New Chinese Jets Superior, Eagle Loses to Flanker
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the AIM-54 is too big and heavy that's why not many other planes carry it....infact the only other plane i've ever seen carry it is the F111 during trials.Anyway the time of the Aim54 is over...but it's range is still the longest......150km or there aboutsOriginally posted by ferret69:It is standard operational doctrine to ALWAYS have an escort of at least 2 fighters for High Value Assets (AWACs, tankers). I never made an assertion that the E2Cs were unescorted. My main interest in this scenario has always been this, can the RSAF negate the long range track and engagement parameters of the Su-30s such that the AWACs will not be taken out in a surprise engagement?
On a sidenote,as for EMPs, since we're talking about such exotic technology, F-16s are very much more vulnerable since the computer "flies" it. Take out the computers, you take out the plane. (Unless there's a new EMP hardened Block-XX F-16s I don't know about). Are the Su-30s exclusively fly-by-wire too?
And yes, I too thought (and still think) the Phoenix is the longest range AAM in operation right now. Unfortunately, the Phoenix is limited to the F-14 & its radar systems. It's truly a remarkable weapon with extreme engagement envelopes. Truly far ahead of its time when it was first introduced. Any new systems which are comparable? -
I think the edge of RSAF would be in ECM. This sorta stuff not easily avalible off the shelf and usually have to develop locally. So in SEAD I think Singapore confirm win liao. With our adversary's radars down, our new strike fighters, orchestrated by E-2Cs within Singapore territory, will win the day. But then, many countries now developing hardened aircraft shelters, Malaysia and Singapore included. So we may have to destroy our opponent's airforce in the air rather than on the ground. Unless we buy bunker-buster bombs from the US. Or do we have them already?
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That sounds like what I believe too. RSAF would have an edge in ECM which hopefully will defeat any long-range AAMs. RMAF advantage with Su-30s would be long loiter time, mini-AWACS capability, and long range "reach out and touch someone" AAMs. Without good ECM on RSAF's part, I do believe the SU-30s have the DISTINCT advantage over any of our current fighters; even AWACS is not the all-powerful silver bullet. What use is an eye in the sky if your sheriff and deputies have a 6-round revolver when the other cowboys have Springfield rifles?
Have there been any studies done for Su-30s vs F-16s/F-18s/Rafale/Typhoon?
ECM itself is a black art of measure, countermeasure, counter-countermeasure. A small anecdote here; Lockheed Skunkwork's Ben Richards believed that the ECM package carried by the Taiwanese U-2s contributed to them being shot down by China's SA-2s. Instead of deflecting or spoofing the SA-2s, instead it seemed to attract the SA-2s like a beacon. One Taiwanese U-2 pilot seemed to survive because.....he forgot to switch his ECM on.
Not sure if we have bunker-busters. Can shaped warheads with guidance via laser or GPS of our own design defeat these HAS? What about those hangars built underground? I remember reading an air force having those (Israeli?).Originally posted by Langley:I think the edge of RSAF would be in ECM. This sorta stuff not easily avalible off the shelf and usually have to develop locally. So in SEAD I think Singapore confirm win liao. With our adversary's radars down, our new strike fighters, orchestrated by E-2Cs within Singapore territory, will win the day. But then, many countries now developing hardened aircraft shelters, Malaysia and Singapore included. So we may have to destroy our opponent's airforce in the air rather than on the ground. Unless we buy bunker-buster bombs from the US. Or do we have them already? -
Repeated history like the Japs did in Midway? I seem to be reading the wrong history books then. I always thought that was a failure in Jap signals cryptography. The USN were more or less lying in wait for the Jap carrier fleet, and even then the USN had lots of good luck coming it's way
1) The high patrolling Zeros were made to drop down from height to attack the torpedo bombers leaving the divebombers enough time to drop their eggs on the Jap flattops.
2) Caught the Japs flat-footed on deck changing the ordinance.
In the end, US industrial capacity would have won the war anyway. Midway hastened the defeat a further 6-12 months.
The question remains of course, how susceptible are we to a Pearl Harbor style (surprise) strike? I would say very much so. It's coming up with the scenarios is where the fun is
Originally posted by storywolf:Read up on the Midway ! Think you just repeated history like the japanese did ! -
Ferret69, it is not too different.Originally posted by ferret69:Repeated history like the Japs did in Midway? I seem to be reading the wrong history books then. I always thought that was a failure in Jap signals cryptography. The USN were more or less lying in wait for the Jap carrier fleet, and even then the USN had lots of good luck coming it's way
1) The high patrolling Zeros were made to drop down from height to attack the torpedo bombers leaving the divebombers enough time to drop their eggs on the Jap flattops.
2) Caught the Japs flat-footed on deck changing the ordinance.
In the end, US industrial capacity would have won the war anyway. Midway hastened the defeat a further 6-12 months.
The question remains of course, how susceptible are we to a Pearl Harbor style (surprise) strike? I would say very much so. It's coming up with the scenarios is where the fun is
1) The high patrolling Zeros were made to drop down from height to attack the torpedo bombers leaving the divebombers enough time to drop their eggs on the Jap flattops.
Well for your case, you use up almost all your SU30s and F18s on strike configuration, with some of them already shot down, by air defense coverage and they are limping back while the RSAF strike force is behind them. Sound like the same, your planes are not in any position to defend.
2) Caught the Japs flat-footed on deck changing the ordinance.
Your SU30s and F18s are so low on fuel and ammo, so they will have to land to refuel and re-arm. Are they not flat-footed like the jap when the RSAF strike force hit ? Those that are still in the air will not have the fuel or ammo to fight, also will not have any airfield left.
As we are alway aware of the lack of depth, therefore we are alway plan for us being hit first. But RSAF is build around the fact, even if you get your 1st strike, we still have enough assets to get back at you, and that response is something much more than given to us. -
Of course I won't commit all my forces at one go but also it is time to adjust mission parameters. Now I'll just stay in my own airspace and the first attack is meant to just take down AWACS (4 SU-30 shooters + 4 escorts), I still have 10 more Su-30s for a rotational deployment as mini-AWACs + long loiter BARCAP with F-18s supporting. Screw the anti-radar missions, unless I've obtained ALARM or HARM missiles or the Russian equivalent.
I'll still have ASTROS do the runway denial missions (hmm, gotta buy a few packs of cigarettes for my Army counterparts and hope they'll go along with the plan)
With all the shooting I'm doing, think I'll run out of weapons in less than a week. Maybe even in less than 2 days. Afterwhich I'll declare myself insane and apologise on RTM for the mischief that I've done, shave my head, move to Trengganu and lead a very docile kampung-by-the-beach life (was always partial to Pulau Perhentian, beautiful place)Originally posted by storywolf:Ferret69, it is not too different.
1) The high patrolling Zeros were made to drop down from height to attack the torpedo bombers leaving the divebombers enough time to drop their eggs on the Jap flattops.
Well for your case, you use up almost all your SU30s and F18s on strike configuration, with some of them already shot down, by air defense coverage and they are limping back while the RSAF strike force is behind them. Sound like the same, your planes are not in any position to defend.
2) Caught the Japs flat-footed on deck changing the ordinance.
Your SU30s and F18s are so low on fuel and ammo, so they will have to land to refuel and re-arm. Are they not flat-footed like the jap when the RSAF strike force hit ? Those that are still in the air will not have the fuel or ammo to fight, also will not have any airfield left.
As we are alway aware of the lack of depth, therefore we are alway plan for us being hit first. But RSAF is build around the fact, even if you get your 1st strike, we still have enough assets to get back at you, and that response is something much more than given to us. -
WTH?Originally posted by ferret69:ECM itself is a black art of measure, countermeasure, counter-countermeasure. A small anecdote here; Lockheed Skunkwork's Ben Richards believed that the ECM package carried by the Taiwanese U-2s contributed to them being shot down by China's SA-2s. Instead of deflecting or spoofing the SA-2s, instead it seemed to attract the SA-2s like a beacon. One Taiwanese U-2 pilot seemed to survive because.....he forgot to switch his ECM on.
taiwan U-2's?
since when??Of course I won't commit all my forces at one go but also it is time to adjust mission parameters. Now I'll just stay in my own airspace and the first attack is meant to just take down AWACS (4 SU-30 shooters + 4 escorts), I still have 10 more Su-30s for a rotational deployment as mini-AWACs + long loiter BARCAP with F-18s supporting. Screw the anti-radar missions, unless I've obtained ALARM or HARM missiles or the Russian equivalent.
10 more SU-30's?nay....you'd have 8 at best....since 1 or 2 will most likely be serviced and thus non operational.With all the shooting I'm doing, think I'll run out of weapons in less than a week. Maybe even in less than 2 days. Afterwhich I'll declare myself insane and apologise on RTM for the mischief that I've done, shave my head, move to Trengganu and lead a very docile kampung-by-the-beach life (was always partial to Pulau Perhentian, beautiful place)
PAS will pay for all your expenses no doubt...for waging war againest the infidels -
Half the bloody RSAF is in Las Vegas casinos.........the other half is all over the world..........
The Su 30s would have to fly all the way there to win the war!
If it's a surprise the Hawkeyes won't be in the air anyway??? then it depends on how thick the concrete is......
It's a non-starter from any angle you look at. -
nationalist were flying U-2's over the mainland in the 60s more than 5 were shot downOriginally posted by |-|05|:WTH?
taiwan U-2's?
since when?? -
Here's more info on RoCAF U-2s. 6 were lost operationally, of which 5 were shot downOriginally posted by |-|05|:WTH?
taiwan U-2's?
since when??
http://www.taiwanairpower.org/u2.html -
Hmmm...add 50% to 70km and it becomes 105km. I think those speculating 150km range are too optimistic.Originally posted by gary1910:There is new version of AMRAAM, the AIM-120D refers to a projected version with a two-way data link, more accurate navigation, an expanded no-escape envelope and a 50% increase in range.
http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html
Should be more than 100km , some speculated that it is abt 140-150km range.
And it is also come with a new gel fuel for propulsion , therefore longer range.
The AMRAAM's main drawback is however not addressed in the AIM-120D. The fins are still too small, thus missile agility suffers. AMRAAMs contemporaries are all much more agile than it, using various methods. Range is nothing if your target still manages to dodge. -
USAF planes attached to the taiwan airforce aint it?Originally posted by Viper52:Here's more info on RoCAF U-2s. 6 were lost operationally, of which 5 were shot down
http://www.taiwanairpower.org/u2.html -
the fins were reduced so that it cld be use on the F/A-22 mah.....wad to do?Originally posted by Viper52:Hmmm...add 50% to 70km and it becomes 105km. I think those speculating 150km range are too optimistic.
The AMRAAM's main drawback is however not addressed in the AIM-120D. The fins are still too small, thus missile agility suffers. AMRAAMs contemporaries are all much more agile than it, using various methods. Range is nothing if your target still manages to dodge. -
Yup. USAF planes, Taiwanese pilots for "plausible deniability". There are wrecks of U-2s displayed at military museums in the PRCOriginally posted by |-|05|:USAF planes attached to the taiwan airforce aint it?
I know that, and unless a larger fin is designed for a larger weapons bay. Meanwhile, the aerodynamics of foriegn BVR AAMs are stealing a march on the AMRAAM.
the fins were reduced so that it cld be use on the F/A-22 mah.....wad to do? -
err.....that british BVR missile....meteor was it? has pretty small fins too......and WTH are u doing awake so late man?!Originally posted by Viper52:I know that, and unless a larger fin is designed for a larger weapons bay. Meanwhile, the aerodynamics of foriegn BVR AAMs are stealing a march on the AMRAAM. -
The difference is in the propulsion. The lack of agility in AMRAAM at longer ranges (forget to mention this previously) is due to its loss of kinetic energy after motor burnout along with small fin area. Meteor uses a ramjet engine with longer motor burn time to sustain energy levels over longer distances, I would suspect.Originally posted by |-|05|:err.....that british BVR missile....meteor was it? has pretty small fins too
Not working tomorrow man! On course much closer to home and later start time! And YOUR excuse?
......and WTH are u doing awake so late man?!
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footballOriginally posted by Viper52:Not working tomorrow man! On course much closer to home and later start time! And YOUR excuse? 
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insomniaOriginally posted by |-|05|:football
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Hi Ferret,Originally posted by ferret69:Of course I won't commit all my forces at one go but also it is time to adjust mission parameters. Now I'll just stay in my own airspace and the first attack is meant to just take down AWACS (4 SU-30 shooters + 4 escorts), I still have 10 more Su-30s for a rotational deployment as mini-AWACs + long loiter BARCAP with F-18s supporting. Screw the anti-radar missions, unless I've obtained ALARM or HARM missiles or the Russian equivalent.
I'll still have ASTROS do the runway denial missions (hmm, gotta buy a few packs of cigarettes for my Army counterparts and hope they'll go along with the plan)
With all the shooting I'm doing, think I'll run out of weapons in less than a week. Maybe even in less than 2 days. Afterwhich I'll declare myself insane and apologise on RTM for the mischief that I've done, shave my head, move to Trengganu and lead a very docile kampung-by-the-beach life (was always partial to Pulau Perhentian, beautiful place)
You are talking about assembling 4 Su30 + 4 escort ! What about the rest ? on runway or in Air ?
You got to be kidding, 4 su30 + 4 escort ! you got to be the most outdated airforce general in the world in your tactics ! You just totally put a leash on your aircrafts and totally lost the element of surprise and send a invitation card for RSAF to let them know you are coming.
Yep the folks on hawkeye is so poor in their maths that they fail to count how many planes that is assembling in the air or on the ground ! You just give the game away by assembling such a large strike force to just go after the hawkeye. You also give RSAF to scramble the welcome party for you, while you are busy assemble everyone in the ground or air, 8 aircraft it will take forever to assemble ! What you should do is just 2 su30s, that all it need to take out the hawkeye and the escorts. Possible 2 su30s that will be 3/4 way to cover 1st flight of su30s retreat. Go after runway ? forget it, nowaday it take less than 3 hr to repair, just go for the planes ! But the problem is, 1/2 of singapore planes is oversea, so the most you can take out 1/3 with any luck. You still face someone with 2/3 of their planes, which is still a lot more than you in the end.