What if the Japanese didn't attack Pearl Harbour?
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I've been thinking about this for quite awhile. What if the Americans somehow knew about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour and prevented them from destroying the American ships. Would the Americans still have declared war on Japan? I've read from somewhere on the internet that the U.S. knew about the attack on Pearl harbour but did nothing to stop it. They needed the attack on Pearl harbour to go to war with the Japanese & get the support from the American people.
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where u read that from? I think its BS. Pearl Harbour was totally Fucked by that attack, the Americans were taken by surprise.
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the number of casualties would be fewer for japs, fewer for americans and more for the othersOriginally posted by method:I've been thinking about this for quite awhile. What if the Americans somehow knew about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour and prevented them from destroying the American ships. Would the Americans still have declared war on Japan? I've read from somewhere on the internet that the U.S. knew about the attack on Pearl harbour but did nothing to stop it. They needed the attack on Pearl harbour to go to war with the Japanese & get the support from the American people.
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Then the United States would never have came into the picture. The american public were unanimous in adopting the neutral stance. Possible outcome:
The Alliance (Britain, Free French and Russia) would still turn the tide but much more slowly.
East Asia remains under the Japanese shadow for much longer than what had been.
The Iron curtain may have extended all the way to the borders of France since the combined Western army of Britain and France do not have the penetrative power as compared to the actual western alliance force so the Russians will beat them in the "land grab".
Philipines will be the only SEA country other than Thailand that will not be occupied by the Japanese. In order invade the Philipines, the USN must be crippled, meaning an assault on PH and therefore rendering this scenario non-existent. Similarly, an attack on the Philipines may have the effect of bringing the US into the war. -
where u read that from? I think its BS. Pearl Harbour was totally Fucked by that attack, the Americans were taken by surprise.
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It was on the Discovery channel. Can't remember when, sometime ago. They under estimated the Japanese. They never expected the Imperial Navy to come so close without being spotted.
[1] Several hours before the attack, Japanese mini subs were spotted & fired upon by an American destroyer. The captain of that destroyer reported the incident but somehow it never got to Washington.
[2] Japanese warplanes were spotted on radar but were mistaken for B-17s. -
assumptions assumptions assumptions those yankees made that led to PH's successful attack.
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the US would still have entered the war, mabbe later.
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cool...
if they neber attack.... alot alot of things would have changed...
maybe there won't be such thing as WW2 liao ...
heard from my teacher that during the attack of pearl harbour.... 2 fleet of ships carrying lots fighter planes were out at that time ....so the damage is still not that terrible ..
well... its all history ...
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WW2 would still had been fought in europeOriginally posted by Transmission:cool...
if they neber attack.... alot alot of things would have changed...
maybe there won't be such thing as WW2 liao ...
heard from my teacher that during the attack of pearl harbour.... 2 fleet of ships carrying lots fighter planes were out at that time ....so the damage is still not that terrible ..
well... its all history ... -
pardon me for my ignorance...
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Originally posted by Transmission:cool...
maybe there won't be such thing as WW2 liao ... 
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For the B-17 incident, IIRC, the Jap formation was coming in on the same approx. vector as a bunch of B-17's flying in from the mainland, homing in on a radio station that was playing music all night long so the B-17's could use it to navigate over water. The radar operators did kick up the report of the Jap formation's course and speed to higher up but were told it was just the B-17's.Originally posted by method:----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was on the Discovery channel. Can't remember when, sometime ago. They under estimated the Japanese. They never expected the Imperial Navy to come so close without being spotted.
[1] Several hours before the attack, Japanese mini subs were spotted & fired upon by an American destroyer. The captain of that destroyer reported the incident but somehow it never got to Washington.
[2] Japanese warplanes were spotted on radar but were mistaken for B-17s.
What the operators failed to report was the number of planes in the formation, which numbered well over 200. The total inventory of B-17's at that point in time numbered less than 50. Murphy was working overtime that morning. -
originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer.
[1] An American destroyer was sunk by a German U-Boat in 1941/1942 (can't remember the exact date) so that would have drawn the U.S. into the war against Germany.
Then the United States would never have came into the picture. The american public were unanimous in adopting the neutral stance. Possible outcome:
The Alliance (Britain, Free French and Russia) would still turn the tide but much more slowly.
East Asia remains under the Japanese shadow for much longer than what had been.
The Iron curtain may have extended all the way to the borders of France since the combined Western army of Britain and France do not have the penetrative power as compared to the actual western alliance force so the Russians will beat them in the "land grab".
Philipines will be the only SEA country other than Thailand that will not be occupied by the Japanese. In order invade the Philipines, the USN must be crippled, meaning an assault on PH and therefore rendering this scenario non-existent. Similarly, an attack on the Philipines may have the effect of bringing the US into the war.
The Alliance would still include U.S., Great Britain, the Free French & Russia. Nothing would have changed, the tide of war against the Axis powers in Europe would have gone as planned.
[2] If the attack on Pearl Harbour was a failure for the Japanese. The Philipines would not have been attacked because it was under the American protection. The Japs would not risk another failure.
The mastermind of attack on Pearl Harbour was Admiral Yamamoto of the Japanese Imperial Navy. After the success of the attack on Pearl, he said "It seems we have awoken a sleeping giant". (or words to that effect). He was reluctant to go to war with the U.S. but he was just following orders. The Americans had more & better resources (fuel & war materiel) than the Japanese so the attack on Pearl Harbour was a short lived victory for the Japs. -
That destroyer in question was the USS Reuben James, a WWI vintage four-stacker that was on escort duty for the Lend-Lease convoys to the UK, she was sunk in Oct 1941, well before December 7 and no, her sinking didn't change anything, except for for the family members of her crew who didn't make it.Originally posted by method:[1] An American destroyer was sunk by a German U-Boat in 1941/1942 (can't remember the exact date) so that would have drawn the U.S. into the war against Germany. -
The theory that the Americans deliberately allowed PH to be attacked is not all that far-fetched. Two things to keep in mind here are:
1) FDR was in a deadlock with US congress at the time. He wanted to get the US military into the ETO, but congress would only go so far as shipping weapons and materials to the British (and having secret meetings aboard ships in Canadian waters).
2) Looking back to WW1, the US stayed out of the war until 1917, when the Lusitania was sunk by a submarine, galvanising the American public into action. Oddly enough, the Lusitania was supposed to be carrying non-war related supplies to Europe, but there is a hole in the side of the ship that is way too large to be explained by a torpedo hit. Similar to the Peral Harbour runour, there has always been a suspicion that the Lusitania's sinking was deliberate on the Americans' part. -
if not this, would be that...
somehow, America will be drawn in...somehow... -
on the contrary, many sources point out that the US had known about the attack before it happened, but instead just let it happen for the sake of an excuse to rally public opinion to join the fight in the side of the allies..that was probably the reason why it was so 'coincidental' that all the aircraft carriers based in Pearl were out on exercise at the time of the attack..and if you remember, it was mostly the american carriers that won the naval war of the pacific..Originally posted by the.raven:where u read that from? I think its BS. Pearl Harbour was totally Fucked by that attack, the Americans were taken by surprise.
however, if the americans had known about it, why weren't they more prepared for an attack? thats one of the flaws of that argument..but they said it was because they did not want to alert the japs that they knew a 'surprise' attack was coming...
just my 2 cents worth -
So what if the American already knew about the impending attack? Would they believe it? It is one thing to decipher the Japanese secret code [regarding the attack] and another thing to put up proper defense and be alert about it.
The Martin-Bellinger Report came very close to predict the Japanese attack, but did they take it seriously? -
The question, Icemoon, is not whether they took the reports seriously. The question is whether the Americans deliberately let Pearl Harbour happen.
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Did a bit of a search and came up with this website:
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html
If the documents cited in this site are genuine, it does make a pretty interesting case of how the US allowed Pearl Harbour to happen, so that they could get into WW2.
Hmm - a series of incredible intelligence failures that allowed an attack in which a couple of thousand of Americans are killed, opening the gates for an all-out US-led war. That sounds so familiar, but, damn, I can't put my finger on where I've heard something like that in recent years. -
1.It is true that the US knew abt the planned
2.It is also true that the US needed Jap atk to get into war
3.The US had to a certain extent,delibrately called the Pacific fleet back into the Harbour.
4.They did it so as to prevent the Jap atk AND declare war on Jap.
Therefore,they underestimated the Japs at Pearl Harbour caused they wanted 2 bring down the attack and declare war on japan for attacking.Looks like they got owned in the first battle -
Hard 2 accept dat the Americans wld turn 2 such a costly alternative to go 2 war wif Japan ... surely there muz be a better way ... well, if the attack didn't happen, and the Americans entered the war much later, Europe & the rest of the world wld have 2 endure more of Nazi Germany and WW2 wld hv dragged for a longer time ... more lives wld hv been lost
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60 years from now... people will say that Bush delibrately let Osama attack WTC so that he can launch a major war to setup a base in the Gulf and control the oil there.
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The US loses werent as bad as it would seem...sure 3 BB's sunk....8 more almost sunk some 10 destroyers and cruisers hit.Planes gone and men dead but honestly the BB's were all outdated,the planes too.The 3 aircraft carriers were called out for an excerise at a convient time werent they?most of the better planes werent even depolyed there yet.Overall while many lives were lost,the lost to material and stuff werent much.All in all it looked real but i think it's a ploy to get into a war
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This I beg to differ, the sinking caused a diplomatic furore back then and there was much protesting and argument but the Americans remained neutral. The US Congress voted and unanimously rejected President Roosevelt's call to declare war on Germany while Churchill had to sit back to sulk for a while longer.Originally posted by method:[1] An American destroyer was sunk by a German U-Boat in 1941/1942 (can't remember the exact date) so that would have drawn the U.S. into the war against Germany.
The Alliance would still include U.S., Great Britain, the Free French & Russia. Nothing would have changed, the tide of war against the Axis powers in Europe would have gone as planned.