New Chinese Jets Superior, Eagle Loses to Flanker
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source : http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/5/26/154053.shtml
Charles R. Smith
Wednesday, May 26, 2004
China is about to receive 24 advanced Sukhoi Su-30MK2 Flanker fighters from Russia. The new fighter jets are reported to be the naval versions of the Sukhoi Su-30MKK fighter.
The new Chinese fighters are reportedly equipped with enhanced anti-ship strike capabilities including the Kh-31 Krypton supersonic anti-ship missile.
China has already purchased 78 Su-27SK/UBK fighters and 76 Su-30MKK fighters from Russia, and is building 200 more Flanker jets under license from Sukhoi. The PLA Naval Air Corps will deploy the latest batch of Su-30MK2 fighters.
The disturbing news from Beijing adds to recent bad news for the U.S. Air Force. According to an unreleased U.S.A.F. report, the F-15 Eagle - the most advanced U.S. fighter in service - is inferior to the latest versions of the Sukhoi Su-30 Flanker.
The report covers a series of air-combat training engagements earlier this year between Indian air force Su-30MKs and F-15Cs from Elmendorf AFB, Alaska. The U.S. F-15s were equipped with the U.S. latest long-range, high-definition radar systems.
During the air combat exercises the Su-30MKs and F-15 pilots were seeing each other at the same time with their radars, but the Indian pilots were getting off the simulated first shot with their AA-10 Alamo missiles and often winning the long-range engagements.
Flanker Beats Eagle
According to a Richard Fisher, a defense analyst and noted expert on the Chinese military, the Chinese Flanker fighters can beat the U.S. top jet fighters including the F-15 Eagle.
"Since 1992 the Pentagon has known that in a close-in dogfight the Su-27 would smear the F-15. That year Russian Sukhois came to Langley AFB and showed us their stuff. What we appear to be learning from the recent exercise with India is that Russian radar, weapons and more importantly, tactics, have all reached a level in which the F-15 is on the verge of being outclassed in the long-range engagement as well," stated Fisher.
According to a recent report by Fisher for the U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission, the Chinese Flanker fighters are a real threat to Taiwan and the U.S. Fisher's report raised early alarm bells about the Chinese purchase of large number of the more advanced Flanker - the Su-30 multi-role strike fighter.
"With the purchase of the Sukhoi Su-30MKK (Mnogafunctunali Kommercial Kitayski-Multifunctional Commercial for China) the PLAAF demonstrated that it had made a clear doctrinal commitment to acquiring multi-role attack fighters capable of "joint" warfighting. The Su-30MKK is the first PLAAF attack fighter capable of delivering precision-guided munitions in all weather conditions, and to use modern air-to-air weapons like the self-guiding Vympel R-77 (AA-12 ADDER) AAM," noted Fisher's report.
"This upgrade program has the potential to rapidly increase the number of multi-role fighters in the PLAAF, conceivably adding up to 78 Su-27SK/UBKs and 200+ J-11s to the 100+ Su-30MKK/MKK2 multi role fighters. The prospect of the later was formidable enough. But the near-term prospect of nearly 400 Sukhoi fighters with ability to launch active-guided R-77s and anti-ship missiles like the Kh-31A on a single mission creates great pressure for a U.S. defensive response. Such a force poses a serious challenge to Taiwan's ability to maintain control over its own airspace as well as complicating U.S. Air Force and U.S. Navy plans to come to Taiwan's defense if needed," states Fisher's report.
New Chinese Missile Superior to U.S.
Worse still is the fact that China is now developing an air-to-air missile considered to be superior to the U.S. AIM-120 AMRAAM missile. The self-guided AMRAAM is the main long-range armament for all U.S. fighter jets.
The new Chinese Project 129 or PL-12 missile is a Sino-Russian collaboration drawn from the Russian AA-12 Adder and equipped with an indigenous Chinese high-power rocket motor. Unlike the Russian AA-12, the PL-12 will have better performance than early models of the U.S. AMRAAM missile. The PL-12 reportedly has a maximum head-on engagement range of 50 miles and a maximum speed of four times the speed of sound.
The PL-12 is now in the final stages of development, with test firings against target drones scheduled for this year. Pakistan is seen as the first export customer for the PL-12. The PL-12 has alarmed U.S. defense sources who now consider it as the primary radar-guided air-to-air missile threat against American and allied aircraft.
The new PL-12 missile, once married to the advanced Su-30 Flanker jets in the PLAAF, can dominate the skies over Taiwan and eventually Asia. The U.S. F-15 Eagle, first flown in the mid-1970s, is rapidly becoming vulnerable to these fifth generation weapons.
F-22 Politics
The U.S. Air Force answer to the new threat is the F-22 Raptor. The new stealth jet fighter is capable of dealing with both the Su-30 and the PL-12 missile because of its superior speed, agility, and its ability to hide from conventional radars such as those on the Su-30. The U.S.A.F. wants to buy up to 400 of the advanced stealth fighters over the next decade.
"China's Sukhois are somewhat different from those sold to India in that they lack the latter's new BARS phased array radar and thrust vectored engines. But that's only slight cause for comfort, as China is in the midst of upgrading its Sukhoi fleet to enable carriage of the R-77 BVR AAM and attack munitions. Most co-produced Su-27SK/J-11 fighters are so upgraded. This means that very soon the U.S. air forces in Asia could be facing 200-300 multi-role BVR AAM capable Sukhois in the PLA Air Force," stated Rick Fisher.
"This trend was apparent several years ago and the tragedy is that the Pentagon did not start sounding the alarm back then. As a consequence an important chance to bolster political support for the F/A-22 has been lost. Today there is still an unjustified reluctance to publicly link China's growing Sukhoi fleet to a now urgent need to produce the F/A- 22," noted Fisher.
The F-22 Raptor has become a political issue with the current Democrat candidate opposing the stealth fighter. Democrat presidential candidate John Kerry voted against funding the F-22 at least five times, in 1995 and 1996.
Additionally, in 1995 Kerry supported a deep cut in the F-22 Raptor by signing onto S. 151 "to reduce Federal spending by restructuring the Air Force's F-22 program to achieve initial operating capability in 2010 and a total inventory of no more than 42 aircraft in 2015."
In June 1998, John Kerry voted for the Bumpers amendment to the U.S. defense funding for 1999 to drastically cut the F-22 program. In 1998 Senator Bumpers (D. Ark.) repeatedly voiced his opposition to the F-22 and offered legislation to cut the aircraft permanently.
"We are buying all these fighters in spite of the fact that the intelligence community and everybody who knows anything about an airplane knows that there isn't a plane in the world - in France, in Russia, in China - that is even remotely comparable to our F-15 and our F-18 and there won't be, the CIA says, for 15 to 20 years. So what is the rush to judgment?" stated Bumpers in 1998.
The vote by Bumpers and Kerry failed, and the funding continued for the F-22. The words of Senator Bumpers convinced others like Senator Kerry and Senator Kennedy to consider the threat to our pilots and our national defense would not develop for 20 years.
Six years later the threat is already flying. (continue) -
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Deterrence or War
"The vicious circle of development delays, cost overruns, politically inspired number reductions and then reduced requirements are symptomatic of a crisis of leadership that will make war on the Taiwan Strait more possible, as America has lost a chance to put needed deterrent forces in place," stated Richard Fisher.
"The U.S. needed the F/A-22 in the Pacific theater five years ago, so that by today it would be reasonably integrated into our total forces. America will need far more than the 277 F/A-22s our leaders our currently willing to buy, and they are long overdue in the force. They are indeed expensive, but their cost is puny compared to the price America will pay if it either has to fight a war on the Taiwan Strait, or should it even lose that war," concluded Fisher. -
just a cynical note here...this info could be written in a biased way to further bolster the need to fund the F22...i.e. build the bogey/strawman up and then come in and say - more money please for our new super duper kill al F22 plane...
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That makes lots of sense....American politics at work.....BTW does that mean that we have to reconsider the Su-30 instead of the F-15 for our new fighter?
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Btw, Malaysia has Su-30s with AA-7s too. What does this mean for our supposed air superiority?
http://www.ips.org/asiaamerica/briefingroom/security/malaysia1.html -
SU-30 didnt make the mark in the downselect... i would assume that the RSAF has already gone through the details of the SU-30 real capability and other factors before dumping it along the way.
got this from another website.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-30mk.htm
In May 2002 it was reported that studies in a Boeing simulator complex show that the Su-30MK can defeat an F-15C “every time” by using a combination beyond visual range (BVR) attack with an AA-12, followed by a close approach and attack with an IR-guided AA-11. The Su-30 penetrates the F-15’s Doppler radar net because it can rapidly dump speed to zero relative to the F-15, then attack from below and accelerate away. Similar tactics, say the analysts, would not work against an F-22 or F-35. The maneuver also requires great pilot skill, of a level very rare outside leading Western powers. It is also possible that the test is set up to justify purchase of the F-22 and F-35 along with various new air-to-air missiles. Critics point out that the maneuver will also not work against the F-16 and F-18, since with their smaller radar signatures they are not so vulnerable to the BVR portion of the attack. -
I doubt that news! US is very good in the area of software and electronic.In close dogfight,the Su-30 may win but in BVR,the US will still have the advantage! The AIM -120 is still consider a formiable missile today.
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its always publicity...
i still remember how alot of people drool over the mig-29 fulcrum until NATO F-15 and F-16s went into serbia and knock the winds out of those fulcrum hypes..
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/downedmig29.htm
now... hardly people talk about the fulcrum or its infamous cobra movement.
in the end.. i think we just have to trust our guys in RSAF to do a thorough job in analyzing the SU-30 before dumping it in the trashcan.
but i also doubt we will ever hear the inside story including the tiny technical details over why the SU-30 failed to meet the mark. -
Couple of points. The bona-fide Cobra is done by the Flanker not the Fulcrum and the the performance of the JRV and it's MiG-29s over Serbia/Kosovo is hardly a good gauge of the abilities of the MiG-29. With the command and control advantage held by NATO, it was not even considered a fair fight by even the Americans.Originally posted by tripwire:its always publicity...
i still remember how alot of people drool over the mig-29 fulcrum until NATO F-15 and F-16s went into serbia and knock the winds out of those fulcrum hypes..
http://www.aeronautics.ru/img001/downedmig29.htm
now... hardly people talk about the fulcrum or its infamous cobra movement.
in the end.. i think we just have to trust our guys in RSAF to do a thorough job in analyzing the SU-30 before dumping it in the trashcan.
but i also doubt we will ever hear the inside story including the tiny technical details over why the SU-30 failed to meet the mark.
I think a better gauge of the MiG/Sukhoi vis-a-vis the F-15/F-16 would be such exercises, where the playing field is more level and would be a better way to evaluate type against type.
The article is absolutely right about the AMRAAM against its foreign contemporaries. -
the AIM-120 needs a major upgrade for it to remain in contention....it's range is also pretty lowOriginally posted by zenden9:I doubt that news! US is very good in the area of software and electronic.In close dogfight,the Su-30 may win but in BVR,the US will still have the advantage! The AIM -120 is still consider a formiable missile today. -
welll.... at least it shows in a real fight... its not always a fair fight.. and you cant simply out edged the RSAF just because they got some SU-30 coming...Originally posted by Viper52:Couple of points. The bona-fide Cobra is done by the Flanker not the Fulcrum and the the performance of the JRV and it's MiG-29s over Serbia/Kosovo is hardly a good gauge of the abilities of the MiG-29. With the command and control advantage held by NATO, it was not even considered a fair fight by even the Americans.
I think a better gauge of the MiG/Sukhoi vis-a-vis the F-15/F-16 would be such exercises, where the playing field is more level and would be a better way to evaluate type against type.
The article is absolutely right about the AMRAAM against its foreign contemporaries.
even IF the F-16 is inferior to the SU-30... its still possible to win. -
Putting myself in the RMAF general's shoes. I'd put my Su-30s to go after RSAF's Hawkeyes. Bring those down (assuming max 2 on patrol) with a salvo of long range AAMs (hopefully I don't hit any civilian aircraft along the way, oops...sorry Qantas 343). I'd have my F-18s (and maybe Hawks?) on a low-level strike to take out key radar installations, then have 2 or more Su-30s become mobile AWACs to direct my other aircraft for local air superiority.
Easier said than done, but that's more or less how I'd go about it.Originally posted by tripwire:welll.... at least it shows in a real fight... its not always a fair fight.. and you cant simply out edged the RSAF just because they got some SU-30 coming...
even IF the F-16 is inferior to the SU-30... its still possible to win. -
that's if u still had any planes left after the inital hitsOriginally posted by ferret69:Putting myself in the RMAF general's shoes. I'd put my Su-30s to go after RSAF's Hawkeyes. Bring those down (assuming max 2 on patrol) with a salvo of long range AAMs (hopefully I don't hit any civilian aircraft along the way, oops...sorry Qantas 343). I'd have my F-18s (and maybe Hawks?) on a low-level strike to take out key radar installations, then have 2 or more Su-30s become mobile AWACs to direct my other aircraft for local air superiority.
Easier said than done, but that's more or less how I'd go about it.
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No one said it wasn't, just a lot dicier banking on chances like that...Originally posted by tripwire:even IF the F-16 is inferior to the SU-30... its still possible to win. -
There is new version of AMRAAM, the AIM-120D refers to a projected version with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation, an expanded no-escape envelope and a 50% increase in range.Originally posted by |-|05|:the AIM-120 needs a major upgrade for it to remain in contention....it's range is also pretty low
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html
Should be more than 100km , some speculated that it is abt 140-150km range.
And it is also come with a new gel fuel for propulsion , therefore longer range. -
Wa liao, edit one, two popped out!!!
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from my sources... the SU-30MKM's NIIP N011M Bars passive electronically scanned-array radar has a search range of approx. 185km.Originally posted by ferret69:Putting myself in the RMAF general's shoes. I'd put my Su-30s to go after RSAF's Hawkeyes. Bring those down (assuming max 2 on patrol) with a salvo of long range AAMs (hopefully I don't hit any civilian aircraft along the way, oops...sorry Qantas 343). I'd have my F-18s (and maybe Hawks?) on a low-level strike to take out key radar installations, then have 2 or more Su-30s become mobile AWACs to direct my other aircraft for local air superiority.
Easier said than done, but that's more or less how I'd go about it.
compare to the E-2C's APS-138 460km search range... i think the biggest problem would be how to find the hawkeye...and close the gap ASAP.
for a start... the hawkeye would probably seen the MKM far far away and is either scrambling more falcons to the air or already in the midst of directing air intercept ops for falcons in the air.
hitting's singapore's ground based radars wouldnt be easy either... the multitudes of SAMs in MINDEF would see the 8 hornets go for a tour to heaven. -
Well let's just assume it's a surprise attack thingy (hey I'm playing devil's advocate). When you mean passive, does that mean not activating your own radar for illumination? 185 km is just a bit more than halfway to KL (330km). If the Hawkeye radar has a unique signature, it'll be pretty obvious where to find it via triangulation and hit it from various directions. I'd have another group of Su-30s to engage any other RSAF fighters vectored and coming after my shooters. I'd think they'd be easy meat if I can keep them at a safe enough distance away from my Su-30s (cross fingers and hope their ECM is not so good), just enough time to have release all my missiles at the Hawkeye(s).
I might not need to engage land-based radars. Just use my ASTROS to attack land runways and hopefully deny their use for land-based aircraft. Using expressways for launch and landing might take some (at least a half a day?) and RSAF would still need logistical support for aircraft using expressways. With Hawkeyes down, I'd have won half the air superiority battle. Now all I gotta worry about is those overseas based RSAF planes to come a-knocking from all points of the compass to take my air assets out....oooh..almost forgot, I'd have to worry about maintenance and quick turnarounds for my air assets + supply and logistics (this general now has a big migraine attack or a brain aneurysm)
I think in the end, I believe, for this armchair RMAF general, it's a half-chance of success, but a half-chance is better than none.Originally posted by tripwire:from my sources... the SU-30MKM's NIIP N011M Bars passive electronically scanned-array radar has a search range of approx. 185km.
compare to the E-2C's APS-138 460km search range... i think the biggest problem would be how to find the hawkeye...and close the gap ASAP.
for a start... the hawkeye would probably seen the MKM far far away and is either scrambling more falcons to the air or already in the midst of directing air intercept ops for falcons in the air.
hitting's singapore's ground based radars wouldnt be easy either... the multitudes of SAMs in MINDEF would see the 8 hornets go for a tour to heaven. -
See the thing is u cant surprise the E-2C since it can "see" u b4 u can see it.So i do not see how u can do much to it.....Originally posted by ferret69:Well let's just assume it's a surprise attack thingy (hey I'm playing devil's advocate). When you mean passive, does that mean not activating your own radar for illumination? 185 km is just a bit more than halfway to KL (330km). If the Hawkeye radar has a unique signature, it'll be pretty obvious where to find it via triangulation and hit it from various directions. I'd have another group of Su-30s to engage any other RSAF fighters vectored and coming after my shooters. I'd think they'd be easy meat if I can keep them at a safe enough distance away from my Su-30s (cross fingers and hope their ECM is not so good), just enough time to have release all my missiles at the Hawkeye(s).
I might not need to engage land-based radars. Just use my ASTROS to attack land runways and hopefully deny their use for land-based aircraft. Using expressways for launch and landing might take some (at least a half a day?) and RSAF would still need logistical support for aircraft using expressways. With Hawkeyes down, I'd have won half the air superiority battle. Now all I gotta worry about is those overseas based RSAF planes to come a-knocking from all points of the compass to take my air assets out....oooh..almost forgot, I'd have to worry about maintenance and quick turnarounds for my air assets + supply and logistics (this general now has a big migraine attack or a brain aneurysm)
I think in the end, I believe, for this armchair RMAF general, it's a half-chance of success, but a half-chance is better than none.
it takes around 4 hrs to prep a highway runway..... -
Yes I'm assuming the E2C can see me (that's not a doubt in my mind), now my question is whether the RSAF can hit me before I take out the vectored fighters + the AWACs, since now it is based on the reaction times and abilities of the RSAF. That's for better minds than mine to figure out. I am awaiting MINDEF and ISA to come knocking on my door to either interrogate me and/or to hire me as a scenario planner (fat chance to the latter, of course).Originally posted by |-|05|:See the thing is u cant surprise the E-2C since it can "see" u b4 u can see it.So i do not see how u can do much to it.....
it takes around 4 hrs to prep a highway runway..... -
Well,since SU-30 is claimed to be so good....what if we have a few tricks up our sleeves?If we had EMP technology,we could ground all our aircraft,military equipment and using SF,plant an remote-detonated EMP device near their air-bases and on command set them off simultaneouly.They will never know what hit them.And imagine the shock on the RMAF's faces when they see a perfectly good SU-30 takeoff and sudddenly,just lose power and slam onto the concrete runway?Ok,that is alittle off from the aircombat thingy.
Anyway,you think RSAF so stupid mehz?Leave the E2C Hawkeye to fly AWACS up there alone ah?In peacetime got 2-4 F-16s protecting it.In war,I belief mebbe up to 10 covering one.And we must not forget the fact that we have hidden assets as well.F-15 being a large aircraft will definitely be easier to spot on radar due to its larger cross-section.Besides,its a bona fide fact that F-15 is out for so long,it may be considered obselete.But one fact is that F-15s have a special throttle capability to increase the rating of the turbo jets to 15% more then the standard output,and thus is able to out-run the missile.
Btw,just to clarify,AIM-120 is longest range mehz?I thought is AIM-54 Phoneix? -
It is standard operational doctrine to ALWAYS have an escort of at least 2 fighters for High Value Assets (AWACs, tankers). I never made an assertion that the E2Cs were unescorted. My main interest in this scenario has always been this, can the RSAF negate the long range track and engagement parameters of the Su-30s such that the AWACs will not be taken out in a surprise engagement?
On a sidenote,as for EMPs, since we're talking about such exotic technology, F-16s are very much more vulnerable since the computer "flies" it. Take out the computers, you take out the plane. (Unless there's a new EMP hardened Block-XX F-16s I don't know about). Are the Su-30s exclusively fly-by-wire too?
And yes, I too thought (and still think) the Phoenix is the longest range AAM in operation right now. Unfortunately, the Phoenix is limited to the F-14 & its radar systems. It's truly a remarkable weapon with extreme engagement envelopes. Truly far ahead of its time when it was first introduced. Any new systems which are comparable?Originally posted by SpecOps87:Well,since SU-30 is claimed to be so good....what if we have a few tricks up our sleeves?If we had EMP technology,we could ground all our aircraft,military equipment and using SF,plant an remote-detonated EMP device near their air-bases and on command set them off simultaneouly.They will never know what hit them.And imagine the shock on the RMAF's faces when they see a perfectly good SU-30 takeoff and sudddenly,just lose power and slam onto the concrete runway?Ok,that is alittle off from the aircombat thingy.
Anyway,you think RSAF so stupid mehz?Leave the E2C Hawkeye to fly AWACS up there alone ah?In peacetime got 2-4 F-16s protecting it.In war,I belief mebbe up to 10 covering one.And we must not forget the fact that we have hidden assets as well.F-15 being a large aircraft will definitely be easier to spot on radar due to its larger cross-section.Besides,its a bona fide fact that F-15 is out for so long,it may be considered obselete.But one fact is that F-15s have a special throttle capability to increase the rating of the turbo jets to 15% more then the standard output,and thus is able to out-run the missile.
Btw,just to clarify,AIM-120 is longest range mehz?I thought is AIM-54 Phoneix? -
Su-30K/MK/MKI image with Indonesia Air Force
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You just lost your whole airforce !Originally posted by ferret69:Putting myself in the RMAF general's shoes. I'd put my Su-30s to go after RSAF's Hawkeyes. Bring those down (assuming max 2 on patrol) with a salvo of long range AAMs (hopefully I don't hit any civilian aircraft along the way, oops...sorry Qantas 343). I'd have my F-18s (and maybe Hawks?) on a low-level strike to take out key radar installations, then have 2 or more Su-30s become mobile AWACs to direct my other aircraft for local air superiority.
Easier said than done, but that's more or less how I'd go about it.
Hawkeye will see you coming, they have their missile defense, they also have fighter escorts. Next they are within the air defense coverage our Ground-to-air and Sea-to-Air.
Next even if you knock out 1 hawkeye and some radars, what about our other hawkeyes, backup radars and mobile radars !
Your planes is limping back low on fuel and out of ammo, with RSAF after them. You have committed your planes and pilots, and they are tired out. They land, they become sitting duck, and get hit when refuelling. Stay in the air, and you don't have the fuel or ammo to fight it out, also you will find you lost your landing runways. Great you just lost your whole airforce !
Sure sound like another Midway ! haha ! -
Bravo plan ! Just lost your whole airforce for a hawkeye and a few radars. Great exchange plan !Originally posted by ferret69:Putting myself in the RMAF general's shoes. I'd put my Su-30s to go after RSAF's Hawkeyes. Bring those down (assuming max 2 on patrol) with a salvo of long range AAMs (hopefully I don't hit any civilian aircraft along the way, oops...sorry Qantas 343). I'd have my F-18s (and maybe Hawks?) on a low-level strike to take out key radar installations, then have 2 or more Su-30s become mobile AWACs to direct my other aircraft for local air superiority.
Easier said than done, but that's more or less how I'd go about it.
The Hawkeye will see your su30s when they are on the runway. By the way hawkeye have their own missile defences, also fighters cover. They will also be inside Singapore Air defense( ground to air)and navy (sea to air) coverage. Also you got only one hawkeye only, what about the other 3 ?
So let assume your F18s hit a few radars. Well by then you lost a few planes, and your almost whole airfore limping back ! RSAF will by then will launch another hawkeye, mobile and backup radars will be up. Strike flights is just right behind your limping airforces tail. Those who land to try to re-arm and re-fuel will all be sitting duck and hit by the incoming strike as the bases is bombed. The one who are in the air, are low on ammo and fuels, also by then no runway to land. Think you just lost the whole airforce.
Read up on the Midway ! Think you just repeated history like the japanese did !