How to deal with ASTROS?
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Hi all,
My maiden posting here so forgive me if I break any taboos. I've read the previous thread on ASTROS but found that most posts concentrate on the merits of ASTROS/MLRS itself. Hence, I would like to bring out a slightly different point: the effectiveness of anti-ASTROS measures. During the First Gulf War, the Coalition devoted a substantial amount of resources (15% of Coalition aircraft and SOP forces e.g. SAS) to finding Iraq's mobile Scud launchers but this was widely regarded as one of the most famous failures of the Gulf War. See http://www.cdiss.org/scudnt6.htm main reasons being Iraqi deception and "shoot and scoot" capabiliy of Iraqi missile crews. If the US could not pinpoint those Scud launchers in the wide open Arabian deserts, what chance does the SAF has against a well-hidden ASTROS unit in secondary rainforest, ready to scramble after firing? Would any expert like to clarify on our counter-battery options? Second point, I think many of the posts about the ASTROS's accuracy are tactically correct but strategically off the mark. Coming back to the First Gulf War, the Scuds were not used against Coalition forces but Israeli cities. In a heavily built-up area like Singapore, the ASTROS does not have to be very accurate to inflict massive civilian casualties. Israel got off lightly but during the Iran-Iraq war when Iraq sent a torrent of Scuds on Teheran in the "War of the Cities", the casualties were severe. Due to the distance between Iraq and Israel coupled with sophisticated monitoring equipment, Israel was able to have a few minutes of advance warning, enough time to sound an air raid siren and send its people into shelters. Can Singapore do the same with a Malaysian ASTROS rocket from Johor? Added to this, we do not have any technology to shoot rockets out of the sky. I've heard of the I-Hawk being modified for anti-ballistic missile function in the US though. -
The difference is that the SCUD was feared by the coaltion to be carrying either nukes or bio chem weapons.....Originally posted by Langley:Hi all,
My maiden posting here so forgive me if I break any taboos. I've read the previous thread on ASTROS but found that most posts concentrate on the merits of ASTROS/MLRS itself. Hence, I would like to bring out a slightly different point: the effectiveness of anti-ASTROS measures. During the First Gulf War, the Coalition devoted a substantial amount of resources (15% of Coalition aircraft and SOP forces e.g. SAS) to finding Iraq's mobile Scud launchers but this was widely regarded as one of the most famous failures of the Gulf War. See http://www.cdiss.org/scudnt6.htm main reasons being Iraqi deception and "shoot and scoot" capabiliy of Iraqi missile crews. If the US could not pinpoint those Scud launchers in the wide open Arabian deserts, what chance does the SAF has against a well-hidden ASTROS unit in secondary rainforest, ready to scramble after firing? Would any expert like to clarify on our counter-battery options? Second point, I think many of the posts about the ASTROS's accuracy are tactically correct but strategically off the mark. Coming back to the First Gulf War, the Scuds were not used against Coalition forces but Israeli cities. In a heavily built-up area like Singapore, the ASTROS does not have to be very accurate to inflict massive civilian casualties. Israel got off lightly but during the Iran-Iraq war when Iraq sent a torrent of Scuds on Teheran in the "War of the Cities", the casualties were severe. Due to the distance between Iraq and Israel coupled with sophisticated monitoring equipment, Israel was able to have a few minutes of advance warning, enough time to sound an air raid siren and send its people into shelters. Can Singapore do the same with a Malaysian ASTROS rocket from Johor? Added to this, we do not have any technology to shoot rockets out of the sky. I've heard of the I-Hawk being modified for anti-ballistic missile function in the US though.
Will go more into this later...for now i have to bloody study for my engineering materials.....HELP ME EUROFIGHTER!!!!!!!
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Heh, you're from NTU rite. Engin there is xiong. Yah true, no two situations are alike. Another difference is that Scuds are tactical ballistic missiles and ASTROS are rockets. But I feel the analogy is still holds in Singapore's case. I quote Derek da Cunha, S'porean defence analyst:
A simple description of the effect of the different impact of artillery employed by Malaysia and Singapore against each other is suffice to make the point of how artillery could skew the dynamic and provide a possible equaliser in firepower terms for Malaysia. A battalion of MLRS, such as the Astros II, although an area saturation system, is essentially a tactical unit. If such a battalion is deployed by the Singapore Armed Forces to the northern part of the island facing Malaysia, it remains a tactical unit. However, if the same MLRS battalion is deployed by the Malaysian Armed Forces to the southern part of peninsular Malaysia, facing Singapore, it is likely to instantly transform itself from a tactical to a strategic unit, because it brings the entire, heavily builtup and densely populated island of Singapore within range. Geographical asymmetry thus results in a significant military asymmetry. Indeed, in conceptual terms, this in fact can be viewed as a form of asymmetrical warfare.
The argument can be advanced further and put it in more graphic terms. Once the Malaysian MLRS battalion and other heavy artillery become operational and are deployed in significant numbers in the near future, one might then be able to describe
the Malaysian Armed Forces in relation to the Singapore Armed Forces by drawing an analogy from medieval times. The Singapore Armed Forces could be described as a rapier; it is manoeuvrable, slick, and, in the hands of a skilled swordsman, can do all the fancy moves in attempting to deliver the lethal stab. On the other hand, the Malaysian Armed Forces is like a broadsword; its not very manoeuvrable, not slick, and, even in the hands of as skilled swordsman, is unlikely to do all the fancy moves. Indeed, it is fairly lumbering and unwieldy. However, in the ultimate analysis, a single slash of the broadsword could well result in the rapier snapping in half.
Source: Renewed Military Buildups Post-Asian Crisis: The Effect on Two Key Southeast Asian Bilateral Military Balances
www.iseas.edu.sg/ipsi32001.pdf -
once those rockets are in the air i don't suppose there's anything we can do to prevent casualties do we? all we can do is try to take out the ASTROS' from the air before it can let loose the next salvo..and probably return fire with our own artillery i suppose
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Originally posted by Langley:
No lah i'm from Singapore Poly.....anyway i've said this before once out of johore city it would be hard to conceal the location of the MRLS.Why? because in a rainforest or even a plantation there is simply no clearing u can shoot out off.You need a clearing or make a clearing in order to shoot.With a limited number of clearings around we can always watch those...while having UAV's patorling to see if they are setting up to create more clearings....Also simply firing the MRLS rockets into Singapore will cause 1 problem....it will likely kill civillians and bring some sort of response from the other nations in the world.
Heh, you're from NTU rite. Engin there is xiong. Yah true, no two situations are alike. Another difference is that Scuds are tactical ballistic missiles and ASTROS are rockets. But I feel the analogy is still holds in Singapore's case. I quote Derek da Cunha, S'porean defence analyst:
[b]A simple description of the effect of the different impact of artillery employed by Malaysia and Singapore against each other is suffice to make the point of how artillery could skew the dynamic and provide a possible equaliser in firepower terms for Malaysia. A battalion of MLRS, such as the Astros II, although an area saturation system, is essentially a tactical unit. If such a battalion is deployed by the Singapore Armed Forces to the northern part of the island facing Malaysia, it remains a tactical unit. However, if the same MLRS battalion is deployed by the Malaysian Armed Forces to the southern part of peninsular Malaysia, facing Singapore, it is likely to instantly transform itself from a tactical to a strategic unit, because it brings the entire, heavily builtup and densely populated island of Singapore within range. Geographical asymmetry thus results in a significant military asymmetry. Indeed, in conceptual terms, this in fact can be viewed as a form of asymmetrical warfare.
The argument can be advanced further and put it in more graphic terms. Once the Malaysian MLRS battalion and other heavy artillery become operational and are deployed in significant numbers in the near future, one might then be able to describe
the Malaysian Armed Forces in relation to the Singapore Armed Forces by drawing an analogy from medieval times. The Singapore Armed Forces could be described as a rapier; it is manoeuvrable, slick, and, in the hands of a skilled swordsman, can do all the fancy moves in attempting to deliver the lethal stab. On the other hand, the Malaysian Armed Forces is like a broadsword; its not very manoeuvrable, not slick, and, even in the hands of as skilled swordsman, is unlikely to do all the fancy moves. Indeed, it is fairly lumbering and unwieldy. However, in the ultimate analysis, a single slash of the broadsword could well result in the rapier snapping in half.
Source: Renewed Military Buildups Post-Asian Crisis: The Effect on Two Key Southeast Asian Bilateral Military Balances
www.iseas.edu.sg/ipsi32001.pdf[/b] -
THEL
tactical high energy laser!!
from israel
designed to blast incoming rockets out of the sky -
more like blast anything out of the sky.....they were after all testing it out on arty rounds! haah yea that'd workOriginally posted by wd1:THEL
tactical high energy laser!!
from israel
designed to blast incoming rockets out of the sky -
Cool... The only problems I see with this system are cost and saturation. Like how China always said they'll build more missiles to overwhem any ballistic missile defences. But if we can afford it, good..
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You calling for me?Originally posted by |-|05|:The difference is that the SCUD was feared by the coaltion to be carrying either nukes or bio chem weapons.....
Will go more into this later...for now i have to bloody study for my engineering materials.....HELP ME EUROFIGHTER!!!!!!! 
Need help on the typhoon's composites materials? -
no you prick!Originally posted by eurofighter:You calling for me? Need help on the typhoon's composites materials? 
i wan help in engineering materials!! u took already rite?? helpppppp -
I different from your course how to help? But i saw my friend's one like quite easy. Jus memorise all the way.
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There's a possible countermeasure against counter-battery fire offered by rocket artillery itself, in the form of veering the rocket off the predicted ballistic trajectory. A realisation of this is in the US' ATACMs launched from MLRS itself. Enemy counter-fire radar could be deceived and the supposes computed counter-fire mission may not get the actual launch site.Originally posted by Langley:Hi all,
My maiden posting here so forgive me if I break any taboos. I've read the previous thread on ASTROS but found that most posts concentrate on the merits of ASTROS/MLRS itself. Hence, I would like to bring out a slightly different point: the effectiveness of anti-ASTROS measures. During the First Gulf War, the Coalition devoted a substantial amount of resources (15% of Coalition aircraft and SOP forces e.g. SAS) to finding Iraq's mobile Scud launchers but this was widely regarded as one of the most famous failures of the Gulf War. See http://www.cdiss.org/scudnt6.htm main reasons being Iraqi deception and "shoot and scoot" capabiliy of Iraqi missile crews. If the US could not pinpoint those Scud launchers in the wide open Arabian deserts, what chance does the SAF has against a well-hidden ASTROS unit in secondary rainforest, ready to scramble after firing? Would any expert like to clarify on our counter-battery options? Second point, I think many of the posts about the ASTROS's accuracy are tactically correct but strategically off the mark. Coming back to the First Gulf War, the Scuds were not used against Coalition forces but Israeli cities. In a heavily built-up area like Singapore, the ASTROS does not have to be very accurate to inflict massive civilian casualties. Israel got off lightly but during the Iran-Iraq war when Iraq sent a torrent of Scuds on Teheran in the "War of the Cities", the casualties were severe. Due to the distance between Iraq and Israel coupled with sophisticated monitoring equipment, Israel was able to have a few minutes of advance warning, enough time to sound an air raid siren and send its people into shelters. Can Singapore do the same with a Malaysian ASTROS rocket from Johor? Added to this, we do not have any technology to shoot rockets out of the sky. I've heard of the I-Hawk being modified for anti-ballistic missile function in the US though.
Normal rocket artillery could be modified quite easily to achieve this kind of performance -
Now you are actually talking abt guided tactical missile which are are actually GPS guided.Originally posted by panzerjager:There's a possible countermeasure against counter-battery fire offered by rocket artillery itself, in the form of veering the rocket off the predicted ballistic trajectory. A realisation of this is in the US' ATACMs launched from MLRS itself. Enemy counter-fire radar could be deceived and the supposes computed counter-fire mission may not get the actual launch site.
Normal rocket artillery could be modified quite easily to achieve this kind of performance
The Astros 2 SS series rocket are unguided and not even a controlled rockets. I think at this moment , I think only the US has operationally deployed this guided technology, not even the Russian has deployed such weapons yet.
Therefore ,it is not as simple as you think.
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Can be strapped on to existing MLRS as upgrade packages/kitsOriginally posted by gary1910:Now you are actually talking abt guided tactical missile which are are actually GPS guided.
The Astros 2 SS series rocket are unguided and not even a controlled rockets. I think at this moment , I think only the US has operationally deployed this guided technology, not even the Russian has deployed such weapons yet.
Therefore ,it is not as simple as you think. -
Can be strapped on to existing MLRS as upgrade packages/kitsOriginally posted by gary1910:Now you are actually talking abt guided tactical missile which are are actually GPS guided.
The Astros 2 SS series rocket are unguided and not even a controlled rockets. I think at this moment , I think only the US has operationally deployed this guided technology, not even the Russian has deployed such weapons yet.
Therefore ,it is not as simple as you think. -
u'd have to change the fin area and the front area....much like fixing a guide system to a MK84 bomb....Originally posted by panzerjager:Can be strapped on to existing MLRS as upgrade packages/kits
not as easy as you think though.... -
so how, your engineering materials study already?
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wad makes u think we dun have mlrs also?
LOL!
we have every damn thing in the world!
ANyways, who needs MLRS when we have Long Toms, mad cats, direwolves and gundams? -
Are these rocket launchers similar to ASTROS?
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Malaysia may buy rocket launchers from Pakistan
14 April 2004 1647 hrs (SST)
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/southeastasia/view/80101/1/.html
Pakistan Ordnance Factories (POF) Director of Exports Khawar Nawaz said Malaysia had expressed interest in buying the weapons, and discussions are ongoing.
Mr Nawaz was speaking to Bernama news agency at the ongoing 9th Defence Services Asia 2004 (DSA 2004) exhibition in Subang on Wednesday.
"They are negotiating the delivery and terms of payment. However, the volume is not known," he said.
He disclosed that Pakistan had also offered to sell small arms, especially MP5 sub-machine guns, to Malaysia.
Before this, Malaysia had bought 25,700 high explosive anti-tank (Heat) rockets from Pakistan.
Mr Nawaz said Pakistan was already collaborating with Malaysia's SME Ordnance Sdn Bhd in the area of supplying semi-finished ammunition and raw materials for the manufacture of ammunition and hand grenades.
"We have also offered them and the Malaysian Armed Forces specific training in armament production and quality control. We are keen to expand our collaboration," he said. - CNA -
no lah... the astros is from brazil...
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fail liao loh.......and the e maths was a killer man!!Originally posted by CenturionMBT:so how, your engineering materials study already? -
Which year u in? I was also from engineering..but in NYP though, drop out thanks to maths. failed 3 times..Originally posted by |-|05|:fail liao loh.......and the e maths was a killer man!!
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lol 1st yr...but enuf abt that let's not get OCOriginally posted by Moonstriker:Which year u in? I was also from engineering..but in NYP though, drop out thanks to maths. failed 3 times.. -
is that considered a huge order ?
25700 rockets?Originally posted by 84mmrr:
Are these rocket launchers similar to ASTROS?
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Malaysia may buy rocket launchers from Pakistan
Before this, Malaysia had bought [b]25,700 high explosive anti-tank (Heat) rockets from Pakistan.
[/b] -
Northrop Grumman-Built High-Energy Laser Destroys Large-Caliber Rocket in History-Making Test
The U.S. Army's Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser (MTHEL) testbed destroyed a rocket on May 4 that's larger, faster and that flies higher than previous threats destroyed by the laser weapon demonstrator. Northrop Grumman Corporation built the demonstrator for the Army and the Israel Ministry of Defence (IMoD).