New gun a cock-up ?
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doubt it....too small....Originally posted by Moonstriker:just wondering, are there HE rounds for 5.56mm ? -
LOL! And what would a 5.56 HE round accomplish? *pop*
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think the smallest one is the 20mm grenade used by the OICW...
hmmm... but wouldn't be impossible... a 5.56 that goes "pop" and delivers splinters within a 5m radius can do plenty of damage to human targets...
but how are u gonna put a timed fuse on something so small?
quite defeats the purpose if it explodes on impact cos it'll be overkill on that one target, but cos the projectile is so small, the impact would also dampen the explosion and absorb the splinters...
hee... sick... imagine the blood and gore if it works out... -
really interesting read ...... can't tear my eyes off
I've never cleaned and maintained the SAR21 before, but I can sure remember damaging the M16 and SAW during my NS days ... because of cleaning.
I damaged my M16 in Tekong. That time we were really harassed by the instructors over the cleaniness of our rifle. then some buggers started using scotch brite and some even steel wool for scrubbing the bolt carrier group. after a while all of us were doing that ... yah lah ... you end up with a really shiny clean bolt group, by polishing off the protective paint that is suppose to cover it !!!
and the lower receiver group was a pain to clean. i damaged by rifle by over zealous dleaning of pincers / cloth action that rendered by rifle to only auto mode i.e. kind of cocked up the safe and semi mode. so kana 1206 for that .....
in Safincos, because of over zealous cleaning too, i damaged the bolt action group of the SAW. so have to send back to armskote to realign some nuts in the bolt group so that I can slide it back to the upper receiver group. and all ... really ... all SAW gunners signed 2 to 3 1206 during their stay because of breaking the gas regulator of the SAW during cleaning.
So i also hope that the performance of the SAR21 won't be compromised due to kia-su and kia-si trainees scrubbing and poking the life out of of the SAR21. and i wonder if STK accounted for that as well. can any of you witness if a SAR21 has been cleaned out of its life? -
are u sure its not just you???Originally posted by vleelee:I damaged my M16 in Tekong....
...i damaged by rifle by over zealous dleaning of pincers / cloth action that rendered by rifle to only auto mode i.e. kind of cocked up the safe and semi mode. so kana 1206 for that .....
really ... all SAW gunners signed 2 to 3 1206 during their stay because of breaking the gas regulator of the SAW during cleaning.
the only time i saw the lower receiver group cock up that way was when some idiot in my unit decided to dismantle the trigger mechanism to clean but couldn't put it back together in quite the same way...
i used a SAW in sispec... i never killed my weapon that way! the worse i had to do was use a metal brush to scrape the rust off the shiny barrel (thanks to pple like u)...
i actually found the SAW bolt easier to clean than the m16... less awkward, difficult to reach corners.
and none of my SAW gunners in unit had ever failed inspection consistently before... but neither did they totally destroy their weapons by cleaning it to death...
gas regulator u just gotta be gentle... i've heard of accidents happening, but i always supervise weapon cleaning and always emphasise that stripping the gas regulator must be done
v-e-r-y c-a-r-ef-u-l-l-y
wouldn't surprise me if u can clean an AK47 to death as well... 
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eh ... can't really blame me leh. the instructors were just looking for excuse to tekkan us. the cleaning was never ending. even during range, the details waiting were made to clean and re-clean and re-clean. some instructors even unscrewed the muzzle / flash supressor and asked why we did not clean that part .... man !! (as if that part will impact the performance of our shots)
ok ... i admit i was one of the rare few who damaged the lower receiver of the M16, but i was told that my weapon was already kind of cocked up the day i received it in tekong.
so we had to really clean it. and under time pressure, you just poke and stab and scrape and file it off as quickly as you can. yah ... and try doing it to the SAW's gas regulator under those stress .... sure will break.
oh ... and the screws of the bolt group in the SAW getting out of alignment, it seemed that the batch I was using (those that the barrel cannot be changed) seemed to have this common problem. i was not the only one, because the instructor who tried to fix it for me clearly mentioned ... "eh ... kana again? go to armskote and get the screwdriver for me"
p.s. i even lost the butt plate of my SAW after one of the missions and had to go through a BOI to answer for that.
i wonder if the manufacturers really taught the instructors how to clean the weapons .... or is it if can dig with little finger, then must clean one. -
Originally posted by LRRP:
The Israeli Galil is one such example...although Israel isn't exactly a Western country
talk about AK47, no western countries are able to replicate its reliablity , even after 40 yrs[/b] -
The SAW is a really dangerous weapon with its open bolt system... its so easy to misfire with the bolt open and when you run to prone down...
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HE 5.56? I don't want to be near you when you kenna a cookoff.
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Yea.. I'm from AF.Originally posted by NathanG5:you're from Airforce too?
i was posting almost the same thing as u...but i guess frontline soldier have different view from us...
we never have the luxary of having a brand new weapon..let alone a new model..
Which AB are u from?
U know.. i sometimes wonder if Mindef is taking us seriously. We may not be the ones fighting in the front line, bt if EVER we have to fight an enemy, it will likely be some ELITE enemy force. Afterall, its an airbase, the base of our most powerful and important fighting force. With the kinda weapons they give us and the training we get, do they actually expect us to protect base assets effectively?
Everything we have are things other units dun wan.. vehicles, weapons, comms, nightsights.. while they spend BILLIONS on aircrafts.. what kinda maths is this?
Live firing range is posponed over and over again.. i have not shoot a live round from my weapon for more then 5 years now. How i wish in my MAY ICT we have some mad guys dashing into base.. i can then have LIVE firing practice..
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TAB FDSOriginally posted by siaokao:Yea.. I'm from AF.
Which AB are u from?
U know.. i sometimes wonder if Mindef is taking us seriously. We may not be the ones fighting in the front line, bt if EVER we have to fight an enemy, it will likely be some ELITE enemy force. Afterall, its an airbase, the base of our most powerful and important fighting force. With the kinda weapons they give us and the training we get, do they actually expect us to protect base assets effectively?
Everything we have are things other units dun wan.. vehicles, weapons, comms, nightsights.. while they spend BILLIONS on aircrafts.. what kinda maths is this?
Live firing range is posponed over and over again.. i have not shoot a live round from my weapon for more then 5 years now. How i wish in my MAY ICT we have some mad guys dashing into base.. i can then have LIVE firing practice..
yea agree with u bro...not only lousy weapon..for my side...we lack of manpower..they expect us to secure the AB the size of AMK with a measly manpower.. -
If you have any problems with the SAR21, please make them known to your unit commander. The SAR21 is still undergoing continual improvements and feedback is welcome.
The reason for the fat foregrip is that it was believed to be the most ergonomic shape, especially while prone. The foregrip needs to be big enough for the hand to hold comfortably, yet not too high to avoid the rifle being too high off the ground in the prone position, hence the low, wide shape. A pistol grip like the AUG was considered but made an option rather than the default. What shape would you suggest for the foregrip? How big is your hand, first of all?
The iron sights were not part of the Army's requirements. They were a later addition due to feedback, and are known to be somewhat inadequate. The latest mark of the SAR21 has a zeroable iron sight which should work better.
Regarding dirt and mud with the SAR21, you should have been issued a pair of sight protectors with your rifle, which will protect the sight when on. There is a space in the butt of your rifle specifically to store the sight protectors, though you can keep them in your pockets, of course. Did you receive the sight protectors with your rifle? Do you use them regularly? It is understood that taking the sight protectors on and off in the heat of combat is difficult, and any suggestion to resolve this would be good. I suggest tying the protectors to the sight with comscord.
Regarding the handedness of the rifle, the Army allowed the rifle to only be right-handed. I believe that doctrine in the SAF is to train all shooters from now on to shoot from the right shoulder with the right eye, regardless of eye dominance or handedness, since the optical sight eliminates most issues of eye dominance and handedness has been shown to have little effect on shooting. Standardizing rifle drill would make training more effective. Changing between shoulders is a bad idea, IMHO, since most shooters get too little practice on one shoulder as it is. Splitting training time between shoulders would make you bad with both, rather than at least good with one. An ambidextrous rifle would be ideal, but might be impossible at this point.
Regarding the position of the selector switch -- this was agreed to by the Army. Again, doctrine seems to not favor switching firing modes often in combat. However, the bad feedback has been noted, but there are technical issues with moving the switch forward near the trigger (which hopefully can be resolved).
Regarding the pressure needed to activate the safety -- this has been reduced in the latest mark -- it should now be possible to activate the safety with the trigger hand. If you are suggesting that the position of the safety be moved, please suggest where to move it to. If you are asking for the type of safety to be changed to the rotating lever of the M16 -- this was decided to be less safe than the MG-style safety now in use.
Regarding the position of the magazine release catch -- this has already been moved once due to feedback. Before moving it again, we should at least let the new configuration be tested for a while. A key requirement for the catch is that it not accidently activate -- many of the suggestions here sound like they would activate too easily -- a problem with the M16 (hence the rubber bands tied around magazines some units use on night ops -- which are NOT ALLOWED since they can contribute to malfunctions).
Regarding the rifle's weight -- every effort has been made and will continue to be made to reduce the weight of the rifle. It is important to compare like with like here. The SAR possesses capabilities that the M16 does not have (LAM, optical sight, accuracy). Some weight is also needed to ensure that felt recoil is low -- an important part of meeting the accuracy requirement of the Army. The weight is also carefully distributed such that the point of balance is over the trigger hand, which reduces barrel jump and improves speed of acquisition. The accuracy of the SAR21, particularly in automatic fire, is one of its strongest points.
Regarding the magazines -- it seems that your problems seem to be with the combat webbing rather than the magazines themselves. There is no need to have two magazines in one pouch if we were designing webbing from scratch, for instance.
Regarding stoppages -- the SAR21 has been shown to have fewer stoppages than the M16 in firing tests. Ensure that the gas port selector is set correctly, and that the weapon and ammo are reasonably clean. Many stoppages are caused by bad ammo rather than the weapon -- this can only be corrected to a limited extent by weapon design. A problem with the ejector arm has been corrected in the latest mark of the SAR21, so serious stoppages requiring pliers or worse for rectification should not occur any more. Please report all serious weapon malfunctions promptly -- these reports are given the greatest attention by the Army and DSTA. -
ok all...DSTA or STK do notice the present fault of the SAR21..lets hope the weapon will turn into a top class weapon in future..Originally posted by dkhoo:If you have any problems with the SAR21, please make them known to your unit commander. The SAR21 is still undergoing continual improvements and feedback is welcome.
The reason for the fat foregrip is that it was believed to be the most ergonomic shape, especially while prone. The foregrip needs to be big enough for the hand to hold comfortably, yet not too high to avoid the rifle being too high off the ground in the prone position, hence the low, wide shape. A pistol grip like the AUG was considered but made an option rather than the default. What shape would you suggest for the foregrip? How big is your hand, first of all?
The iron sights were not part of the Army's requirements. They were a later addition due to feedback, and are known to be somewhat inadequate. The latest mark of the SAR21 has a zeroable iron sight which should work better.
Regarding dirt and mud with the SAR21, you should have been issued a pair of sight protectors with your rifle, which will protect the sight when on. There is a space in the butt of your rifle specifically to store the sight protectors, though you can keep them in your pockets, of course. Did you receive the sight protectors with your rifle? Do you use them regularly? It is understood that taking the sight protectors on and off in the heat of combat is difficult, and any suggestion to resolve this would be good. I suggest tying the protectors to the sight with comscord.
Regarding the handedness of the rifle, the Army allowed the rifle to only be right-handed. I believe that doctrine in the SAF is to train all shooters from now on to shoot from the right shoulder with the right eye, regardless of eye dominance or handedness, since the optical sight eliminates most issues of eye dominance and handedness has been shown to have little effect on shooting. Standardizing rifle drill would make training more effective. Changing between shoulders is a bad idea, IMHO, since most shooters get too little practice on one shoulder as it is. Splitting training time between shoulders would make you bad with both, rather than at least good with one. An ambidextrous rifle would be ideal, but might be impossible at this point.
Regarding the position of the selector switch -- this was agreed to by the Army. Again, doctrine seems to not favor switching firing modes often in combat. However, the bad feedback has been noted, but there are technical issues with moving the switch forward near the trigger (which hopefully can be resolved).
Regarding the pressure needed to activate the safety -- this has been reduced in the latest mark -- it should now be possible to activate the safety with the trigger hand. If you are suggesting that the position of the safety be moved, please suggest where to move it to. If you are asking for the type of safety to be changed to the rotating lever of the M16 -- this was decided to be less safe than the MG-style safety now in use.
Regarding the position of the magazine release catch -- this has already been moved once due to feedback. Before moving it again, we should at least let the new configuration be tested for a while. A key requirement for the catch is that it not accidently activate -- many of the suggestions here sound like they would activate too easily -- a problem with the M16 (hence the rubber bands tied around magazines some units use on night ops -- which are NOT ALLOWED since they can contribute to malfunctions).
Regarding the rifle's weight -- every effort has been made and will continue to be made to reduce the weight of the rifle. It is important to compare like with like here. The SAR possesses capabilities that the M16 does not have (LAM, optical sight, accuracy). Some weight is also needed to ensure that felt recoil is low -- an important part of meeting the accuracy requirement of the Army. The weight is also carefully distributed such that the point of balance is over the trigger hand, which reduces barrel jump and improves speed of acquisition. The accuracy of the SAR21, particularly in automatic fire, is one of its strongest points.
Regarding the magazines -- it seems that your problems seem to be with the combat webbing rather than the magazines themselves. There is no need to have two magazines in one pouch if we were designing webbing from scratch, for instance.
Regarding stoppages -- the SAR21 has been shown to have fewer stoppages than the M16 in firing tests. Ensure that the gas port selector is set correctly, and that the weapon and ammo are reasonably clean. Many stoppages are caused by bad ammo rather than the weapon -- this can only be corrected to a limited extent by weapon design. A problem with the ejector arm has been corrected in the latest mark of the SAR21, so serious stoppages requiring pliers or worse for rectification should not occur any more. Please report all serious weapon malfunctions promptly -- these reports are given the greatest attention by the Army and DSTA.
but i hope SAF slow down the phasing out of M16..so as to give more time for SAR21 to improve..no rush yet..we're not at war right? -
dkhoo
Excellent comments....
Suggestions
- Technical issues willing, have a MG style selector switch just above the pistol grip. The safety switch can remain where it is.
- Make it ambidextrous to allow left and right hand firing....the point is not training to shoot with both shoulders but used for off-corner situations where covering fire is required...not sure if feasible to have it like P90 style
- Call me a oldie, but the sight of a bayonet fixed is 10x more intimidating than one without....
Southpark
The Dude -
I propose that in an event of an emergency, a catch can be activated that will split the butt of the rifle down the center, revealing a sharpened axe that can be used to disembowel opponents... yesssss... who needs bayonets...
Come to think of it, if I was really in a melee battle, I'll op straight for the ET tool, lighter weight and greater blade area makes it far more dangerous and a knive on an M16. -
Try telling the enemy "chop hor, I take out my ET tool 1st okay"....Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I propose that in an event of an emergency, a catch can be activated that will split the butt of the rifle down the center, revealing a sharpened axe that can be used to disembowel opponents... yesssss... who needs bayonets...
Come to think of it, if I was really in a melee battle, I'll op straight for the ET tool, lighter weight and greater blade area makes it far more dangerous and a knive on an M16.
Becos of the shorter length of the SAR-21, new ways to fight with a blade needs to be found....You dun fight M-16 style - thrust and slah with both hands - buttstroke to the face...
Here's my suggestion - have two.
- one fixed on the bayonet
- the other you draw and hold it in yr other (left) hand. (the other alternative is to fix it on yr left arm)...
In other words, you fight like a samurai warrior: the SAR-21 is a bit like yr long katana - the other blade yr short katana....
Cheers
Southpark
The Dude -
hmmm... ET stick and plate add together lighter than bayonets meh?
anyway if i had to use my bayonet in battle, it would most likely be in a close combat scenario.
given this scenario : enemy soldiers charge towards your location,at this point u realised your magazine empty liao. you search your sbo for a new mag, u look up and realise enemy soldier 10 feet away, how, i'm jus curious, how does one 'action front' his ET tools in time? i might have left army quite some time ago but if you're still using the same sbo, the ET plate and stick hook at the back of SBO one rite? got time to take out and assemble ah?
if bayonet is already on the rifle, then no need so kan chiong rite rite?
quote]Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
I propose that in an event of an emergency, a catch can be activated that will split the butt of the rifle down the center, revealing a sharpened axe that can be used to disembowel opponents... yesssss... who needs bayonets...
Come to think of it, if I was really in a melee battle, I'll op straight for the ET tool, lighter weight and greater blade area makes it far more dangerous and a knive on an M16.[/quote] -
OMG! dkhoo are you from DSTA? STK? A*STAR? Hope you all follow forums and theads like this to get feedback from us peng kia.
Regarding dirt and mud :
If suddenly contacted there would be quite a delay if every soldier had to remove a rubber scope covering, so in actual fact no one uses the scope covering in the field. It might be pure laziness, but it's also more tactically sound as soldiers can return fire immediately without it.
Suggestion, is it possible to place a permanent clear covering in front of the scope? I'll try to illustrate ..
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(AAAAAAAAAA) |
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Key :
cyan : Actual scope
violet : Rubber scope covering
red : Covering (suggested)
The covering would be transparent, yet not affect the optical magnification or zeroing. The cover has to be hard and scratch resistant also. The idea is for it to be outside the actual scope, so it will prevent dirt from getting inside. Make the feature permanent replacable by mounting it like a flash supressor. Or maybe use small screws. This way the scope is further protected, and if the new cover is damaged, it can be replaced.
Pistol grip :
I have no problems with the handguard except maybe it's too heavy. But seeing it also contains the LAD, I have no idea how to make it lighter. My gripe is the pistol grip. Now this is really nit-picking. In attempts to make the pistol grip ergonomic, a small "bump" was made to fit the just under the thumb of the hand holding the trigger. I don't see why we need it. It's rather painful to hold for us left handers.
Reguarding right handed doctrine :
Changing the doctrine? Make all soldiers shoot the right-handed way? That's short-sightness by the top honchos in the SAF who make/change doctrine. It's as bad an idea as the vietnam war to me. It's also impossible for people like me. I can't close my left eye alone. I can only close my right eye only, or both eyes. Hey, call me a freak but I'm sure there are others like me with deficient facial muscles. Another example of SAF wanting to produce thinking soldiers but train them to become drones. Forcefully train soldiers to conform to outdated or just new and plainly dumb doctrine; instead of changing the doctrine to adopt.
If this was enforced, during live firing, nobody would want to be within 10m of a left-hander. No matter how you train, you will make mistakes when using your non-master land to engage at times. Furthermore, I've never heard of a right-hander only (modern) rifle.
Forcing left-handed soldiers to shoot with their right hand will definately reduce their responsiveness. It will never be the same as using the right hand. To illustrate, by don't you righties try playing the guitar with your right hand holding the frets? Or during archery, pulling the bowstring with the left hand? Golf? Bowling? ANY racket game? Or the classic can-opener? Write? It just isn't the same.
If this is done to protect soldiers in the event of chamber explosion, I would ask 1 simple question. Making the SAR amibextrous ala the TAR might incur double the normal casualty rate in event of a chamber explosion, but it would greatly improve the combat effectiveness of all left-handers at the same time while also reducing the left handers mortality rate. It might be hard to design, but it would be a great boon to the army.
Weight issues :
I understand the added components also add to the weight, but the present weight makes really it unsuitable in long missions. it places unnecessary heavy stain on the neck. By the time I reach the objectives, I can hardly lift my head to aim in long mission. Please do more to reduce the weight. Right now it's good for static defence, not for mobile troops.
Other issues
- Redesign the SBO to fit the new mag. But please make it 1 mag per pouch. And if the SAF keeps remaking stuff, reversists are going to find it hard to catch up.
- IMO it's much easier to accidentally "push" the safety in SAR than accidentally "shift" the M16 selector. Reusing the old M16 mode selector would elimate both the safety and selector issues? Though looking at the SAR configuration it would take some rather creative engineering ... -
[/b][/quote]Originally posted by foga:hmmm... ET stick and plate add together lighter than bayonets meh?
anyway if i had to use my bayonet in battle, it would most likely be in a close combat scenario.
given this scenario : enemy soldiers charge towards your location,at this point u realised your magazine empty liao. you search your sbo for a new mag, u look up and realise enemy soldier 10 feet away, how, i'm jus curious, how does one 'action front' his ET tools in time? i might have left army quite some time ago but if you're still using the same sbo, the ET plate and stick hook at the back of SBO one rite? got time to take out and assemble ah?
if bayonet is already on the rifle, then no need so kan chiong rite rite?
quote]Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:
[b]I propose that in an event of an emergency, a catch can be activated that will split the butt of the rifle down the center, revealing a sharpened axe that can be used to disembowel opponents... yesssss... who needs bayonets...
Come to think of it, if I was really in a melee battle, I'll op straight for the ET tool, lighter weight and greater blade area makes it far more dangerous and a knive on an M16.
Aiyah, I mean if got ET tool lying close by, then use it lor. You can use it and anyhow slash and parry. M16 must stab stab stab one. Also, you opponent can fall and die on the ET tool, but rifle, a bit hard.
But if you got ET tool versus empty rifle with knife, you have the edge because an assualt rifle was never really meant to be used as a melee weapon, though drills can help turn it into one. -
hmmm... then jus in case some dun have ET tool ready, at least got bayonet on rifle then if need, no need to gan chiong.
maybe can suggest saw gunners, M203 gunners, GPMG gunners all must action front their ET stick and plate when doing area/position defence and when mounting assault on objective. because they cannot put bayonet.
actually if really have to fight like that, i would use the rifle to 'boot' the asS*ole. macam like use stick like that. if use ET tool hor, can also lah, but that means must get closer to the enemy. but if the northerns use long parang or kris, knn, then must front thrust and parry kiri dan kanan....Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Aiyah, I mean if got ET tool lying close by, then use it lor. You can use it and anyhow slash and parry. M16 must stab stab stab one. Also, you opponent can fall and die on the ET tool, but rifle, a bit hard.
But if you got ET tool versus empty rifle with knife, you have the edge because an assualt rifle was never really meant to be used as a melee weapon, though drills can help turn it into one. -
Interesting discussion on bayonet and ET.
Main problem from what I can see is that the SAR21 is too short for making use of bayonet impractical. Simple solution to that :-)
Simply fix a telescoping extension to the foregrip with a bayonet lug at the end. Extend the pole after the bayonet is fixed and you have an edge weapon twice the length of the SAR21.
Oh, there were some gripes about time taken to deploy the bayonet and ET. The extension device can incorporate a small air reservoir tapped to the barrel that is automatically recharged when the weapon fires. When bayonet fighting is required, press a button on the grip and the pole extends automatically, surprising the enemy you are attacking.
Just a bit of humour to lighten things up !!! -
Yeah dudes......lighten up..... we are merely on a discussion.....it's not as if we in some kindda gaunlet debate to inthe death thingy...
I'd like to comment but due to the lack of feel & touch in the SAR-21...I'll wait for my ICT before posting my views......if I have any by that time... -
I have a suggestion for the Sar-21 scope /dirt thing. First of all, create a mechanism that opens and closes the scope with a flick of a switch. Sort of like a snap open lid. PLS snap open sideways and not upwards, else ur back up iron sights are useless. As for cleaning, have another transparent layer close to the front of the scope so that that is the layer that will get dirty and can be cleaned easily.
Another idea is have the reflex sight instead of a scope. Hehe. It has a little magnification. and its not that shabby. -
Automatic Parang slasher, mounted to your rifle front?
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wad abt a mini automatic scroll saw?
much more menacing...