Great, we design a wonder weapon that needs to be brought back to the factory to zero. So what happens when the weapon need to be used in a war?Originally posted by LazerLordz:The zeroing is not carried out in the units, but rather at a higher level.I've seen the zeroing done in my daily work, it's not a easy thing to do.In fact the zeroing process is a sensitive thing. -
yea..its sound great from A to Y...but stop at Z..Zeroing...Originally posted by Viper52:Great, we design a wonder weapon that needs to be brought back to the factory to zero. So what happens when the weapon need to be used in a war?
Oops my bad... forgot Y!!! -
Hey, what happened to "Y"? :-)Originally posted by NathanG5:yea..its sound great from A to X..but stop at Z..Zeroing... -
From the PoV of an infantry spec in the unit who has used both the SAR and the M16 in unit exercises,
SAR sucks. Nice concept, but it's implementation stinks until someone bothers to refine it. Maybe I'm a biased left hander.
Weight
The SAR is considerably heavier than the M16. The weight difference might not be much when you first hold it, but try holding it in extended missions (above 10km), and it's a literal pain in the neck with a rifle sling. While it's not as heavy as MGs and stuff, we are expected to do rapid fire movement with the SAR unlike the MG team.
Scope
The SAR is useless in rainy weather and muddy terrain. Rain water or mud could splash onto the front end of the scope and obscure the view. The same could happen to an M16 too, but the front of the scope is made of glass material and is harder to clean compared to an iron sight. You might be able to clear off the mud, but you'll still get a pretty blur view. Rain is a bigger problem if it drips onto the iron sight, because if it doesn't stop, it's pointless to wipe the scope.
Iron Sight
Located on top of scope. I suspect this feature is a joke by ST engineers. It's completely useless because it's too small and you can't zero it.
Magazine
Innovative. Made of clear transparent plastic with markings at the back that enable the soldier to see amount of rounds he has left. However, it's impractical as it is too big for the current SBO (by current i mean 1-2 years ago when I was still in the army) that is too small to hold 2 SAR mags in the same pocket. Also, the rings around the body of the mag will interlock with another mag further interfering with combat reloading. Major pain.
Immediate Stoppages
We were told the SAR IAs less the the M16. That's much is true. But when SAR does IA, chances are that it's a very serious one that cannot be cleared quickly (expended cartridge stuck behind bolt carrier). You might even have to strip the SAR to clear it. I'll rather choose the M16 that IAs more than the SAR that might not be able to recover from IA.
Interior
Whatever material they used to make the inside rusts a lot easier. My SAR was only 4 months old, and it came back post mission with some serious rust. No, I didn't do water ops. Yes, it was clean and rust free when i went out with it. Maybe the SAR is still in the testing stage and I got some beta version? Personal hypothesis : SAF make these first versions with cheap metal, tests it in the field. After which they make newer final versions, and then sell the "beta" versions to other our neighbours.
Deflectors and left handers
I'm a left hander, and I totally hate the SAR. I'm biased. Why? The SAR does not have a deflector add-on. They have some mini joke of a built in deflector, which btw is some small triangular piece of plastic. It doesn't do its deflecting job AT ALL. During live firing, as would be the case during war, I get hit by like 90% of the bloody hot empty cartriges.
Bayonet
Erm ... what bayonet? THere's nowhere to fix it on. Sure, in close range combat you could smash the enemy's head with the heavy rifle butt. But given the SAR is barely 1m long, you might not reach the bugger before he pokes you with HIS bayonet.
Outer Casing
Someone told me the outer casing is made of Kevlar. No idea. Even if it is, SAR still looks like a toy. Anway there are claims that the SAR will protect the soldier's precious face in event of a chamber explosion as the casing and rifle interior can contain it. Means jack to me becasuse as a left-hander, my face is right behind the ejection port. If the rifle goes boom, the blast impact will go only where it can, out of the ejection port, to my face ...
Fire mode selector
The bullpup design forces the fire mode selector to be positioned behind at the buttstock where the trigger and firing mechanism are also located. Tough to change fire mode during combat.
Other rare plus points- SAR interior is easier to clean due to it's design.
Has a lighter recoil compared to the M16 (further making it seem like a toy).
The weight is evenly distributed making it easier on aiming.
The SAR has better accuracy due to scope (barring crap weather/ground) than M16 in close range.
Integrated LAD is nice idea.
Zeroing will remain no matter how many times one drops the weapon. Note: nobody in our unit was willing to test the claim by repeatly dropping the SAR during range.
Besides, if SAR is so good, SoF/STAR/SWG would have switched to SAR long ago.