Organic ADA for SAF armour
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Presently, the divisional ADA battalions of the air force provide mobile ADA coverage for the army. These are primarily missile-based systems integrated on board lightly armoured or even soft-skinned wheeled vehicles, operating in conjunction with sensor systems on separate platforms
What is really lacking are dedicated mobile ADA systems (preferrable gun/missile armament) wih integrated sensor packages onboard unitary armoured, tracked platforms, e.g. Russian Tunguska, to shadow or even be organic to armour battalions. Such systems have dual secondary mission for fire-support against infantry/light armour/bunker role with their gun/missile armament, e.g ADATS -
"No budget".
There is the system cost, Missles, Fire Control system and Radar and platform cost.
If we mount it a soft-skinned vehicle the platform cost is relatively cheap. But if we mount the SAM on a tracked platform the cost buying and maintaining the "platform" will be high. -
This budgetary problems would not be such an issue if more leeway is given to the army then either the navy and air-force combined. It is as if there is no more balance in the allocation of funding for the local military, only favouring the higher tech stuff more and thinking that only the air force or navy are the moreOriginally posted by spencer99:"No budget".
There is the system cost, Missles, Fire Control system and Radar and platform cost.
If we mount it a soft-skinned vehicle the platform cost is relatively cheap. But if we mount the SAM on a tracked platform the cost buying and maintaining the "platform" will be high.
priviledged lot to handle them. -
This budgetary problems would not be such an issue if more leeway is given to the army then either the navy and air-force combined. It is as if there is no more balance in the allocation of funding for the local military, only favouring the higher tech stuff more and thinking that only the air force or navy are the moreOriginally posted by spencer99:"No budget".
There is the system cost, Missles, Fire Control system and Radar and platform cost.
If we mount it a soft-skinned vehicle the platform cost is relatively cheap. But if we mount the SAM on a tracked platform the cost buying and maintaining the "platform" will be high.
priviledged lot to handle them. -
I think it's high time the SAF considered such systems. I suspect part of the reason why they were slow in the past to get such systems is because of the feeling that in any war against regional forces, it would be relatively easy for the RSAF to claim air superiority and significantly reduce the threat to our ground forces. However with the proliferaition of newer fighters and improved ground attack systems available to regional countries, total air superiority in a war would not be so certain, and there may be times when our ground formations would have to protect themselves.
IIRC, I've seen LandRovers/MercBenz GD290 mounted with twin IGLAs (or was it Mistral?) on Open House/NDP. I believe there are more systems planned, but I do think it's time we considered a dedicated SP ADA system instead of using ad-hoc conversions. -
As a matter of fact, we will be getting something quite like what you said but I only say this because it is not anything near the capability of a Tunguska, which I feel is a worthy benchmark for a lethal gun/missile ADA system. Also, I believe the up and coming new system still is lacking a lot in armour protection and not so sure of its ability to handle massed air attackOriginally posted by Viper52:I think it's high time the SAF considered such systems. I suspect part of the reason why they were slow in the past to get such systems is because of the feeling that in any war against regional forces, it would be relatively easy for the RSAF to claim air superiority and significantly reduce the threat to our ground forces. However with the proliferaition of newer fighters and improved ground attack systems available to regional countries, total air superiority in a war would not be so certain, and there may be times when our ground formations would have to protect themselves.
IIRC, I've seen LandRovers/MercBenz GD290 mounted with twin IGLAs (or was it Mistral?) on Open House/NDP. I believe there are more systems planned, but I do think it's time we considered a dedicated SP ADA system instead of using ad-hoc conversions. -
wow they have them on rovers too?
impressive... i remember seeing a twin Igla launcher on M113 with something that look like a oil drum.Originally posted by Viper52:IIRC, I've seen LandRovers/MercBenz GD290 mounted with twin IGLAs (or was it Mistral?) on Open House/NDP. I believe there are more systems planned, but I do think it's time we considered a dedicated SP ADA system instead of using ad-hoc conversions. -
I kind of agree on your first point in that the SEA's air forces are getting better and it might be more difficult for the RSAF to gain air superiority.Originally posted by Viper52:I think it's high time the SAF considered such systems. I suspect part of the reason why they were slow in the past to get such systems is because of the feeling that in any war against regional forces, it would be relatively easy for the RSAF to claim air superiority and significantly reduce the threat to our ground forces. However with the proliferaition of newer fighters and improved ground attack systems available to regional countries, total air superiority in a war would not be so certain, and there may be times when our ground formations would have to protect themselves.
IIRC, I've seen LandRovers/MercBenz GD290 mounted with twin IGLAs (or was it Mistral?) on Open House/NDP. I believe there are more systems planned, but I do think it's time we considered a dedicated SP ADA system instead of using ad-hoc conversions.
But resources are limited we either concede that we will not gain air superiority and invest less in F16s and more in ADA system or continue to invest in air assets.
I agree that compared to other assets like Aircraft, armour, arty and Signal, the ADA branch of the SAF seems very lacking.... seems to be the poor cousin of the air-based units of the RSAF. -
The Russian air defence forces have naturally been the inspiration for building up a strong air defence. During the Cold War the overlapping umbrella of numerous SAM and even gun systems for all approaches into the Soviet Union and most of the Warsaw Pact nations was very much feared by the Western military, albeit it took a while to believe that one could probably have daringly infiltrated via small and light wooden piston-engined, single-seater airframes.Originally posted by spencer99:I kind of agree on your first point in that the SEA's air forces are getting better and it might be more difficult for the RSAF to gain air superiority.
But resources are limited we either concede that we will not gain air superiority and invest less in F16s and more in ADA system or continue to invest in air assets.
I agree that compared to other assets like Aircraft, armour, arty and Signal, the ADA branch of the SAF seems very lacking.... seems to be the poor cousin of the air-based units of the RSAF.
Nonetheless, Russian missile technology in the SAM department is revered to be even more advanced and cheaper than the latest that the West can offer. Which I believe to be the fundamental case for choosing the Igla against the others, like US Stinger, UK Blowpipe/Starstreak, or even continuing with the costly Mistral, which isn't a pure MANPADs to start with. True, the Igla's targeting device may look crude, but it's still cheap and comparably effective. And that's what one would expect from a MANPADs that is meant to be shoulder-fired - easy to use. -
During the IOC period of the unit operating those stuff, the Fire Units were equipped with man-pack Mistral systems and transported via modified Rovers while the radars went with the 1.5 tonners.Originally posted by Viper52:I think it's high time the SAF considered such systems. I suspect part of the reason why they were slow in the past to get such systems is because of the feeling that in any war against regional forces, it would be relatively easy for the RSAF to claim air superiority and significantly reduce the threat to our ground forces. However with the proliferaition of newer fighters and improved ground attack systems available to regional countries, total air superiority in a war would not be so certain, and there may be times when our ground formations would have to protect themselves.
IIRC, I've seen LandRovers/MercBenz GD290 mounted with twin IGLAs (or was it Mistral?) on Open House/NDP. I believe there are more systems planned, but I do think it's time we considered a dedicated SP ADA system instead of using ad-hoc conversions.
About 2 years after the IOC period, the Igla was revealed. Somehow during IOC period of the unit (before the unit's first overseas live-firing in Sout Africa) it was observed that the unit leaders had been looking out for Russian systems (inferred from country code) -
And for the first time when the Igla was purchased, SAF has a true MANPAD system which doesn't require the operator to set up the system with a seat unlike the Mistral and RBS-70.
I believe organic air defense for the armoured battle groups is essential to protect them from attack chopper and CAS aircraft. That is why the Russian or Warsaw pact countries field SP anti aircraft guns with their tanks at divisional or battalion level.
US Army and marines are slowly realising the need for organic anti air platforms, thus came the Blazer, Linebacker and the Avenger. Well, personally, I hope to see a local "Blazer" on a Bionix chassis. The Blazer would have a multi barrel 25mm gatling gun, 4 Igla or Mistral and a P-STAR like radar. Each individual platform will be networked together by a CP vehicle which will assign section for each "Blazer" vehicle to guard. Information of incoming enemy's aircrafts detected by CP long range phased array radar will be sent to the "Blazar" vehicle(s) guarding the section of the approaching aircraft. Armoured crews will be informed of the incoming aircraft so that they can train their MGs or even the main guns (that is loaded with Israeli Lihat) at the general direction of the incoming aircrafts.
Some armoured infantry might be dispatched to be ready to engage the aircrafts with Igla (or even LAWs if they were choppers
).
How's that. -
Interestingly, Israeli LAHAT (LAser Homing Anti-Tank) has been certified with anti-helo capability. And you are very sure that ourOriginally posted by Joe Black:And for the first time when the Igla was purchased, SAF has a true MANPAD system which doesn't require the operator to set up the system with a seat unlike the Mistral and RBS-70.
I believe organic air defense for the armoured battle groups is essential to protect them from attack chopper and CAS aircraft. That is why the Russian or Warsaw pact countries field SP anti aircraft guns with their tanks at divisional or battalion level.
US Army and marines are slowly realising the need for organic anti air platforms, thus came the Blazer, Linebacker and the Avenger. Well, personally, I hope to see a local "Blazer" on a Bionix chassis. The Blazer would have a multi barrel 25mm gatling gun, 4 Igla or Mistral and a P-STAR like radar. Each individual platform will be networked together by a CP vehicle which will assign section for each "Blazer" vehicle to guard. Information of incoming enemy's aircrafts detected by CP long range phased array radar will be sent to the "Blazar" vehicle(s) guarding the section of the approaching aircraft. Armoured crews will be informed of the incoming aircraft so that they can train their MGs or even the main guns (that is loaded with Israeli Lihat) at the general direction of the incoming aircrafts.
Some armoured infantry might be dispatched to be ready to engage the aircrafts with Igla (or even LAWs if they were choppers).
How's that.
up-coming to be revealed (if ever) 120 mm'ed vehicle is able to employ such a munition ? :O -
If we ever do eventually field such a capability, would be interesting to conjure up the name to match, in the similar manner as how one would label such a weapon system ?Originally posted by Joe Black:And for the first time when the Igla was purchased, SAF has a true MANPAD system which doesn't require the operator to set up the system with a seat unlike the Mistral and RBS-70.
I believe organic air defense for the armoured battle groups is essential to protect them from attack chopper and CAS aircraft. That is why the Russian or Warsaw pact countries field SP anti aircraft guns with their tanks at divisional or battalion level.
US Army and marines are slowly realising the need for organic anti air platforms, thus came the Blazer, Linebacker and the Avenger. Well, personally, I hope to see a local "Blazer" on a Bionix chassis. The Blazer would have a multi barrel 25mm gatling gun, 4 Igla or Mistral and a P-STAR like radar. Each individual platform will be networked together by a CP vehicle which will assign section for each "Blazer" vehicle to guard. Information of incoming enemy's aircrafts detected by CP long range phased array radar will be sent to the "Blazar" vehicle(s) guarding the section of the approaching aircraft. Armoured crews will be informed of the incoming aircraft so that they can train their MGs or even the main guns (that is loaded with Israeli Lihat) at the general direction of the incoming aircrafts.
Some armoured infantry might be dispatched to be ready to engage the aircrafts with Igla (or even LAWs if they were choppers).
How's that.
I would either go for the following titles:
a. Perforator
b. Liquidator
c. Pulveriser
d. Basher
e. Splinter (or Splinterer)
f. Shredder
g. Piercer
or
h. Stilleto
i. Morning Star
j. Spear
k. Cudgel
l. Lance
m. Sickle
n. Kukri
o. Slingshot
p. Sledgehammer -
That's the thing, isn't it - MINDEF has always been comfortable operating in a Western military technology and tactics paradigm, and the West has always lagged behind the former Warsaw Pact in the development of effective mobile AA platforms.Originally posted by panzerjager:The Russian air defence forces have naturally been the inspiration for building up a strong air defence.
[...]
Nonetheless, Russian missile technology in the SAM department is revered to be even more advanced and cheaper than the latest that the West can offer.
I'm not sure about recent Western developments, but I remember how my old Cold War-era Salamander Books reviews unfailingly venerated the ZSU-23-4 while bemoaning the fact that Western equivalents like the Sergeant York were never up to scratch. Doctrinally, the former Warsaw Pact states have historically been more persuaded of the utility of mobile armoured AA units than the West has been.
With the Cold War over, though, as PJ has pointed out, nothing should stop us buying Russian if they can produce a superior product. Would it be possible for us to buy ZSU-23-4s (which could also complement armoured spearheads nicely by doubling as heavy anti-personnel units) or Tungustas? -
It was report a year ago that Sg buy Roland system from Frence. Anyone saw it yet? How is the performance of roland system?
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I'm interested in tactics used with ADA. In a fluid battle environment, there's always a good chance of friendly-fire AA as evidenced by the Argentinian side during the Falklands conflict; just one of many instances. In that engagement, the Brits used a simple box system where any aircraft in a particular box would be fired upon and the Brit pilots understood where to fly and where not to fly.
What other types of tactics are there for allied aircraft operating within the umbrella of ground-based AA? And don't tell me visual identification since in the confusion of battle, if you're under fire and under the stress of self-preservation, it would be too easy to fire an Igla at anything flying in the air. -
I think the key concern for the SAF when purchasing new equipments would be inter-compability with its other system, which fortunately or unfortunately are Western-dominated.Originally posted by subudei:That's the thing, isn't it - MINDEF has always been comfortable operating in a Western military technology and tactics paradigm, and the West has always lagged behind the former Warsaw Pact in the development of effective mobile AA platforms.
I'm not sure about recent Western developments, but I remember how my old Cold War-era Salamander Books reviews unfailingly venerated the ZSU-23-4 while bemoaning the fact that Western equivalents like the Sergeant York were never up to scratch. Doctrinally, the former Warsaw Pact states have historically been more persuaded of the utility of mobile armoured AA units than the West has been.
With the Cold War over, though, as PJ has pointed out, nothing should stop us buying Russian if they can produce a superior product. Would it be possible for us to buy ZSU-23-4s (which could also complement armoured spearheads nicely by doubling as heavy anti-personnel units) or Tungustas?
In such a case, purchasing a Russian ADA equipment like the Tunguska could pose problems in term of interfacing with our data networks such as interface from the Giraffe radars and E-2Cs. Case in point would be the SAF's purchase of the Igla, which as a MANPADs wouldn't require such a high level of interface. Just point them in the approximate direction and wait for the target to appear. On the other hand, even though Singapore had evaluated the S-300, no purchase has been reported to date. Undoubtedly there is the worry of introducing a new capability into the region, however, the S-300 would have been a mere step for the SAF to take from the retiring of the old Bloodhound long-range SAMs. A more likely scenario would be the difficulty in interfacing I guess... -
Personally, I rather like Russian ADA systems myself. They are more robust as compared to the Western systems and most importantly, they are specifically designed to handle the threats posed by Western fighter-bombers, which Singapore is likely to face... i.e. F/A 18s, Hawk light fighters, A-4s...
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Reading SIPRI awhile back, realised that Singapore has acquired 3,000 Iglas ( they are assembled/ license produced here by ST ).
And according to a JDW article, SG has the most densely protected
airspace in the world. SG currently lacks ( eversince our bloodhounds were sold to Myanmmar) is long range engagement SAMs. They have evaluated systems in the past( S300, Patriot etc..) but none have been selected yet.
Boeing recently was awarded a contract to supply to an undisclose
asian country PAC 3 SAM systems...wonder who? -
Originally posted by damienthedevil:
Taiwan!
Boeing recently was awarded a contract to supply to an undisclose
asian country PAC 3 SAM systems...wonder who? -
Since we are using the Aster system for our new frigates, maybe we should look at the land based version, maybe Aster 30 or 45!!! It is certainly fits the bill.
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SAF could use some of these at company or battalion level:
And in the Singapore MBT thread, it was pointed out that the gatling gun is good for blasting enemies hiding in high rise buildings as the elevation of the gun is big. -
my question is why it was never used?
more than 20 years ago, we were already using 20mm guns on V-150/200........and i think i saw one the other day near seletar... so my guess is that they are still using it......believe it or not..... if i were a tankee.... these junks really do not inspire any confidence.....
why not convert some surplus m113 or even the current v-150/200 with a gatling?
or better still since ST engg producess some 8x8 IFV, why not get some or air base defence........in this way, can use as SPAAG or even as a IFV. dual purpose...provides mobility and firepower
maybe can even station some of these 8x8 at the entrance of jurong island or even go round patrolling the island.... the sight will beimposing.....maybe even station a couple at changi airport.........
well this is after all a distant dream -
Kanzer
more than 20 years ago, we were already using 20mm guns on V-150/200........and i think i saw one the other day near seletar... so my guess is that they are still using it......believe it or not..... if i were a tankee.... these junks really do not inspire any confidence.....
Its used by the FDS for anti-airborne operation on airfields and not for AA role. ADA did mount some RBS70s and IGLAs on V150/200 which will be phased out shortly by the AA version Bionix. -
I like slingshot the best! Hahahaha.Originally posted by panzerjager:If we ever do eventually field such a capability, would be interesting to conjure up the name to match, in the similar manner as how one would label such a weapon system ?
I would either go for the following titles:
a. Perforator
b. Liquidator
c. Pulveriser
d. Basher
e. Splinter (or Splinterer)
f. Shredder
g. Piercer
or
h. Stilleto
i. Morning Star
j. Spear
k. Cudgel
l. Lance
m. Sickle
n. Kukri
o. Slingshot
p. Sledgehammer