arming of missiles
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have no idea why i am asking this but why is it that after an order has been given to fire a big missile, ICBMs...whatever. why is there such a long arming time after the keys have been turned to start the countdown, during which the arming process can be stopped at any moment?
i mean what's taking them so long? -
Its more for fail-safeing. For situations like in case this in case that.
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really ?Originally posted by ditzy:Its more for fail-safeing. For situations like in case this in case that.
i mean if that's the case, to hell with the countdown, because if i am facing an impending threat with requires firing of nukes or some missiles, i would fire it immediately. i mean, first i am pressured by other officials to make an executive decision within 3 secs something happens while we wait for 1hr counting down and waiting for the enemy to surrender and apologize -
Some ICBM is using liquid fuel which cannot store together with it and can be only fuel in when abt to fire because liquid fuel is unstable! Fueling takes abt 12 hours.
The solution will be using solid fuel which will also take not more than 1 hour to fire! Why 1 hr? I'm not sure,maybe to deform it to liquid! Hmmm...?? -
12hrs ?Originally posted by zenden9:Some ICBM is using liquid fuel which cannot store together with it and can be only fuel in when abt to fire because liquid fuel is unstable! Fueling takes abt 12 hours.
The solution will be using solid fuel which will also take not more than 1 hour to fire! Why 1 hr? I'm not sure,maybe to deform it to liquid! Hmmm...??
commander:i go sleep first..when u refuel finish wake me up...if i not at bed..i at cinema
officer: ........ -
Sorry wrong info, liquid is 2 hrs preparation and solid is 15mins
(2hrs still enough time for a movie
) -
hahahha...oopsOriginally posted by zenden9:Sorry wrong info, liquid is 2 hrs preparation and solid is 15mins -
On a somewhat related note, here's something you guys should read
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/russia/closecall/
An analysis by a researcher
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/russia/interviews/blair.html
Nuclear Suitcase Bombs (probable? somewhat conflicting)
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/russia/suitcase/ -
Actually dont recall any ICBM or IRBM in the US arsenal still using liquid fuel...Originally posted by zenden9:Some ICBM is using liquid fuel which cannot store together with it and can be only fuel in when abt to fire because liquid fuel is unstable! Fueling takes abt 12 hours.
The solution will be using solid fuel which will also take not more than 1 hour to fire! Why 1 hr? I'm not sure,maybe to deform it to liquid! Hmmm...??
The remaining Minuteman IIIs and Peacekeepers all use solid (the implosions of the last Minuteman II silos was in 1997)
1 hour's too long...the closer estimate would probably be minutes
http://fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/icbm/lgm-30_3.htm
The Cold War is over...but are we any safer? -
Should the President of US decides on launching, an ICBM or SLBM will be in the air by 2 mins, to a pre-determined target. The procedures...(codewords, keys) is probably to verify that the launch order is indeed from the president (and not some bugger trying to masquarade as president) as he might be in Air Force One or some secluded bunker. Well, that's to the best of my knowledge.
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Yes, but erm there wun probably be just 1..haiz..Originally posted by Jazzswing:Should the President of US decides on launching, an ICBM or SLBM will be in the air by 2 mins, to a pre-determined target. The procedures...(codewords, keys) is probably to verify that the launch order is indeed from the president (and not some bugger trying to masquarade as president) as he might be in Air Force One or some secluded bunker. Well, that's to the best of my knowledge.
The orders are the 3 feared words every single missileer/SSBN captain/alert B-52 jock would dread to hear...
"Emergency War Orders "
The E-4B serves as the National Airborne Operations Center (NAOC) in case of the destruction of ground command posts and such...
The EC-135 "Looking Glass" serves as a mobile command centre for it's nuclear arsenal should SAC Command Centre @ Offut took a direct hit... It is able to direct the US's nuclear forces in the air and for the past decades until 1998, there was always a Looking Glass airborne, 247, should a sudden nuclear attack came..
More info on the Looking Glass -
as far as i know, US boomers do not need authorization from the president or preventive action interlock (PAL) codes to fire their nukes..as they said during the cold war, if the US comes under an all out nuclear strike by the USSR to cripple the command and control networks, the retaliatory force of the US SSBNs would be useless as there would be no one to send out the PAL codes..Originally posted by Jazzswing:Should the President of US decides on launching, an ICBM or SLBM will be in the air by 2 mins, to a pre-determined target. The procedures...(codewords, keys) is probably to verify that the launch order is indeed from the president (and not some bugger trying to masquarade as president) as he might be in Air Force One or some secluded bunker. Well, that's to the best of my knowledge.
anyone knows whether this still true today? -
Hmmm, actualy never heard of Preventive action interlock before...Permissive Action Links u mean?They have had a complicated PAL systems which involve the sequential entry of "secret codes" (in order for the weapons from the BUFF to be able to detonate...)Originally posted by sgFish:as far as i know, US boomers do not need authorization from the president or preventive action interlock (PAL) codes to fire their nukes..as they said during the cold war, if the US comes under an all out nuclear strike by the USSR to cripple the command and control networks, the retaliatory force of the US SSBNs would be useless as there would be no one to send out the PAL codes..
anyone knows whether this still true today?
As posted, the nuclear arsenal of the US can be C&Ced from the Looking Glass itself should the Russians decide to take out Offutt (the US Strategic Air Command, now known as Strategic Command)...as quoting from the FAS (Federation of American Scientist)
"A mark of America's strategic excellence is its preeminent ability to command, control, and communicate with its nuclear forces. An essential element of that ability is the Airborne Command Post, also called "Looking Glass.", which was retired from service on 01 October 1998. Its highly-trained crew and staff ensured there wass[was] always an aircraft ready to direct bombers and missiles from the air should ground-based command centers become inoperable. Looking Glass guaranteed that U.S. strategic forces would act only in the precise manner dictated by the President. .........
.......The airborne launch control officer was the missile launch team leader and, along with the communications officer, operated the airborne launch control system. This system allowed Looking Glass to transmit launch codes to the intercontinental ballistic missiles in their underground silos should ground launch control centers become disabled. It qualified the aircraft as a weapon system even though Looking Glass itself cannot fire a bullet or drop a bomb."
and another FAS site states
"Like the Air Force, the Navy also developed a method for maintaining constant control of their nuclear forces. The same year that EC-135s took on the Looking Glass mission, modified Marine Corps KC-130s (re-designated EC-130Qs) took on the mission of command and control of SSBN forces. The EC-130Qs were equipped with a very low-frequency radio transmitters contained in vans loaded aboard the aircraft.. Despite force modernization and advances, both airframes displayed a high degree of reliability and remained essentially unchanged for decades..."
Hence, they seem to have a backup for the normal C&C networks and would use that should the usual network be disabled...As for the term "retaliatory force", well, the US likes to think of them as a "deterence force" though, using the "you wack me, I'll make sure I'll wack you back hard hard" mentality. Thank goddess none of these weapons have ever been knwon to be involved in an exchange.1962 was a close one... -
Well, don't forget that India and Pakistan are nuclear powers with an adversarial relationship. Israel can definitely deploy nuclear weapons. China is another worry. I'm not familiar with their launch protocols; do they have similar failsafe protocols as practised by the US and former USSR?
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yes they do...the chinese PLA is notorious for contorling everying!Originally posted by ferret69:Well, don't forget that India and Pakistan are nuclear powers with an adversarial relationship. Israel can definitely deploy nuclear weapons. China is another worry. I'm not familiar with their launch protocols; do they have similar failsafe protocols as practised by the US and former USSR? -
I've read that a USAF Titan II ICBM needs liquid chemical to be loaded just before launch. That could take up a pretty long time if it is an unstable chemical.
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Originally posted by Kaczynski:
oh..interesting..
Hmmm, actualy never heard of Preventive action interlock before...Permissive Action Links u mean?They have had a complicated PAL systems which involve the sequential entry of "secret codes" (in order for the weapons from the BUFF to be able to detonate...)
As posted, the nuclear arsenal of the US [b]can be C&Ced from the Looking Glass itself should the Russians decide to take out Offutt (the US Strategic Air Command, now known as Strategic Command)...as quoting from the FAS (Federation of American Scientist)
"A mark of America's strategic excellence is its preeminent ability to command, control, and communicate with its nuclear forces. An essential element of that ability is the Airborne Command Post, also called "Looking Glass.", which was retired from service on 01 October 1998. Its highly-trained crew and staff ensured there wass[was] always an aircraft ready to direct bombers and missiles from the air should ground-based command centers become inoperable. Looking Glass guaranteed that U.S. strategic forces would act only in the precise manner dictated by the President. .........
.......The airborne launch control officer was the missile launch team leader and, along with the communications officer, operated the airborne launch control system. This system allowed Looking Glass to transmit launch codes to the intercontinental ballistic missiles in their underground silos should ground launch control centers become disabled. It qualified the aircraft as a weapon system even though Looking Glass itself cannot fire a bullet or drop a bomb."
and another FAS site states
"Like the Air Force, the Navy also developed a method for maintaining constant control of their nuclear forces. The same year that EC-135s took on the Looking Glass mission, modified Marine Corps KC-130s (re-designated EC-130Qs) took on the mission of command and control of SSBN forces. The EC-130Qs were equipped with a very low-frequency radio transmitters contained in vans loaded aboard the aircraft.. Despite force modernization and advances, both airframes displayed a high degree of reliability and remained essentially unchanged for decades..."
Hence, they seem to have a backup for the normal C&C networks and would use that should the usual network be disabled...As for the term "retaliatory force", well, the US likes to think of them as a "deterence force" though, using the "you wack me, I'll make sure I'll wack you back hard hard" mentality. Thank goddess none of these weapons have ever been knwon to be involved in an exchange.1962 was a close one...[/b]
but did they say what happens in any case when the looking glass thingy gets shot down (anything can happen), and there is no C&C facilities left to authorise a retaliatory nuclear onslaught? -
Ya, but those where days in the past as they fade into history (Minuteman IIIs and Peacekeepers are the current missiles..)Originally posted by saintboy:I've read that a USAF Titan II ICBM needs liquid chemical to be loaded just before launch. That could take up a pretty long time if it is an unstable chemical.
We saw the last of the Titan IIs as satellite delivery vehicles, while the later developments made them into almost purely space delivery vehicles...
Yah, they are dangerous...people got killed before...There was a movie made about this some time back.. -
Well, yes I guess...Anything that can happen will happen (despite the fact that they've clocked over 281,000 accident free hours)...It's a war after all, sabotage could be possible..Originally posted by sgFish:oh..interesting..
but did they say what happens in any case when the looking glass thingy gets shot down (anything can happen), and there is no C&C facilities left to authorise a retaliatory nuclear onslaught?
Hmm, dun recall any backup...But picture this, the (missile)flight from either one of the states over the North Pole will take 30 minutes and the decision to launch would have to be very quick... -
Not so.Originally posted by sgFish:as far as i know, US boomers do not need authorization from the president or preventive action interlock (PAL) codes to fire their nukes..as they said during the cold war, if the US comes under an all out nuclear strike by the USSR to cripple the command and control networks, the retaliatory force of the US SSBNs would be useless as there would be no one to send out the PAL codes..
anyone knows whether this still true today?
Watch Crimson Tide.
I have the film tie-in, i can clarify any Qs you might have.
As far as nuclear release authority on a boomer is concerned, there is a system of checks and balances to ensure no one launches on his own.
To start the launch process, a EAM must be recieved and authenticated. Obviously the random letter sequences are some of the most closely guarded secrets in the USN.
Upon verification, the boat goes to battle station missile.
The Captain's missile key is removed from the safe in the OPCON and handed to the Captain, who uses this key to unlock the missile indicator panel
The Captain will also go to his stateroom, unlock his safe. and hands the individual missile keys to a crewman who then passes the keys to the Weapons department.
During the entire process, every procedure must be verified by the XO on the 1MC.
After the missiles are spun-up, targeting coordinates inputted, the final order is given to Weps, who unlocks the tactical firing trigger.
The missiles are then rippled off on command of the Captain.
This is a terribly condensed version. But to put it bluntly, a boomer can launch in twenty minutes from receipt of order. -
Hmm, for further clarification, you can look around HMV for Peacekeeper and Crimson Tide. Or ... WarGames, a very old movies which dealt with NORAD.Originally posted by bismarck:have no idea why i am asking this but why is it that after an order has been given to fire a big missile, ICBMs...whatever. why is there such a long arming time after the keys have been turned to start the countdown, during which the arming process can be stopped at any moment?
i mean what's taking them so long?
Peacekeeper dealt with a team of rogue US SpecOps types who took over a MX silo and threatened to launch.