Would You Do the Same for Someone You Hardly Know?
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think tat was Sgt. First Class Paul Howe..u got to respect this dude here man..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Of course, need I mention after the battle one of the operatives actually went into the enemy zone for three days and three nights to recover the bodies of his comrades, and he did it. Now, 1 guy against a hostile city. I wonder what that reflects on his rationality. -
Sorry to disappoint you, but I did read the "novel" of the black hawk down when it was first published, but I perfer not to memorized each page by heart like you do.
Could someone explain the mystery, that with all the good facts provide by StoryNathan and Viper52, that M4 with 5.56 armour pirecing round are totally ineffective again human target. And here we are still talking about it is right to send 2 guys, one with a M21 and a M4 ( incorrect combination of rifle/round = useless gun, thanks viper52 for his arguement on that) on the ground.
Does that ring a bell that something is very wrong with still thinking it is right to send them in, when you gurus already knows you are sending in one person with effective weapon M21, and another with a weapon M4 with a useless ammo. Obviously why memorized the book when you don't learn the mistakes from it ? -
im disappointed..obviously if u want to argue on this issue..u shld know that the weapon they carry are the M14(M21) n CAR-15..Originally posted by storywolf:Sorry to disappoint you, but I did read the "novel" of the black hawk down when it was first published, but I perfer not to memorized each page by heart like you do.
Could someone explain the mystery, that with all the good facts provide by StoryNathan and Viper52, that M4 with 5.56 armour pirecing round are totally in effective again human target. And here we are still talking about it is right to send 2 guys, one with a M21 and a M4 ( incorrect combination of rifle/round = useless gun, thanks viper52 for his arguement on that) on the ground.
Does that ring a bell that something is very wrong with still thinking it is right to send them in, when you gurus already knows you are sending in one person with effective weapon M21, and another with a weapon M4 with a shit ammo. Obviously why memorized the book when you don't learn the mistakes from it ?
u got one weapon wrong..so go read again..
M21 using 7.62 round...CAR-15 was using 5.56(not sure if it is AP anot)..
if u bother to read ST post on 5.56 FMJ round n the AP Green tip round..u shld understand the logic behind it..
im not sure wat u are toking abt in this post..paiseh my england no good..u need to use simple england..i agar agar trying to post wat u tryin to say..
how come u say its a mistake? did u throw in any valid facts saying its a mistake?
u even make a silly mistake on the weapon use..
i get it now..
no one is for sure that CAR-15 was using green tip AP round..
the rest of the Rangers definitely using the grren tip round..because they draw it from the same armory..
base on the book..the Delta guys use their own ammo n their own modify weapon..
so to draw conclusion saying that the CAR-15 is useless also..is flaw..
the last to use the Gordon CAR-15 was Durant...
read this incident.."A man tried to climb over the wall and Durant shot him. Another came crawling from around the corner with a weapon and Durant shot him."
n btw the Rangers are using M16s..wats the different between M16s, CAR15 n M4?
read one call effective range..think deep n u will understand.. -
HI Nathan,
Sorry you are the one that got it wrong this time ! One is M21, the other is a not a car-15. Most US ops now use the short version of M162 variants which is call M4, it may look like a car-15 but it is not.
Ok let presume you are right it is a car15(still a M16 variant). "Not sure the car-15 was using(not sure if Ap anot).... ?" Come on give me a break, one moment viper52, sending a few posting correcting me( when I assume they are not AP) that all spec ops is issued with AP 5.56 and telling me to read the book ! You wrote a few supporting posting on that too. And suddenly you decide to declare amnesia say you are not sure ? Go read Viper52 posting, better still I will paste it below for you.
Below 2 are what Viper52 say !
"Shugart was known to be armed with an M14 semi-automatic rifle. Reading through the book, it is doubtful if M16 variants would be more useful in their situation, as there were much dissatisfaction with the ammo used in the battle, since it was designed to defeat body armour and the mobs didn't use any, there were several occasions when the Rangers and Deltas found that their 5.56s went right through without doing much damage and each target required several rounds before being stopped for good. Hardly something you'd want to in the snipers' position."
"And according to Nathan, the book Black Hawk down had several references to how several rounds were needed to stop each Somali. And also several references to how targets hit by a round continued running or picked themselves up under their own steam. More tellingly, at least one veteran of Mogadishu interviewed by Mark Bowden recalled how he felt stupid for mocking Randy Shugart for carrying the antique rifle before the mission, and wishing he had the M-14 and its 7.62mm stopping power after seeing the Somalis he had hit with the 5.56mm pick themselves up or simply continue running." -
Double Post
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i went thru the book again n again..it is CAR-15 not M4..if u doubt me..u doubt the book..because i have the book now with me..read chapter 18..where Shughart handed Durant Gordon CAR-15..not M4..Originally posted by storywolf:HI Nathan,
Sorry you are the one that got it wrong this time ! One is M21, the other is a not a car-15. Most US ops now use the short version of M162 variants which is call M4, it may look like a car-15 but it is not.
Ok let presume that US spec ops are so poor that they use the old car-15(still a M16 variant). "Not sure the car-15 was using(not sure if Ap anot).... ?" Come on give me a break, one moment viper52 have clearly stated the facts and correcting me on a few posting that all spec ops is issued with AP 5.56 and telling me to read the book !!! and here you are not sure ? You should know ! Go read Viper52 posting, better still I will paste it below for you.
Below 2 are what Viper52 say !!!
"Shugart was known to be armed with an M14 semi-automatic rifle. Reading through the book, it is doubtful if M16 variants would be more useful in their situation, as there were much dissatisfaction with the ammo used in the battle, since it was designed to defeat body armour and the mobs didn't use any, there were several occasions when the Rangers and Deltas found that their 5.56s went right through without doing much damage and each target required several rounds before being stopped for good. Hardly something you'd want to in the snipers' position."
"The book Black Hawk down had several references to how several rounds were needed to stop each Somali. And also several references to how targets hit by a round continued running or picked themselves up under their own steam. More tellingly, at least one veteran of Mogadishu interviewed by Mark Bowden recalled how he felt stupid for mocking Randy Shugart for carrying the antique rifle before the mission, and wishing he had the M-14 and its 7.62mm stopping power after seeing the Somalis he had hit with the 5.56mm pick themselves up or simply continue running."
its either u assume..that me n Viper are the same person..pls give me a kit kat....sori my view is difference from his on this part..
base on my knowledge..the Rangers were using the green tip or SLAP round..im not sure wat round the Delta use..
btw..the issue here is concerning whether it is correct to send the 2 delta sniper in...n they were using AP rounds...im i correct?
so lets say..if u were the commanders..who shld u sent in? -
Hi Nathan,
If you don't even know what the ammos the guys are carrying whether they are suitable for anti-personnal, how it justify to say it is correct to send them in ? The moment you say you don't know, what rounds, you already clearly stated that you are not in a position to jusify their firepower, to do the job effectively !
If you send 2 guy in with M21 & a car-15 with "amoured pirecing" rounds, and ask them to do anti-personal which the rounds is not suited for, then sending them in is not questionable ? Is it not the job for professional commanders to know their ammos and their purpose, even viper52 and other like you, read about it from books ! Oh so the commander who send them in may not read enough books on guns and ammos, or we presume he have amnesia and forgot what rounds they are all issued. Whatever it is still a mistake on someone part ! -
i must admit..its my bad on not knowing wat rounds the CAR15 use..Originally posted by storywolf:Hi Nathan,
If you don't even know what the ammos the guys are carrying whether they are suitable for anti-personnal, how it justify to say it is correct to send them in ? The moment you say you don't know, what rounds, you already clearly stated that you are not in a position to jusify their firepower, to do the job effectively !
hey at least i admit..not like some
seriously..u have a weird logic there...just becos i dunno wat round the CAR15 were using..means im not in a position to justify their firepower? so i guess the M14 or M21 is non existance?
but..the issue here is abt whether it was right to send the 2 sniper in? im i correct?
do u know the purpose of sending them in the 1st place?
so if u are the commanders..wat would u do?
u realize u only zoom in on the firepower...but u never put in place the situation the ability n mindset of the 2 snipers..
yes..i can agree if u that the 2 snipers does not have enough firepower...does it mean we shld left Durant down there to die? -
Nathan,
"u realize u only zoom in on the firepower...but u never put in place the situation the ability n mindset of the 2 snipers.. "
Ok then let talk about the special abilities! Snipers and Sp Ops delta force are still humans. They may react faster, fitter, shoot better, but still human and can be kill with just one lucky or well aim rounds. Don't give me the matrix stuff, that they can dodge bullets !
Let talk about mindset, so they are determined people. So there are obvious as just as determined folks in the mobs that want to kill them. Determination is not a lucky charm agains bullets.
Let talk about the Situation, the US did not know what hit them when things started, With situation in the lost and reported mobs, the situation is in favour of the mobs, they are harden folks who live there, day and night, know the streets. And been fighting endless street wars with other gangs and gain valuable knowledge ( which is something, the US underestimated). Large mob with AK 47s & some RPGs, does not need to take a math genius, to calculate the fight was over before it began. Yep so the M21 is a great weapon you argued can do take down a person, the other side will take a RPG to compare with it, they are still outgunned.
Yes the delta folks are great, but pls give more credits to the those on the opposite sides, they are living in hell most of their live, and to be survive there, those are folks are very special also.
Letting someone die is very hard especially when it happen around us, a lot of things is beyond human abilities, but then must ask if "going in to die with him" serve any purpose. -
once again u are right..but it was slug out in Gary post also..so pls stop repeating wat he wana say...give me something new..Originally posted by storywolf:Nathan,
"u realize u only zoom in on the firepower...but u never put in place the situation the ability n mindset of the 2 snipers.. "
Ok then let talk about the special abilities! Snipers and Sp Ops delta force are still humans. They may react faster, fitter, shoot better, but still human and can be kill with just one lucky or well aim rounds. Don't give me the matrix stuff, that they can dodge bullets !
Let talk about mindset, so they are determined people. So there are obvious as just as determined folks in the mobs that want to kill them. Determination is not a lucky charm agains bullets.
Let talk about the Situation, the US did not know what hit them when things started, With situation in the lost and reported mobs, the situation is in favour of the mobs, they are harden folks who live there, day and night, know the streets. And been fighting endless street wars with other gangs and gain valuable knowledge ( which is something, the US underestimated). Large mob with AK 47s & some RPGs, does not need to take a math genius, to calculate the fight was over before it began. Yep so the M21 is a great weapon you argued can do take down a person, the other side will take a RPG to compare with it, they are still outgunned.
Yes the delta folks are great, but pls give more credits to the those on the opposite sides, they are living in hell most of their live, and to be survive there, those are folks are very special also.
18 US death 70 or more badly injured..
500 or more Somalis death n over thousand injured..
hey its special indeed..very special..
base on your genius mathematic calculation..TFR n the Deltas shld have been wipe out in the battle..
u never answer my last question..
if u are the commander...wat will u do? -
dear storywolf
u make it sound like there is no purpose of sending in the delta snipers at all..
have u read the other post between me n Gary...
there is a reason y the delta was send in..
but before that..answer the question i post to u n Gary..
n if your answer is leaving Durant to die is the right thing..hope u will never be my commanders.. -
Well the argument will have no end right ? There is totally no right or wrong. I surrender !!! Haha good fight viper52, nathan and Gary.
I am glad to see there is a lot of hot blood folks here who been giving great postings on the important of saving someone regardless of cost of their lifes.
How about instead, we write endless of useless posting. Let all forget about our differences, and change it to something useful and meaningful.
Great now that I got everyone hot up with postings, now come the real purpose ! The blood bank is running short of blood with the recent incidents and need our help. Let get the senior members to organize a gathering for blood donation, I am sure asking for a little blood from all the brave caring and wonderful folks regardless of which view point is very little to ask for, think of the lives you will save.
Any senior member willing to help ? I promise after that I be a good soldier and not try to be a pain in ass in my posting
.
Thank you
Your friendly
Storywolf -
no storywolfOriginally posted by storywolf:Well the argument will have no end right ? There is totally no right or wrong. I surrender !!! Haha good fight viper52, nathan and Gary.
I am glad to see there is a lot of hot blood folks here who been giving great postings on the important of saving someone regardless of cost of their lifes.
How about instead, we write endless of useless posting. Let all forget about our differences, and change it to something useful and meaningful.
Great now that I got everyone hot up, with postings now come the real purpose. The blood bank is running short of blood with the recent incidents and need our help. Let get the senior members to organize a gathering for blood donation, I am sure asking for a little blood from all the brave caring and wonderful folks regardless of which view point is very little to ask for, think of the lives you will save.
Any senior member willing to help ? I promise after that I be a good soldier and not try to be a pain in ass in my posting.
Thank you
Your friendly
Storywolf
u n Gary are right abt lotsa thing..
i believe we have box in too close on the Delta Snipers n Mike Durant..
but if we take a step backward n look at the whole situation..our view will be different..
the main reason the Delta Snipers were send in because they assume the convoy was on its way..so they were needed to hold off the mob awhile..
but the convoy never reach in time...
there are 2 crash site n 3 black hawk damage that fly limping back to base.. -
hey i dun mind at all...never donate my blood before lehOriginally posted by storywolf:Well the argument will have no end right ? There is totally no right or wrong. I surrender !!! Haha good fight viper52, nathan and Gary.
I am glad to see there is a lot of hot blood folks here who been giving great postings on the important of saving someone regardless of cost of their lifes.
How about instead, we write endless of useless posting. Let all forget about our differences, and change it to something useful and meaningful.
Great now that I got everyone hot up, with postings now come the real purpose. The blood bank is running short of blood with the recent incidents and need our help. Let get the senior members to organize a gathering for blood donation, I am sure asking for a little blood from all the brave caring and wonderful folks regardless of which view point is very little to ask for, think of the lives you will save.
Any senior member willing to help ? I promise after that I be a good soldier and not try to be a pain in ass in my posting.
Thank you
Your friendly
Storywolf -
The issue we're all debating about is why the commander sent the 2 snipers down to rescue the pilot. Now, quoting from the book,
"This was not a hopeless mission. One or two properly armed, well-trained soldiers could hold off an undisciplined enemy indefinitely. Shughart and Gordon were experts at killing and staying alive. They were career soldiers trained to get hard, ugly things done."
"Hold off" in the quote here does NOT mean "shoot em all to pieces". It means "keep yourselves and the pilot alive".
The snipers' mission was NOT
"Engage and try to kill 1 million sammies and die to get a MoH".
Neither was it
"See sammy dude, shoot sammy dude, kill sammy"
The snipers' mission were to
"Rescue the pilot"
Rescue missions are covert. As ST said, they were supposed to either- (1)sneak the pilot to safety if possible, then extract quietly or
(2)hole up somewhere, wait for support, then get the extract the pilot to safety
They were not trying to herd 300 civilians to safety in broad daylight waving the american flag in the process. They were trying to extract survivors with 2 men as quickly, and as quietly as they can.
It is always best NOT to engage if doing so will interfere with your mission. Imagine a 300+ strong Infantry Battalion on foot en route to some objective when 3 snipers shoot the middle of the column. Going by gary's gungho RoE, the entire battalion should engage because they are just there for them to shoot at.
Please get it into your head that "The snipers weren't there to take on X enemies." If possible, I am very sure the snipers would prefer to hide somewhere and wait for the mob to go somewhere else searching for the pilot.
As the cliche goes "The best plan in the world survives only the first minute of battle", so did their plan. It went to hell, they got surrounded by sammies and we all know the rest.
Sh!t happens. Always does during war and the 2 brave snipers got killed.
And I reiterate that "Col Harrell was an experienced commander. But more importantly, he, more than anyone one of us in the entire forum, knew his own guys and the Mogadishu ground. He knew the situation, knew what the enemy was capable of, and what his own men can do. If he felt his guys can take the heat, who the heck are we to say no?"
If you wanna argue about why rescue the pilot at all because of the risk involved, please read my earlier post with the nicoll highway analogy (page 3).
Lastly, IMO the ammo and gun are slightly out of point. It's like saying they shouldn't have used Black Hawks in Mogadishu, but (correct me if i'm wrong) Black Hawks were all they had. Same case with the rescue, the snipers and their equipment were all Mike Durant had. -
Cool Nathan, thanks.
So far that 2 for the count ! Anyone else ? Come on it for a good cause.
Blood donation List
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Nathan
Storywolf -
Hi Meander,
Ok meander you win, now I just care about your blood ! Refer to my posting on suggestion on blood donation drive. Give some of your blood to help save some life ? just a little of your blood, also hopefully got pretty nurses for you to see.
So far Nathan and me is in, you in or out ?
Best Regards
Storywolf -
double posting
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triple posting
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So ST, from your post , I believe you are saying that 2 snipers cannot hold the perimeter against a large mob of with automatic weapons and RPG, right? I think we certainly agree on this point.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Gary is indeed the one who is caught up with emotionism here.
He can't get it out of his mind that the D-boys didn't go down there to fight 100+ skinnies or establish a perimeter. They were going down there to get the aircrew. Unlike Gary, who is mad enough to dream up such ideas, professional D-boys avoid firefightrs unless they really have to. Gary just can't get it out of his head that they weren't going in on a sucide mission. The outcome nevertheless.
Unfortunately, things did not turn out quite that way for them, and one thing that Gary has failed to prove, despite his exausive attempts to fit a square peg into a round hole, was that the D-operatives chose their actions based on emotionism and irrationality.
What's obvious is that they weren't going in there to fight sammies off (even the most irrational would know they didn't stand a chance), they were going in to get the crew otta there, and probably to some safe area they could hold out for a while until help arrived. It was a dangerous undertaking that went wrong. Could their plan had worked? Certainly, but it was risky and could go wrong, and it did.
How would they be considered irrational? If they decided that they could acomplish their mission by fighting off the mob on their own, and that was their main action plan. Which is nuts and certainly wasn't in their decks. They were forced to fight the mob, they certainly didn't camp out and wait for the mob to come to them while they sniped away.
Of course, need I mention after the battle one of the operatives actually went into the enemy zone for three days and three nights to recover the bodies of his comrades, and he did it. Now, 1 guy against a hostile city. I wonder what that reflects on his rationality.
The best I can determine is that Gary suffers from a bad case of hollywood logic, where the only solution he sees to the problem is by force and action alone. While they ended up using up all their ammo and having to fight to the finish. One wonders if that was their actual intention or plan when they went in. And if that wasn't their intention, their undertaking certainly wasn't irrational, or emotional. It was a calculated risk that went wrong.
If Gary's logic is to be followed, every soldier who died when the odds were against him is irrational or emotional.
Now , you also speculated that they a have plan to move to a more defendable location to increase the odds.That is your basis or your argument to increase their survivability. Yes very logical, every soldier we always try to improve their cover.
But even b4 they landed, they were already a small mob near the crash site, this was indicated in the citation, the book as well as the movie. i.e. the area was already hot, therefore they need to fight their way out if they were going to more defendable location!
Now,was any more defendable location near crash site in the first place?
The problem with this speculation, from the book, the movie as well as the citation as indicated otherwise, when they reached the crash site , checked the injured, pulled Durant to one side and started to defend.
No indication at all that they even attempt to carry Durant out of the crash site. No indication from any sources as well abt any plan to move to a more defendable location. But certainly the crash site was already hot with skinnies even b4 they have landed.
Pure speculation from your part, ST.
Now ST , you did not even think it thru, let assume that you are right, they going to fight thru the blockade carrying the casualty to a more defendable location.
In the actual senario, it was only one casualty and three dead, so one sniper would have to carry Durant, making him combat ineffective, for example fireman lift, he has only one free hand, unable to aim well, unable to reload as well as run fast enough becos of additional weight and fight thru the blockade!!!
Therefore even this questionable!
Now what would have happened if that were two or more casualties?
Two would have made both snipers even more combat ineffective.
Three would have been a problem, take two and leave one to die? Nah , all 5 would be on the crash defending against the mob.
If you have thought thru the casualty factor , it will not so rational afterall!!!! -
Hehe storywolf I was probably typing when you declared cease fire
If you posted it earlier, it would have saved 15 minutes of my time. I shall stop posting in this thread, it's getting boring and one-sided anyway ...
Btw, that was a triple post wolf. Spammer !!!
erm ... I kinda hate needles
, but in light of recent events, maybe I'll give it a try. -
Cool Meader Don't worry, you will not feel it, I will consider you in. Let you choose the pretty young nurse 1st.
Sorry ! I have butter fingers so triple post !
Come on those who is so are so passionate in saving people, am asking you only to give blood not your life.
For those who are the opposite side, don't worry, asking you to face nurse with needles only, no the mob, it is something you will walk out in one piece.
So what about it folks ? If still want to fight it out, let see who the top donor is, at least it a end that have facts to support.
So far on the blood donation list is
Nathan , Meander , Storywolf
Note : Warning from experience, it is better not to choose the young and pretty nurse, as they are usually the inexperience one, who will cause pain when inserting needle. Haha ! -
Let me say talk abt the other incident where there was one soldier was "left to die".Originally posted by NathanG5:dear storywolf
u make it sound like there is no purpose of sending in the delta snipers at all..
have u read the other post between me n Gary...
there is a reason y the delta was send in..
but before that..answer the question i post to u n Gary..
n if your answer is leaving Durant to die is the right thing..hope u will never be my commanders..
Cpl Smith was fatally injured becos of a ruptured artery, the medic immediately ask for immediate medical evac, the request gone thru the chain of command and was rejected becos the area was still hot and they could not risk another "bird" with a crew of 3-4.
The commanders are no doctors therefore they would have to believe the medic that he was critically injured and need medical attention with proper equipment otherwise he would have died!!!!
Now here was one life, and risks I believe was even lower than what the two snipers faced and yet they rejected them!?!
Why??
The same reason I have given earliar , if the risk to take is too high where more soldiers will be more likely to be killed rather than saving more lives then it should not be taken!!!
You are naive to think that no one ever left to die, it was just that they were never publicised and became statistics, the case is one example, and nobody will fault the commander for this decision, that is the reality of war thru out history, I believe there are many cases of such incident, just that you and I will never know becos they were never publicised in books or movies.
You guys are talking abt saving even one life no matter what the odds, that is not rational, this has happened in the past and will continue so in the future , that is the reality!!!!
If you guys can't accept that view, that is your preogative!!!
Continue agrue at this point , well quite pointless, as it is subjective. -
Meander, I have not declare to ceasefire yet, I am not that nice, in fact I am totally opposite just plain cheating, just moving the battleground to donote blood only ! We should see on the new battleground who have the most blood to donate
Vampwolf take a straw and walk over to Meander and say......give me your blood ! .ha .. ha .. ha ! -
his name n rank is Cpl Jamie Smith..wat a joke..is that the only thing u can come up with?Originally posted by gary1910:Let me say talk abt the other incident where there was one soldier was "left to die".
Cpl Smith was fatally injured becos of a ruptured artery, the medic immediately ask for immediate medical evac, the request gone thru the chain of command and was rejected becos the area was still hot and they could not risk another "bird" with a crew of 3-4.
The commanders are no doctors therefore they would have to believe the medic that he was critically injured and need medical attention with proper equipment otherwise he would have died!!!!
Now here was one life, and risks I believe was even lower than what the two snipers faced and yet they rejected them!?!
Why??
The same reason I have given earliar , if the risk to take is too high where more soldiers will be killed rather saving more lives than it should not be taken!!!
You are naive to think that no one ever left to die, it was just that they were never publicised and became statistics, the case is one example, and nobody will fault the commander for this decision, that is the reality of war thru out history, I believe there are many cases of such incident, just that you and I will never know becos they were never publicised in books or movies.
You guys are talking abt saving even one life no matter what the odds, that is not rational, this has happened in the past and will continue so in the future , that is the reality!!!!
If you guys can't accept that view, that is your preogative!!!
Continue agrue at this point , well quite pointless, as it is subjective.
seriously u are giving yourself a dead end..
read on naive one..
the difference between the 2 incident is so obvious..that i wonder y u brought it up..
Durant crash site-
they were sending in only 2 Delta Snipers..to hold off the mob until the convoy reach them..
simple task..go in n secure as best as possible..but the convoy never reach..
Cpl Jamie Smith-
they were asking for a Black Hawk..how many Black Hawk are available during that time..go count yourself!!!
do u know the procedure of CSAR??
how the hell u gona land a Black Hawk in a hot street?
hey you are the genius here..tell me how u gona do that?
even with the little bird flying around the area..the barely escape being hit by RPG!!
n pls get your FARKING FACTS RITE!!
there is another convoy tryin to reach the wounded..Cpl Smith have people to DEFEND HIM!!! does Durant have people to DEFEND him?
does Durant have medic with him?
stop watching the damn movie arse!
the reason Cpl Smith die because the commander-in chief n some senators are not willing to pull in the Bradleys for the Task Force!!!
Father of Cpl Smith never blame the Task Force commanders..the father even insult President Clinton during the 2 snipers MOH ceremony!!!
i cant believe u farking come up with this lame crap...its 2 different situation!!!!
READ !!!!!
pls imagine it yourself in REAL TIME!!! NOT 2 HOUR!!!
there is a questioning regarding y wasnt any evec for Cpl Smith...
there was no court hearing for Durant incident...
get it?
U STILL HAVE NOT ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!!