Does SAF issue sidearm to the soldiers during actual combat?
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if there is a need to, the management will give u the training.
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I got my training. And by the way SAF don't issue P226 alone.
there are M9, P226, P7 and 1911...
Back in the '90, there was a 2 sided ex that involve both NSF and NS units.... and one of the unit which I attended the O group, staff carry pistol from Bn level up including the RSM and CSM....
And yes pistol is NOT easy to shoot to most person on the first few time. And not easy to master it but always a good piece in close quater... but contrary to basic training...
when you need to use it is likely to be using it single handed instead of using both hands... think about it.
As for the blade.... always believe in the issued parang !!! -
Not issued with P226? If that is the case, than the weapons I learnt and trained with at OETI and still see regularly without fail everyday must be of paranormal origin eh?I serve 2.5 years of crap and I'm trained as an armament specialist.Now don't go about deriding people's knowledge cuz they gave up 2.5 years of otherwise productive and fruitful life.You are so ignorant that it hurts to have you even utter the name P226.Originally posted by tvdog:Will the SAF issue sidearms during combat?
"No", at least not to the majority of ground troops.
I have served in a variety of infantry roles from Brigade S2 Int NCO, Battalion S2 Int NCO and also as infantry platoon NCO.
Even my Brigade commander, a Lieutenant-Colonel, uses the standard M16S1 during excercise. No pistol.
Very simple reason. Enemy sniper.
The sniper will shoot officers first and anyone with a sidearm will be picked out as an officer. Therefore SAF doctrine is all officers in the field shall be dressed and armed like the men.
Secondly, who says Singapore issues the P226 to SAF? The only fellow I met armed with a pistol during excercise was an arty Forward Observer - a Sikh lieutenant - who came to Brigade field HQ for briefing. He was armed with a SAF-issue Beretta M9 and a kukri (non-SAF issue, of course).
And this officer was extremely uncomfortable about carrying a pistol and had his weapon securely fastened to his holster and belt with a shoelace. He said a pistol is very easy to lose during excercise like a bayonet.
Even the sniper sergeant who came for briefing had only his Steyr sniper rifle and no sidearm.
Furthermore, a sidearm is virtually useless in battle and takes too much time to train someone to use one properly. Pilots aren't supposed to engage enemy on foot and his sidearm is only to defend himself at when his life is in danger. So the pilot won't be spending a lot of time at the range to perfect his pistol shooting skill unless on his own time because of personal interest.
I have friends in commando and they definitely don't have pistol training.
Another one mentioned that Signallers are going to be armed with the FN P90.
This is again questionable.
Why will the SAF issue an expensive, complicated and delicate weapon that fires imported ammo like the FN P90 to signallers?
We have a big stock of CAR-16 (scouts use them) and short SAR-21 can be procured cheaply locally.
So a recruit at BMT trains on the M16 or SAR21 and then relearns how to use the FN P90 when he becomes a signaller?
C'mon...
SAF ONLY issues FN P90 to SOF or maybe certain commandos for "hush puppy" role. This means to silence sentries before they can raise the alarm.
And only one or two will be issued to each team. The rest of the SOF team will still be armed with 5.56mm weapons like the short-barrel SAR21.
Why? Because the short SAR21 is more powerful than the FN P90. The P90 ammo is more powerful than the pistol-type SMG ammo like those used by MP-5 etc but is less powerful than the 5.56 on normal rifles.
This less powerful FN P90 ammo (5.7mm) makes it ideal for silencer weapons. -
And the H&K USP 0.45 ACP too.Originally posted by dlte:I got my training. And by the way SAF don't issue P226 alone.
there are M9, P226, P7 and 1911...
Back in the '90, there was a 2 sided ex that involve both NSF and NS units.... and one of the unit which I attended the O group, staff carry pistol from Bn level up including the RSM and CSM....
And yes pistol is NOT easy to shoot to most person on the first few time. And not easy to master it but always a good piece in close quater... but contrary to basic training...
when you need to use it is likely to be using it single handed instead of using both hands... think about it.
As for the blade.... always believe in the issued parang !!! -
OK OK I stand corrected.
So SAF does issue P226 besides M9, and many other pistols.
OK OK, so SAF does now issue sidearms to WO and officers. I stand corrected and apologise for being so hasty in mistaking a fact as fiction.
I've been away from SG for 7 years and it's a different SAF now. Live and learn.
Peace... -
Shoot me.
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even i had been train using P226 before...im a RP!!!Originally posted by |-|05|:my friend is a commando....and he has pistol training.......
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Originally, I meant to say that back in the days when I was serving (up till 7 years ago), no one in infantry - not even the Bde Cmd - was issued with pistols during combat exercise.
I still don't believe they do because the firm belief back then was to avoid enemy snipers picking out commanding officers by the wearing of a pistol.
If special unit dun say OK?
I never said that RP, MP, pilots, arty or armoured dun get pistols. But during combat excercise even RP and MP use rifle right or not?
And yes, I have already admitted my mistake of saying SAF dun have P226. I thought only M9. -
are u replying to my post?Originally posted by tvdog:Originally, I meant to say that back in the days when I was serving (up till 7 years ago), no one in infantry - not even the Bde Cmd - was issued with pistols during combat exercise.
I still don't believe they do because the firm belief back then was to avoid enemy snipers picking out commanding officers by the wearing of a pistol.
If special unit dun say OK?
I never said that RP, MP, pilots, arty or armoured dun get pistols. But during combat excercise even RP and MP use rifle right or not?
And yes, I have already admitted my mistake of saying SAF dun have P226. I thought only M9.
hmmm..
im puzzled..as u say..its only a combat exercise..the key word is exercise...not the actual thing...so how does u know that SAF dun issue small arms during wartime?
the officers might be too lazy to draw them out during ex...
we use rifle during combat ex...but all of the officers n some men are issue pistols during ops..
your belief is very logical ...does make sense... -
hmm.........7 years ago no pistols ar? maybe lol but my fren serving NS long ago..(he is 30 now) trained using pistols....but then he was a combat engineer so...
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Am I right to say only Officers and WOs serving in Bde HQ and above are issued pistols while those in frontline combat units, ie Bn and below, don't get them? I've never seen any pistol in my unit b4 and I dun stick around the HQ much.
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Someone here just said he was at at excercise where even the WOs are packing pistols. I wonder what kind of unit this is.Originally posted by |-|05|:hmm.........7 years ago no pistols ar? maybe lol but my fren serving NS long ago..(he is 30 now) trained using pistols....but then he was a combat engineer so...
This wasn't the case in infantry units seven years ago.
Can anyone enlighten me on what units are issued with pistols? -
I am not dreaming, i am just rebute you on your negative points of P90, I did not say the SAF will issue to signallers, but it will be a good choice.Originally posted by tvdog:Storywolf>
FN P90 to signallers? stop dreaming boy...
Go dream yourself ! -
TVdog, you don't know how to use sidearm and your totally lack of knowledge of people who does uses sidearm is totally hopeless. In war MP will not be in the front line, there are behind the line prisons which MP does well with side-arms. Those are close-quarters which make pistol more ideal in situation.Originally posted by tvdog:And sidearm during war is only your imagination.
Even MP will be using rifle during combat.
Don't show how little you know. -
The MPs WILL be deployed to the rear of the frontline troops but not as combat troops. Their responsibilities are not just limited to being prison guards.Originally posted by storywolf:TVdog, you don't know how to use sidearm and your totally lack of knowledge of people who does uses sidearm is totally hopeless. In war MP will not be in the front line, there are behind the line prisons which MP does well with side-arms. Those are close-quarters which make pistol more ideal in situation. -
Storywolf>
Wah, so worked up. OK lah, you are expert in pistols SOF etc. Happy or not?
MP are not just prison guards. MP in combat excercises do a variety of duties. They are attached to Bde HQ and would be the outriders of the Bde convoy.
When Bde field HQ is established they are responsible for setting up concertina wires and manning checkpoints which sometimes include using GPMG. The MP platoon is responsible for the security of the entire field Bde HQ and will annoyingly challenge you for paswords everywhere you go. Sidearms? In your dreams, dear chap.
I may know much less than a super elite highly-trained individual as yourself but it seems the more you open your pie hole the more it sounds like you are expounding your own ill-informed theories than real knowledge.
So take five, "soldier". -
Storywolf>
I did not say the FN P90 is crap. On the contrary it is a much better performer than any 9mm, .40 or .45 SMG with round-nosed bullets and a short range and slow speed.
The 9mm Parabellum bullet is a hundred-year old design (as is the .45) and has poor penetration performance even with the AP loadings. The sharp 5.7mm bullet of the FN P90 is reputed to pierce kevlar and is not available for sale to civilians even in the US.
You can buy the FN Fifty-seven semi-auto pistol of the same calibre as the FN P90 in the US but you cannot buy the AP ammo.
I say the FN P90 won't be available to SAF signallers as it is an expensive weapon being an import, as is its 5.7mm ammo. This weapon, if you even have a slight inkling of its internal feed system, you will realise why I say it is a delicate and complicated design.
The bullets are arranged tangent to the barrel. So when the round is travelling from the magazine into the chamber it first goes into a rotating "turntable" where it is rotated 90 degrees before fitting into the chamber and then fired.
The magazine is not spring-loaded so it is said that the rounds inside could get "jumbled-up" if the weapon is dropped. This has stopped many countries from adopting this weapon even though it has been around for many, many years.
The bullet itself is almost as big and long as the 5.56 bullet we use. I'm not sure about its weight. But its cartridege case is alot shorter and thus it is less powerful than our 5.56.
But it has good armour-piercing qualities within its effective range. Many claim that this good AP quality causes this bullet to pass clean through a body causing less damage than the 5.56 which tends to tumble upon impact causing your insides to get really messed up. I often find that these kinds of theories are only just theories. I think that if I were to shoot you, Storywolf, with a 5.7mm you'll be dead-ass Storywolf.
I may not be super soldier like you but I get money and marksmanship badge every time at the range. Sure kenna one.
I have shot pistols lah. You think it is so special meh? There are a lot of private ranges in other parts of the world that I have gone to shoot. Not mountain tortise like you never left Singapore one.
I have shot .357 magnum revolvers and semi-auto 9mm and tiny little .22. Can't say I enjoy it as much as rifles.
The .357 magnum has a round that is about 5cm long. Out of a double-action revolver still OK. Cock first then shoot still got chance of hitting something. Firing it with just a long trigger pull sure cannot kenna anything.
It kicks like a mule and is really loud! I shot blue-tipped hollow points out of it. These weapons belong to an overseas friend of mine who is a cop sergeant. He was shot 3 times with 9mm at point-blank range during a gambling dispute - one pierced the side of the neck, one passing from the left side of the chest out through the right side. Another one in the biceps.
He was armed with a .38 special snub-nose at that time in a leg-holster but he had no chance to use it. Miraculously, he recovered fully with no permanent damage. Needless to say, he no longer gambles and is probably going to church again.
So OK lah... You know best OK? I don't dispute with you you are number one numero uno super commando gun king etc. But at least when I'm proven wrong, I'm man enough to quickly apologise and learn from my mistakes. That's what I'm here for - to further my knowledge of guns. If you want to be boss, fine by me.
Peace brudder... erm bwoss... -
Tvdog,
"I think that if I were to shoot you, Storywolf, with a 5.7mm you'll be dead-ass Storywolf.
I get money and marksmanship badge every time at the range. Sure kenna one.
Not mountain tortise like you never left Singapore one."
Still need to think ! you damn kayu !!! Anyone here can shoot me dead with a 5.7mm, not superman, so nothing great about shooting me dead, everyone here also can.
Second, a lot of people in SAF also get money and marksmanship badge so good for you, you are one of lots........, a lot of others here also got money and marksmanship badge lah !
You have lots of money to fly oversea and shoot a few bloody rounds, then like to come back to call others "mountain tortise" to show off that you sit airplane before and a mouth bigger than your pocket. You run out of your own hero story so must bring out your friend bullet wounds ? Don't worry here no one got more bullets wounds than your friend, if they have they all die on the spot lah, he hero lah, he win.
Me mountain tortise got only friends in mountains that don't get themselves shoot up, so that can let friend to compare with others. My friends in mountains only got bitten by mosquitos want to compare of the number of mosquitos bites? -
Storywolf>
Peace brudder - don't shoot. -
P90?
damn complex gun. bullets actually lie on top of the gun, at 90 degrees to the axis of the gun. can't imagine how they got that one to work. -
If you search on the web you might find some data about the P90's mechanism.
There is a rotating round turntable with a slot for the cartridge to sit on during chambering.
This turntable collects the cartridge that was sitting at 90° in the mag and then rotate the cartridge 90° before the bolt rams the cartridge into the chamber and firing it.
Some other funny magazines are:
the Lewis and Degtaregyev LMGs had "pan" magazines sitting on top of the weapon. Pan magazines are like flat drum magazines only the rounds are arranged in a very different manner drum mags (eg Ultimax).
And then you have the Calico "helical" mag and also the Russian Bizon SMGs. This arrangement works only for pistol-round SMGs and the mag basically looks like a tube or a big torchlight. -
wonder why they decided to come up with that arrangement? anyways, i do have a liking for the Degtaregyev. that pan mag thingy was pretty cool, honestly. as for the Calico mags, its really innovative. not many SMGs have magazines which can hold 100 rounds.Originally posted by tvdog:If you search on the web you might find some data about the P90's mechanism.
There is a rotating round turntable with a slot for the cartridge to sit on during chambering.
This turntable collects the cartridge that was sitting at 90° in the mag and then rotate the cartridge 90° before the bolt rams the cartridge into the chamber and firing it.
Some other funny magazines are:
the Lewis and Degtaregyev LMGs had "pan" magazines sitting on top of the weapon. Pan magazines are like flat drum magazines only the rounds are arranged in a very different manner drum mags (eg Ultimax).
And then you have the Calico "helical" mag and also the Russian Bizon SMGs. This arrangement works only for pistol-round SMGs and the mag basically looks like a tube or a big torchlight. -
Heng
I believe large mag capacity is a double-edged sword.
The advantage is obvious but the disadvantage is it makes your weapon very heavy and clumsy until you start emptying the mag.
Small SMG calibre still OK but eg Ultimax with 100-round drum must be quite jia-lat to carry. I've only ever used the Ultimax with empty drums and live ammo only 30-round mag so I don't even know how heavy a fully-loaded 100-round drum feels.
I don't know from experience which is better. Do you?
Which would you rather have? I think I'll still go for bigger capacity. -
I would go for superior training in marksmanship, accurate application of short burst, eg. USMC tactics post -Vietnam.I wouldn't use a 100-round drum on a SAW in normal infantry forward fighting, i.e rapid advance and clearing operations.Instead, I feel the 30 round clip is just enough, but each trooper should have at least six magazines with him.For counter-insurgency or fortification defence, it a no brainer to use the drum magazines because most of the time, you'll be in static positions or behind cover.Movement rate is limited, so having a bigger capacity sure does help.I wouldn't know what SAF doctrine regarding this would entail as I'm totally lacking in FIBUA or FOFO training.Me..I'm just a Logistician.
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Actually, I would do the reverse.
If I have a mixture of drum and 30-round box magazines, I would use the box magazines when I'm in an entrenched and protected position whereas I would use the drum magazine for close-quarter urban or jungle fighting.
Simple reasons.
When entrenched it means I am protected to a certain degree and also the enemy could be further away. So it gives me time to change from 30-round clip to the next 30-round clip.
But in a close-quarter situation be it FIBUA, FOFO or a in a tight spot in the jungle, constantly stopping to change magazine could be very bad thing to be doing.
Yes yes, i believe in marksmanship that's a given, but marksmanship cannot always make up for the lack of firepower in a desperate situation.