Singapore revives naval helicopter competition
-
U mean u,yrself??Originally posted by tripwire:an OX like you... has less brain then the terrorist that nearly sank the USS COLE....
-
why not u just ignore him and let the thing pass, no point arguing. the topic is going nowhere.Originally posted by zenden9:U mean u,yrself?? -
true... like the chinese says... dont waste time playing piano to the OX...Originally posted by cavsg:why not u just ignore him and let the thing pass, no point arguing. the topic is going nowhere. -
THE UCAV CAME OF age during Operation Anaconda in Afghanistan when USAF RQ-1 Predators armed with AGM-114 Hellfire missiles used them against al-Qaeda and Taliban strongholds. It was not the first time UAVs carried and deployed weapons successfully, US Navy TDR-1 unmanned aircraft attacked Japanese shipping off the Solomon Islands with 2,000lb bombs and torpedoes in 1944 and Maverick and Stubby Hobo missiles were test fired successfully from Ryan Firebee UAVs during the 1970s. But Predator operations have moved the debate on from should to when can UCAVs be acquired and deployed.
The assassination of a leading al-Qaeda operative in Yemen with a Hellfire in October 2002, showed UCAV's potential as an anti-terrorist weapon. An advanced Predator B was operated by a US Joint Task Force based at Djibouti in the Horn of Africa on behalf of the CIA that first deployed the GNAT 750, Predator's predecessor, in Bosnia in 1995. Nor was this the first time a UAV had been used to assassinate a terrorist although it was the first to use its own weapon. In November 2000, an Israeli Searcher TUAV was used to shadow Palestine militant Ibrahim Bani-Oudeh travelling in a booby-trapped car lent to him by an informant. The Searcher was used to relay the signal to trigger the car bomb.
During 2002 many US UAVs have been adapted to carry weapons. A TRW/IAI Hunter, the US Army's standard medium-altitude extended-range TUAV, successfully test-fired two Brilliant anti-tank weapons (BAT). The trials used the Northrop Grumman BAT with live warheads as the company prepared its RQ-8A Fire Scout vertical take-off and landing (VTOL) UAV to test-fire the AGM-114 Hellfire. The Fire Scout is on offer to the US Army for its future combat system (FCS) and to the US Marine Corps for a ship-borne mine-detection role. The US Navy has funded five RQ-8As to be based at NAS Fallon in 2004 to help train pilots in UAV operations and is also seeking more funding in 2004 to develop Fire Scout into the multi-mission MQ-8A.
Bell's unsuccessful competitor for the US Navy's VTOL UAV competition, the twin-engine Eagle Eye, is expected to be selected for the US Coast Guard's Deepwater contract for 69 aircraft. This requires an extensive redesign and possibly new engines. The new HV-911 Eagle Eye will be the basis for an unmanned combat armed rotorcraft (UCAR) for the US Army requirement in competition with the Fire Scout.
Another competitor for the US Army FCS to replace the Hunter is the Frontier Systems A160 Hummingbird that has begun a 1,000-hour trial programme before the Army takes over the bulk of funding in 2004. The A160 is expected to carry some form of munitions. Some of these US designs may be considered for programmes in Germany, Japan, Spain, Singapore and the UK where the MoD announced it was accelerating its Watchkeeper UAV battlefield surveillance-system programme and that a new joint-service trials unit was being set up to test prototypes. An assessment phase will reduce the four bidding teams to two.
The trials unit will evaluate the competitors' target acquisition and strike systems and their ability to operate 24 hours a day in all weathers and rapidly re-target. In late 2002, Sir Michael Boyce, the UK Chief of the Defence Staff, told the Defence Select Committee that the MoD was considering adding an armed capability to both its current Phoenix UAVs and to the Watchkeeper programme. Two of the six Phoenix systems, each of nine UAVs, are available for operational deployment at five days' notice and the other four at between 30 and 60 days' notice. None is dedicated to trials although this could change.
Another country contemplating arming its future UAVs is Singapore. Its indigenous Lalee programme for a high- altitude, long-endurance (HALE) UAV is being developed in collaboration with EADS. Although its primary tasks will be strategic surveillance and SIGINT, a weapon-carrying version is possible. EADS is marketing the Global Hawk as the Eurohawk that, with its expanding payload-carrying capability, could become a future cruise-missile carrier.
The first generation of advanced vehicles designed as stealthy UCAVs took to the air in 2002. Dassault and Saab have flown UCAV concept demonstrators, the Petit Duc in 2000 and the Swedish Highly Advanced Research Configuration (SHARC) in February 2002. Although sub-scale designs, they illustrate the type of unmanned systems at the centre of proposed network-centric warfare capabilities.
Sweden plans Net Centric Defence (NCD) to link land, sea and air commands and ultimately individual frontline soldiers using the internet. UAVs will be just one important part of NCD. They will provide real-time battlefield surveillance at the forefront of Sweden's defensive and offensive air capability alongside the JAS Gripen force that will include two-seaters in the C2 role. The US Army and the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) have a similar vision of battlefields where the UCAR and the Apache and Comanche, will control and prosecute the operation. Flying FCS demonstrators are expected by 2006.
The race between the US Air Force and Navy UCAV demonstrators was won by the Boeing X-45A UCAV-AF that flew for the first time on 22 May 2002. Designed for the suppression of enemy air defence and specialised attack roles, it was the first of two Spiral 0 X-45As to be followed by three larger Spiral 1 X-45Bs in 2005-6. These will incorporate low observable (LO) apertures and antennae, fully integrated avionics and weapons systems and provision for air-refuelling, leading to an operational A-45. The USAF has a requirement for 14 A-45s for operational evaluation by 2007-8. The X-45A used technology developed for Boeing's X-36 unmanned test vehicle and recently revealed Bird of Prey, a manned technology demonstrator that flew between 1996 and 1999. Boeing is using system commonality between the X-45 and the X-46, its proposed navy UCAV-N that is competing with Northrop Grumman's company-funded X-47A Pegasus.
The role of the LO UCAV-N will be to provide intelligence, surveillance and a strike capability on an aircraft carrier by 2015. Although the X-47A was being prepared for its first flight in mid-2002, this slipped by a year as doubts arose about funding two different vehicles competing for the same programme. After studying submarine-launched UCAV concepts with DARPA, Lockheed Martin proposed an unmanned version of its F-35 joint strike fighter that could be in service soon after the manned aircraft is operational with the US Air Force and navy. Commonality of components, avionics and weapons systems and maintenance would reduce design, development and through-life costs drastically.
This could find support in the UK, an F-35 customer that is considering a UCAV for its Watchkeeper programme, and also moving towards a mix of manned and unmanned platforms for its future offensive air system (FOAS) to replace the Tornado GR.4 in 2017. In August 2002 Defence Minister Lewis Moonie said: "As part of a continuing dialogue with US colleagues, we have discussed the X-45 vehicle but have made no formal assessment of the X-45 nor taken any decisions about developing or acquiring specific unmanned aircraft in relation to FOAS." Just a few weeks later the DPA's FOAS integrated project team awarded two concurrent nine-month studies that will lay the foundation for network-centric C41STAR architecture for the RAF's future strike force.
At the same time BAE Systems Australia began trials of the autonomous navigation and sensing experiment research (ANSER) programme to demonstrate a decentralised data fusion that may be used for future manned and UCAV operations. The technology may be incorporated in the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3 programme, thus providing further evidence that future offensive air warfare could be largely the preserve of unmanned platforms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For more information visit General Atomics, Boeing,
EADS or Northrop Grumman website.
-
As the navies of the west looks to the future... there are always some OX that cannot see beyond its padi field...
Fire Scout Gets Radar Sensor To Aide Watchkeeper Offer
In a bid to boost its chances of winning Britain's Watchkeeper unmanned aerial vehicle program, Northrop Grumman has integrated a high-resolution imaging radar on its Fire Scout UAV to demonstrate low-risk payload integration.
The integration began in March on one of the Fire Scouts, a 3,150 lb gross weight helicopter UAV. The upgraded drone was delivered last week to the U.S. Naval Air Station, Patuxent River for ground- and flight-testing to be conducted later this month. In addition to the UK program, company officials hope the effort may give the program a much-needed second wind in the U.S.
The tactical SAR gives Fire Scout an all-weather targeting capability, complementing the electro-optical/infrared sensor already installed on the unmanned helo. One of the primary objectives of the activity is to validate that the radar maintains its performance quality when installed on a rotorcraft. Moreover, the company hopes to showcase the ability to conduct simultaneous radar, EO/IR, and laser-designator operations.
The imaging and moving-target-tracking radar payload consists of General Atomics' AN/APY-8 gimbaled antenna, radar electronics, independent GPS and a Northrop Grumman interface unit that allows the sensor to be controlled, with only small modifications, using the Fire Scout's tactical datalink.
The company also recently reached another milestone with its core U.S. Navy program, delivering the second production RQ-8A Fire Scout to the service. Flight-testing of Fire Scout began in March 2002.
The Navy is trying to determine the future for the effort. Plans for a large production program were scrapped when the Navy decided it would rather pursue a Global Hawk-like high altitude endurance UAV. However, there remains lingering support for production of a ship-based tactical system, which its advocates hope will lead the service to restore production plans once the development portion of the program concludes. The Navy and Marine Corps have had a long-standing requirement for a tactical UAV to replace the aging Pioneers used in the past two U.S. military campaigns in Iraq.
Robert Wall
by 2020, you can put your good for nothing helo in a museum... -
the EAST looks to UAV....
Pac Rim: UAVs Rising in the East?
By Jim McKenna
Look for military rotorcraft procurement decisions by Asian nations to be complicated by the growing availability and utility of unmanned aerial vehicles.
Militaries throughout the region will face helicopter fleet replacement decisions in coming years, and are expected to be looking for the most bang for their bucks. If AustraliaÂ’s Air 9000 program is any indication, the trend will be toward acquisition of fewer aircraft types, with each capable of a variety of missions at reduced life-cycle costs.
That trend could be driven in part by budgets that constrain military spending even as nations face new and growing threats, including that of terrorism. For instance, the Philippines, which is battling an Al-Qaeda insurgency, last month opted to buy 20 refurbished Bell UH-1H helicopters from Singapore Technologies Aerospace. That company is expected to deliver the first three UH-1Hs next month under the $12-million agreement, which calls for the 20th to be delivered by yearÂ’s end. Considered by some the weakest military force in the Asia-Pacific Rim region, the Philippines has about 60 Hueys, but fewer than 30 are said to be in flying condition.
"With our limited resources, this is the best deal we can get," a Philippines military spokesman said. (The Philippines is also getting 30 UH-1Hs from the U.S., some of which will have to be refurbished.)
Given all those parameters, some analysts see UAVs as potentially better suited than helicopters for such missions as maritime patrol and surveillance. These new aircraft types are proving their worth in combat operations in Afghanistan and Iraq, supplementing manned systems with long-duration surveillance, intelligence and targeting capabilities.
U.S. military officials, the leaders in operational experience with UAVs stress that these aircraft are not across-the-board replacements for manned ones. But any thorough analysis of requirements and capabilities would have to identify missions that donÂ’t necessarily call for the skills and accompanying limitations of an onboard pilot.
"Asian countries have had a hard time figuring out which helicopter to buy," said John Pike, director of GlobalSecurity.Org in Arlington, Virginia. "Now they have to decide whether to buy a helicopter or a UAV—and it’s not an easy decision."
With a potential UAV market of $10.6 billion over the next decade, organizers of the Asian Aerospace 2004 air show to be held in Singapore later this month are putting a new emphasis on unmanned craft. For the first time, the Singapore air show will include special UAV exhibits from Northrop Grumman, Micropilot, Elbit, Israeli Aircraft Industries, AAI Corp. and Bell Helicopter Textron.
"As major new players in the market eye opportunities for acquisition and partnerships with established companies," Asian Aerospace 2004Â’s organizers said in a statement in advance of the show, "the UAV market seems likely to live up to the annual double-digit growth forecast, which have been made by respectable analysts."
Northrop GrummanÂ’s RQ-8A Fire Scout rotary-wing UAV, being developed with Schweizer for the U.S. Navy, is slated to go into initial production this fiscal year, with eight aircraft slated to be built. The test article is currently at a facility near NAS Patuxent River undergoing flight tests focusing on systems development and testing. This is in preparation for another round of sea trials on board the USS Denver. The first round of tests on the Denver was conducted last August.
U.S. manufacturers may have a decided advantage in the UAV market, given the PentagonÂ’s push for UAV technology. Still, the Europeans are challenging them in the UAV market, just as they are in the military helicopter market. In particular, European manufacturers are honing in on the export market in Asia. ThatÂ’s why, at Asian Aerospace 2004, the European Unmanned Vehicle Systems Association is sponsoring a one-day presentation February 23 on "UAVs: International Experience and Views of the Future."
Defense and Homeland Security Editor John R. Guardiano contributed to this column. so who wants the helo dinosaur?? -
As the world ponders over UAV... USA X-45 drops bomb and make history...
Uavworld News
UCAV demonstrator drops smart bomb
Date: 28 Apr 2004
Comments
A Boeing X-45A unmanned combat aircraft made aviation history by releasing an inert (non-explosive) Global Positioning System-guided small smart bomb and hitting a ground target recently at the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division Range at China Lake in California (USA).
“For the first time, an unmanned combat system has demonstrated that it can successfully deliver precision weapons on target,” said Boeing Integrated Defense Systems’ president and CEO Jim Albaugh.
“Unmanned systems like the X-45 are well suited for high-risk missions like the suppression of enemy air defence and precision strike. Once fully developed, these systems will provide commanders with effective and affordable solutions that compliment and support warfighters on the ground, in the air or at sea.”
During the test an operator authorised release and, when the aircraft determined it was within range, the Joint Unmanned Combat Air Systems (J-UCAS) X-45A technology demonstrator dropped the guided 250-pound weapon from its internal weapons bay at 35,000 feet and 0.67 Mach (approximately 442 mph). The aircraft autonomously performed all manoeuvres, bay door operations and weapon-away release sequences under human operator supervision.
The next major milestone for the X-45 J-UCAS programme will be the demonstration of multiple-vehicle coordinated flight. That event will take place following a series of single-vehicle checkout operations and coordinated flights between an X-45A and a manned T-33.
The X-45C, a much larger version of the A model, is being built by Boeing IDS in St. Louis, with its first flight scheduled for mid-2006. The J-UCAS X-45 programme is a US Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency/U.S. Air Force/U.S. Navy/Boeing effort to demonstrate the technical feasibility, military utility and operational value of an unmanned air combat system for the US Air Force and the US Navy. -
i really feels like flooding this thread with all the UAV news... but lets not be so black hearted...
for those interested in UAV news... go here...
http://www.uavworld.com/disc3_toc.htm
read till next week also cannot finish.. -
you just have trip the wire off to everybody........way offtopic......
-
OOOh! Tripwire,u provide very good cartoon and fantasy.Why not u go and write military novel! By the way, is X-45 similar to a naval helos? I always ask u to provide facts of a substitute of naval helos but u provide nothing similar but just some UAV info which cannot even fulfil half of its capabilities of my naval helos! It is useless of u to continue post some unrelated thread.
Why is this X-45 keep on mention by somebody? Has it do anything with a naval helos? How is it going to take off from the deck of our lafaytte frigate???? Why this somebody keep on mention unrelated topic????
I also got some photo of what a naval helos look like and it is definitely related to our naval frigate and RSN and its real ,not FANTASY!
The variant HS-7 SH-3H launching a torpedo whilst using the dipping sonar.
An Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Sea King Mk.2 of the Royal Navy
Merlin helo can be launched and recovered from a Type 23 frigate in conditions of up to Sea State 6 with 50 knot winds from any direction.
For the Egyptian requirement, the SH-2G(E) is equipped with L-3 Communications AN/AQS-18A dipping sonar and digital hover coupler
Fact is fact and can never be rebuke by some fiction crap!
I believe the reader is smart knowing presently,no UAV will subsitute
the naval helo and is impossible in near future! Wondering who is the OX??? -
Double posting
-
ok cool it, no point carrying on arguing else you want the moderators to shut this topic.
-
AS-532 will be the best candiate! From france same as frigate and plenty of spare as army operate super-puma! If come worst to worst,will buy 2 NH-90 and 2 AS-532!
-
Tripwire,
Get back to the real world, stop dreaming. The world of UAV to replace the maritime heli is still very much of future.
Face the fact, there is not a single navy that is at the moment phasing out their maritime heli for UAVs. Infact there is still maritime heli development project going on, that already prove my point.
If you wish to argue on that, that mean you are arguing with the whole world navies experts ! Yes the US navy is doing UAVs study but they are themselves are not replace their maritime helis, they are still getting replacements maritime heli and coming out ships with heli pad !
If UAV techology is so good, then why we need the frigates, we may as well armed a large number of some smaller remote control boats with anti-air and anti-ship and send them out !
Also no need to soldiers, all go room there and play remote control cars, send out lots of remote control cars armed with guns. No need BMT training, all go BRC( Basic Remote Control Training )
Who don't wish for that, but technology now is still not there ! -
why not get one AH-1W for ground support for our LSTs also..ok its off topic..nvm
-
i am in the real world... just so happened that you are living in the old world.
we must consider the potential of UAVs in 5 years time when our last FFG rolls off the shipyard.... and how our FFG gonna perform its mission against new technology and innovations for the next 20 years after that!! NOT follow some old concept blindly!!
if you think that UAVs arent ready in present times.... think again!!
even during this present time... we are using UAVs' technologies in so many areas, just to name afew below...
1. AShM (harpoon,exocet),
2. SAM (aster, mistral,rapier,I-hawk, patriot),
3. AGMs(maverick, hellfire)
4. ASW( torpedos)
5. SOW (apache,storm shadow)
6. AAW (AMRAAM, sparrow, sidewinder)
7. SSM (TLAM)
8. ATGM (SPIKE FOGM, MILAN)
ALL the above are in fact UCAVs!! their technical concept and technological base are not much different from a UAV... except they carry a warhead and was designed to destroy their assigned target!
the UAV... just happend to be an extension of that group of UCAV that is build for the purpose of surveilance instead of one way suicide mission.
and how long have all those missiles above been with us? some are even born before we are!! the isrealis IAI HARPY is the clear example of the undeniable close if not identical similarity in technology between a UAV and a STRIKE MISSILE.
so... while our NAVY looks to the future admist our strinking manpower pool (which looks set to strink even further), by applying more levarage on technology... shouldnt we at least give UAVs an equal chance to compete agains the naval helo?
i believe i have already proven beyond any doubt of the rising capability of the UAV and their relative cost efficiency....
so... why be not think out of the box? why rush into a helo buy now when our last FFG wont even be floating in the sea for another 5 years?? cant we wait a few years before we make the final choice?
even if after afew years when our FFG are ready and IF the navy still opt for a manned. helo... hopefully, newer technology would become available to our helo or perhaps in view of the competition between UAV and helo... the price tag might just drop.!
and you might never know... if a newer more advance tech might become available that would enable our FFG to nail those scorpene subs more effectively... or customised our helo electonic suits that would enable us to deal with the scorpene.... -
1 word sums it all
IF -
indeed... until then... i sincerely reccomend the navy to evaluate the potential role of UAVs on our FFGs rather then blindly throw away afew hundred millions of dollars of limited funds at a potential dinosaur now.
as advances in SOW continues to make rapid progress... its just gonna be a matter of time... before UAVs roles gets to expand by leaps and bounds...
already... our own local scalable MAV-1 stealth UCAV has indicated a potential that cannot be denied.... while our local LALEE appears similar in concept to the USA BAMS project... but more ambitious! -
Blindly throw away millions of dollars on Naval Helo??? I shall say RSN will throw away millions of dollars if they choose UAV instead of naval helo for our frigate! By the way,ST and DSTA cannot afford extensive R&D on naval UAV!(too costly).They will be venturing totally into a new playground and the trial and error will suck up their fund.
-
tripwire,
If according to you, the whole military world should just stop manufacturing helicopters and go into UAV ! But why everyone is still investing to heli and design new ones. Can't be all military expert & generals in the world are idiots and you are genius.
While you are at it, why not suggest to the Army, since UAV is as advance as you say. Let build a robot army, hey we can even recover the cost by loaning them to the next starwar movie !!! -
we are debating over the UAV vs NAVAL helo issue... your points shows a lack of understanding of the issue at hand... and is truely lacking in professionalism....Originally posted by storywolf:tripwire,
If according to you, the whole military world should just stop manufacturing helicopters and go into UAV ! But why everyone is still investing to heli and design new ones. Can't be all military expert & generals in the world are idiots and you are genius. generals are not always genius, there are idiots in leaderships as well... however, undeniably, we have seen the multitude of investment, interest and commitments shown by many of the world top military leaders in exploring and exploiting UAVs for future combat scenarios. in the states, europes and even locally, millions of dollars are being invested in R & D in UAVs, our own LALEE is reported to be the size of a boeing 737!! and able to carrying a radar up to 11meters in length! it is clear from the many examples, that many leaders believe in the future of the UAVs just as they had in missiles. secondly, with respect to your childish comment why didnt the world stop manufacturing helos if UAV is so good... the reason is quite simply becos the helo is able to perform a certain roles either not perform by other platforms or not being perform by other platforms as cost effectively... to put it another way, even though IFV, APCs and AIFV has come to this world in their own rights... we still manufacture and use jeeps! do we not? why?
While you are at it, why not suggest to the Army, since UAV is as advance as you say. Let build a robot army, hey we can even recover the cost by loaning them to the next starwar movie !!!
your childish opinion is equivalent to saying that we should NOT build FFG until we can prove that the FFG can walk on land!
every platform that was designed, was designed based on requirements... there is no such platforms that can be designed to do everything!
however, even in the army, there are interest on RAVs... if you know what that is...
already there are suggestions that we could actually Remote control our SSPH-1 SPH in the future! -
Hi Tripwire,
You are the one who lack the understanding, professionalism and in the dream world !!! Also you like to put things into people mouth !
All the while I been aruging that Singapore is right in building the Frigates and right to get maritime helicopter for them.
You on the other hand are the one who is saying singapore make big mistake should not build this type of frigate, use UAV, UAV can replace the role of helicopter totally ! send a swamp of them !!!
Don't put things into my mouth and then call me childish ! What I say was, since you are dreaming of the future may as well dream of starwars robots !!! go read the previous posting !!! When did I ever say frigate can walk on land, it is part of your childish dream not mine! Wake up !
Yep like you say even the army in interested on RAVs and suggestion on remote control ..... but research take time, even they can field it, they are still not capable enough to take over a lot of things like replace tanks, heli and others. It will take years. So are we going to do like you say, stop buy tanks, heli and others and pray the technology develop in time and right ? So what wrong will all the rest here that say, it is correct to buy the navy maritime heli ? All just feel that the technology may have advance, but not yet till it is able to replace the role and the capability of a helicopter totally, everyone just feel that there is still years to come before that happen. -
Hi Tripwire,
ok let talk about your so call previous article. X-45 UAV.
http://www.boeing.com/phantom/ucav.html - If this system demonstration program is successful, DoD expects to begin fielding UCAV weapon systems in the 2008 time frame.
Hey, look there is a "if successful" and 2008 !!! Please be reminded this is year 2004 only. Still have 4 yrs to go, so don't go off telling people, "Dump the heli and get UAVs", in 4 yrs the UAV will come in swamp. Right tell them to the enemy, ok don't attack us now, wait till 4 yrs later, we will get the UAV in swamp first , then we will swamp you with UAVs. Yep "if" they work as plan and not behind schedules. We are talking about the present ! not "if" not "2008". -
Tripwire,
Hey someone just trip over his own tripwire ! and sank his own frigate with his UAVs !!!
Tripwire 1st posting !
"hey should have dumped the helos and go for the UAVs instead..."
Tripewire last posting !
"secondly, with respect to your childish comment why didnt the world stop manufacturing helos if UAV is so good... the reason is quite simply becos the helo is able to perform a certain roles either not perform by other platforms or not being perform by other platforms as cost effectively... "
Childish? I have say before, maritime heli will be here to stay for sometime, that is a view share by generals and manufacturers. That is why to prove my point, I ask you the question, why the world did not stop manufacturing maritime heli if UAV is so good and can replace it ? And you have to give the right answer, contradicts to "Dump the helos and go for UAVs". That is what I call sinking your own ship !!!
I will let the rest judge who the childish one. At least I didn't sank my own ship.