4 SAF commandos charged over death of NSman
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they're all responsible.Originally posted by Gedanken:All of which are under the jurisdiction of military tribunals. This still doesn't explain why the case is being heard in civil court.
Heng, I understand that you have a personal stake in this matter, but take a good look and see how Teo and gang are patronising you so that you'll go away happy, as long as you go away.
not saying they are not. but i am wondering why no mention about something as serious as being drunk on duty.
as for why its in a civil court, this is called showmanship. they can have a court martial also and make it open as well. -
Please, let's not start a lynch mob here.
I don't see Noel Cheah's name among the charged, & people are advocating for the higher-ups? I mean, did Cheah knew what his subordinate has been doing, esp. since the excessive punishments have been supposedly happening for a while? If the A-G doesn't think there's enough evidence for to persecute him, there's likely even less so for the higher commands in the military hierarchy.
For better or worse, quite a number of persons will see - deservedly or not - their professional resumes being tainted by this tragedy. Yes, that includes Teo, even if he becomes DPM one day, because it happened under his watch. Does it matter in the long run? Who knows - do any one of you remember Tharman Shanmugaratnam is, to put it crudely, an ex-convict? - but you can't say there's no accountability either. -
Noel IS responsible too! he got off way too lightly. he was due to step down as CCO in a couple months more anyways. He's now safely in MINDEF at some cushy post.Originally posted by Moxie:Please, let's not start a lynch mob here.
I don't see Noel Cheah's name among the charged, & people are advocating for the higher-ups? I mean, did Cheah knew what his subordinate has been doing, esp. since the excessive punishments have been supposedly happening for a while? If the A-G doesn't think there's enough evidence for to persecute him, there's likely even less so for the higher commands in the military hierarchy.
For better or worse, quite a number of persons will see - deservedly or not - their professional resumes being tainted by this tragedy. Yes, that includes Teo, even if he becomes DPM one day, because it happened under his watch. Does it matter in the long run? Who knows - do any one of you remember Tharman Shanmugaratnam is, to put it crudely, an ex-convict? - but you can't say there's no accountability either.
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Moxie, my initial post in this thread includes CCO in the chain of command. I reiterate, my point is that if Bala and Pandiaraj, who did not physically commit the act, are to be prosecuted, you may as well go all the way up the line to Teo himself.Originally posted by Moxie:Please, let's not start a lynch mob here.
I don't see Noel Cheah's name among the charged, & people are advocating for the higher-ups? I mean, did Cheah knew what his subordinate has been doing, esp. since the excessive punishments have been supposedly happening for a while? If the A-G doesn't think there's enough evidence for to persecute him, there's likely even less so for the higher commands in the military hierarchy.
For better or worse, quite a number of persons will see - deservedly or not - their professional resumes being tainted by this tragedy. Yes, that includes Teo, even if he becomes DPM one day, because it happened under his watch. Does it matter in the long run? Who knows - do any one of you remember Tharman Shanmugaratnam is, to put it crudely, an ex-convict? - but you can't say there's no accountability either.
There's no denying the wrongdoing in this case. Hell, when this issue was first discussed on the forum last year, I was branded a traitor by a fellow Commando for arguing that the instructors were indeed wrong.
However, by turning this affair into a public witch hunt, Teo Chee Hean is making a bad joke out of Sgt Hu's death. His talk about transparency only shows what a political vulture he is. After all, throwing these four men to the public as scapegoats makes an excellent excuse for him. How tainted can he be if he says, "Look, I did something about it and it's there for everybody to see"?
Let's not get caught up in the spin, eh? -
can be summurised up into 3 letters. 2 Ps and an AOriginally posted by Gedanken:Moxie, my initial post in this thread includes CCO in the chain of command. I reiterate, my point is that if Bala and Pandiaraj, who did not physically commit the act, are to be prosecuted, you may as well go all the way up the line to Teo himself.
There's no denying the wrongdoing in this case. Hell, when this issue was first discussed on the forum last year, I was branded a traitor by a fellow Commando for arguing that the instructors were indeed wrong.
However, by turning this affair into a public witch hunt, Teo Chee Hean is making a bad joke out of Sgt Hu's death. His talk about transparency only shows what a political vulture he is. After all, throwing these four men to the public as scapegoats makes an excellent excuse for him. How tainted can he be if he says, "Look, I did something about it and it's there for everybody to see"?
Let's not get caught up in the spin, eh? -
I think there's a need to separate civilian & military justice.
I cannot but praise what Singapore's doing with civilian justice: independent investigation, submission of full report to MINDEF, Parliament & the victim's family, suspension of culpable soldiers & now criminal persecution.
Notice how specific the formal charges are for three of the accused? (I'll wait for court day to see how the state attorney argues against the 4th guy for "failing to stop them".) That's how the legal system works; the A-G isn't interested in pursuing any breakdown in command, or incriminating the SAF or Commando culture, if they don't directly relate to a crime caused.
The latter review, & follow-up reforms - even hierarchical accountability &/or persecution - comes under military justice, which I believe is done by DMG (local version of the American JAG). They'll be responsible for, as indirect punishments, withholding promotions or stalling the careers of signed-on regulars, even conducting formal court martials.
I can't see how Cheah (as the Commando CO) could "escape" the latter indictment.* What I wondered earlier, however, was whether the civilian side would charge him as well &, more importantly, confidently establish a convictable case. It's not as easy as it sounds - see Wiranto/East Timor or Ollie North/Iran-Contra - let alone trying to snare in any higher-up officers as well. Did anyone outside of the unit even have copies of the lesson plans/TSRs prior, for example?
* According to MINDEF's earlier news release - http://www.mindef.gov.sg/display.asp?number=1936 - they initially suspended 5 instructors ("4 officers & a senior specialist") who conducted the training, & relieved the CO as well as "2 other instructors who were responsible for supervising the training". I'll leave it to you to interpret who among the lot is now criminally charged, but I can't see how the others could hope to advance in their military careers without any detrimental fallout. -
If it's in civilian court, the police/CID should be involved in this case.
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IMO, 4 years years for these jokers is quite a joke. Apply manslaughter charges and these champions are gone farks.
Who is at fault here? It cannot be the trainee, cos he was pretty much helpless to resist. No one wants to repeat CST, so no one will wimp out halfway either. So this puts the trainee in a very vulnerable position.
The trainers wanted to simulate a drowning experience to the trainee and killed him by "Accident." Question is, is it really that important for trainees to feel what it is like to drown in order to complete this course? Is that experience gonna be useful?
Heck, I can think of a hundred and one ways to torture a prisoner for information. Pulling out of fingernails/teeth with a plier, electrical shocks etc. Why not simulate these experiences too? I mean why just drowning? Come on, we don't want these elite warriors to miss out the full package do we? Better still, strip their pants and shove things up their ass, and simulate "Rape" too. For a full experience... Death simulation is quite cool too, why not that? Oh, already done. Sorry. Now that the death simulation is complete, can we bring the 2nd sgt back now?
Just where is the line drawn on such "training?" What gives these instructors the right to play with the lives of their trainees so recklessly? I don't give half a fark whether they have gone thru such nonsense themselves. They have crossed the line, and they have killed a trainee. They should also be charged in the civil court with manslaughter.
As for the balakrishnan, he should bear twice the charge. Simple, he was aware of such practices, perhaps having been the one who practiced them. See things in black and white for a moment. Its either he approves of it, or disapproves of it. There is no neutrality. If he disapproved of such "training," he should have put a stop to it. By the fact that he idly did nothing, he approves of such "training." The charges, "Failure to stop a violation of TSR. Encouraging a violation TSR, GROSS negligence, and manslaughter."
I ever had the opportunity to come across a footage of a Russian elite paratrooper unit's hazing ceremony. The instructors would drop kick recruit in the head at any moment. All their kicks are potentially deadly, and the footage caused much uproar in Russia as well as the US, which featured it on one of their world's most violent somthing tv series.
This act of dunking trainees to the point of drowning is NOT a small matter. -
Moxie and Shotgun, to some extent I agree with what you are saying, but there is one issue that still remains unresolved:
A soldier was killed by two (or, as the court would have it, four) soldiers, through a violation of military regulations. The civil court therefore has no jurisdiction over this matter.
Why is the case being conducted in a civil court instead of being in front of a military tribunal? The only reason I can see for this is that it is not in fact any genuine attempt at achieving justice, but is instead a cynical publicity exercise to achieve Teo Chee Hean's political ends.
Moxie, Wiranto and North are inappropriate comparisons. Wiranto was tried as a war criminal (subject to violations of international, not military, law), and North was tried for obstructing an act of Congress, which falls into the jurisdiction of Congress (hence the Select Committee investigations). -
Not being a lawyer, I'll gladly defer to anyone who's better qualified to comment on this.
That said, I believe the civilian system supersedes the military system in the Singapore administration of juctice (SAF Act; Chap. 295; Part 1; 6.). &, with timely appointment of independent investigations of serious SAF incidents, it generally applies outside of the judiciary as well.
IMHO It's only logical, now that alleged felonies have been committed, that the most appriopriate resource to address them must be the civilian authorities. The perversity here isn't just down to rogue acts per se - which could've been dealt with internally - but has been deadly, even homicidal.
Here's an online list of chargeable military offenses locally (same SAF Act, as source):
http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/cgi-bin/cgi_gettoc.pl?&actno=2000-REVED-295&date=latest&method=part
Makes for a sobering read but, while I can foresee indicting the trainers & company for various misdeeds, IMHO there won't be any formal justice served for Hu Enhuai - not directly. Really, it's beyond the military provisions. You can use the latter pretext to put on trial, say, the CO & the other 3 Commandos who were also suspended (as well as anyone else culpable), but the foremost perpetrators must be dealt with by the State & not the SAF.
Temujin - of course it has to be the police; that's what they're there for! It can't be the Coronor's Court since the nature of death has been already established. Who else then: the Family Court, the Juvenile Court, the Small Claims Tribunal?
Gedanken - you've being a tad libelous in your last post *hint* but otherwise to clarify, I brought up Wiranto & Ollie North only to show how murky it is to seek redress for military transgressions outside of the military sphere. Noel Cheah can't escape responsibility for what happened at CST, but it's another thing to trial him in a court of law altogether. For better or worse, State prosecutors won't formally haul up anyone unless they're mighty confident of putting him away. -
Moxie, IÂ’m not a lawyer either, but the wording in the page you posted seems to be pretty clear cut.
First, it says, “Nothing in this Act shall affect the jurisdiction of civil courts to try a person subject to military law for any civil offence”.
Well and good. Looking at the list of offences, this case can pretty much be covered under sections 25 to 28, plus section 41. Also, if what Heng@ said is true, they can also be charged under section 33. The total penalites for these offences come up to a lot more than the four years what the civil court is able to mete out.
Therefore, there seems to be no coverage by civil law that military law does not already attend to.
You call it libel, I call it an opinion!
So far, thereÂ’s been nothing to convince me that the intent behind the way this case is being handled is anything other than what IÂ’ve described. -
I concur with only Provision 28 & 41 as applicable for the Hu Enhuai case. Could be wrong on this, but I don't think the SAF ever superseding the civilian court in a criminally-caused death either (too young to remember the pre-1980s). The Tekong recruit who broke down & shot his PC in the last decade - can anyone recall his trial?
IMHO The other military Provisions are more applicable for the near-drowning(s) - inc. victims unnamed in the present charges - & for the rogue behavior per se. I don't think they'll "stick" with the Hu Enhuai incident; these proposed charges are simply not direct enough as far as serving justice for him goes. -
Well 26 would be superceded by 28 in nthis case, but the violation of TSR could be covered by 25, while they're obviously hitting Balakrishnan with 27 anyway.
Like I said, it's all covered by military law - why make it a civil case? -
easy said then done.... to train a bunch of tough fighters you think so easy meh? .... have to consider this have to consider dat ....
outcome = bunch of Gu Niangs ....
it is'nt an anomaly that people die in Special Forces training around the world, but to make head lines out of it is
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SAF should really screen trainees properly b4 sending them for gruelling trainings at Hendon ... if want to ask for "accountability " who is the bugger in-charge of screenin? ... in any case ppl may still die .... becos why? normal ppl think cannot, commando think can ... so how to solve?
if justifiable a commando will jump from the 100th storey with or without his parachute...just give him the right reason 
Amen .... optionally we can start to train commandos with the "cannot do" attitude rather then the "can do" attitude...
for those who know Pandiaraj will know that he is a natural leader ... a man of honour ... if not then how to become SOH holder? It is unfortunate that a good man like himself got involved in all these politics.... wah just like the showz Gladiator ...
... Mi HERO 
I myself having gone through 7 log pts would also like to ask for accountabilty ... who was the champion that approved log PTs which was later scrapped by SAF ? ... fookin EL ! me back hurts ... slip disc liao ... maybe I will make head lines ...
Maybe Airborne should be banned also ... Airborne damn dangerous ... If not why VIPs wear additional ankle guards for all their jumps? ... or is the govenrment implying that it is not alrite to die but it is alrite to go home "safely" as a "broken" man? (here broken there broken) frankly speaking some of us rather die then to be "here broken there broken"
If every body wants to whine like a gu niang I also want my share if not how to be a singaporean?
reallyy ...... if i put myself in Sgt Hu's shoes I would like to be remembered as some one who has died training to fight for his country ... -
1st ting first... what Mr Teo said to cover up everyone's a*s really made me lose confidence in him, and that it's all publicity to show everyone things will be a-ok again... by what? spraying water as interrogation simulation?
I know (though not personally) most of those named in the incident, and those who know them long enuf knows they're not bad characters (not that they're bad at all).... one simply have to look at how ranger courses was ran to know why... there are some much worse. It's simply that some trainings that are to be carried out with caution (unmentioned in training guidelines), had become so common as to be thought normal, and some practices (as Heng pointed out) were undoubtly wrong, but were also thought common enough to be thought okay. That's when things can go very wrong, as happened in Sgt Hu's death. And the named will go down with it. Noel Cheah had led the way ahead for them. They'll not be self-respecting commandos if they don't admit they're wrong and are sorry. And those of whom i know are men of honour. Sh*t happens, and they should willingly - and with remorse - go down for wrongly causing another's death.
Where do we go from now for the Cdos? -
wat a bull crap..Originally posted by Fr0sty:easy said then done.... to train a bunch of tough fighters you think so easy meh? .... have to consider this have to consider dat ....
outcome = bunch of Gu Niangs ....
it is'nt an anomaly that people die in Special Forces training around the world, but to make head lines out of it is ....
SAF should really screen trainees properly b4 sending them for gruelling trainings at Hendon ... if want to ask for "accountability " who is the bugger in-charge of screenin? ... in any case ppl may still die .... becos why? normal ppl think cannot, commando think can ... so how to solve? if justifiable a commando will jump from the 100th storey with or without his parachute...just give him the right reason Amen .... optionally we can start to train commandos with the "cannot do" attitude rather then the "can do" attitude...
for those who know Pandiaraj will know that he is a natural leader ... a man of honour ... if not then how to become SOH holder? It is unfortunate that a good man like himself got involved in all these politics.... wah just like the showz Gladiator ... ... Mi HERO
I myself having gone through 7 log pts would also like to ask for accountabilty ... who was the champion that approved log PTs which was later scrapped by SAF ? ... fookin EL ! me back hurts ... slip disc liao ... maybe I will make head lines ...
Maybe Airborne should be banned also ... Airborne damn dangerous ... If not why VIPs wear additional ankle guards for all their jumps? ... or is the govenrment implying that it is not alrite to die but it is alrite to go home "safely" as a "broken" man? (here broken there broken) frankly speaking some of us rather die then to be "here broken there broken"
If every body wants to whine like a gu niang I also want my share if not how to be a singaporean?
reallyy ...... if i put myself in Sgt Hu's shoes I would like to be remembered as some one who has died training to fight for his country ...
a man of honor?
wats so honorable abt the whole incident?
seriously..this is the most crappiest crap ive ever read..
if i were in Sgt Hu's shoes..i rather die fighting..not die training..
but im not Sgt Hu's...so who are u to decide for Sgt Hu? -
Nathan, I've never served under Noel Cheah, so I can't fairly speak for him. However, to give you some idea of the kind of bovine excrement that is taking place here, this is the kind of guy that Mindef is happily hanging out to dry:
http://www.ippt.mindef.gov.sg/display.asp?number=424
http://mindef.miw.com.sg/display.asp?number=1276
So the SAF sees fit to put a guy in charge of a peacekeeping force, then turns around and paints him to the public as a brutal instructor?
Come on, Mindef, pull the other leg - it's got bells on. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
sori Ged..im not sure wat u are toking abt...but im not toking abt Noel Cheah..n if u refer to the old thread regarding this..i think the ex CCO a scape goat too..
Nathan, I've never served under Noel Cheah, so I can't fairly speak for him. However, to give you some idea of the kind of bovine excrement that is taking place here, this is the kind of guy that Mindef is happily hanging out to dry:
http://www.ippt.mindef.gov.sg/display.asp?number=424
http://mindef.miw.com.sg/display.asp?number=1276
So the SAF sees fit to put a guy in charge of a [b]peacekeeping force, then turns around and paints him to the public as a brutal instructor?
Come on, Mindef, pull the other leg - it's got bells on.[/b]for those who know Pandiaraj will know that he is a natural leader ... a man of honour ... if not then how to become SOH holder? It is unfortunate that a good man like himself got involved in all these politics.... wah just like the showz Gladiator ... ... Mi HERO
im refering to this guy Fr0sty mention..but wat izit gotta do with Noel Cheah?
n at 1st i tot the link was abt Noel Cheah..
n the link doesnt mention much too..one state that he is a Sword Of Honor reciever..
another link mention he is a PC of a Peacekeeper force..
but does it justify the death?
are we trying prove that no one is at fault here?
just because someone was in the peacekeeper corp once...does it prove anything that he was not involve with death of Sgt Hu? -
Guess there's a bit of mis-comm here...Originally posted by NathanG5:im refering to this guy Fr0sty mention..
Ged was refering to Pandiaraj when he quoted the 2 articles the 1st being he was the SOH awardee, the 2nd being he involved in the EAst Timor Peacekeeper Ops...
Help it helps -
thank u Kaczynski...i spot the mistake after going to the links..Originally posted by Kaczynski:Guess there's a bit of mis-comm here...
Ged was refering to Pandiaraj when he quoted the 2 articles the 1st being he was the SOH awardee, the 2nd being he involved in the EAst Timor Peacekeeper Ops...
Help it helps
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Think about this for a minute, Nathan. If you're sending an officer out to run a peacekeeping unit, would you pick someone who would have the good judgement to keep things running smoothly without people getting killed?Originally posted by NathanG5:just because someone was in the peacekeeper corp once...does it prove anything that he was not involve with death of Sgt Hu?
And now, after they've not only selected him for that post, but after he's very successfully completed that tour, they're saying that he instigated the incident that led to Sgt Hu's death?
Come on, Nathan - you've got to admit that something doesn't add up here. -
34-year-old Captain Pandiaraj Mayandi was accused of abetting in Hu's death by instigating the trainers, while 45-year-old Warrant Officer Balakrishnan was charged with failing to stop them.
who is the one accusing Captain Pandiaraj?
Mindef or the victim?
how did the police come up with this accuse of abetting in Sgt Hu's death?
if it come directly from Mindef mouth then we have something to doubt with,,
but wat if it come out of the suriviving victim mouth? -
Hello guys,
I have been reading passively most threads about the CDO incident ever since it happened.
I thought I like to highlight some points about LTA Pandiaraj. We happened to be in the same coy during BMT, BCT & SLC. I have seen many guys/buddies who become SCs and "Ociffers", and started to turn sadists when they are re-appointed as appointment holders as Section commanders and PCs. But I never seen Pandiaraj part of this kind of nonsense game. He was highly regarded as a gentleman that would pushed the men to the limits thru complete understanding of their mission requirements. He is ONE of the new generation CDO commanders that would not use excessive abuses and "happy hours" to achieve their aims.
A man died. The involved faced the music, we shut the "gap" up. Period. Whatever things that have been written here is not going to make it any better.
Tweekerfor those who know Pandiaraj will know that he is a natural leader ... a man of honour ... if not then how to become SOH holder? It is unfortunate that a good man like himself got involved in all these politics.... wah just like the showz Gladiator ...
... Mi HERO -
Ged i did have doubt when i read the paper abt this incident last week mentioning all the accuse..Originally posted by Gedanken:Think about this for a minute, Nathan. If you're sending an officer out to run a peacekeeping unit, would you pick someone who would have the good judgement to keep things running smoothly without people getting killed?
And now, after they've not only selected him for that post, but after he's very successfully completed that tour, they're saying that he instigated the incident that led to Sgt Hu's death?
Come on, Nathan - you've got to admit that something doesn't add up here.
read my above post...
im bad at relating it in english..but hope u can understand wat im toking abt..
i might be wrong abt Capt Pandiaraj..
but im not wrong abt Frosty post..
read his post..izit acceptable?
he hinted openly that no one at fault...
even though he only mention Pandiaraj name n hail him as a hero..
does a single man good name means the others are innocent? -
Hey Tweeker, welcome to the forum! I think we may know each other - PM me!Originally posted by Tweeker:Hello guys,
I have been reading passively most threads about the CDO incident ever since it happened.
I thought I like to highlight some points about LTA Pandiaraj. We happened to be in the same coy during BMT, BCT & SLC. I have seen many guys/buddies who become SCs and "Ociffers", and started to turn sadists when they are re-appointed as appointment holders as Section commanders and PCs. But I never seen Pandiaraj part of this kind of nonsense game. He was highly regarded as a gentleman that would pushed the men to the limits thru complete understanding of their mission requirements. He is ONE of the new generation CDO commanders that would not use excessive abuses and "happy hours" to achieve their aims.
A man died. The involved faced the music, we shut the "gap" up. Period. Whatever things that have been written here is not going to make it any better.
Tweeker
Anyway, I know Pandiaraj as well, and I wholeheartedly agree. He's definitely not the sadist sort - why else would he have been chosen to lead the peacekeeping force?
It may be the case that everything we write here is inconsequential. However, being new to the forum, you may not know that it is because of this exact forum that the case has blown out into its current proportions. One of the forumers is a friend of the late Sgt Hu, and he posted a thread about Hu's death. The Straits Times picked up on the story, and the rest is history.
Even discounting that bit of trivia, being a forum, this is a place where we can share our opinions about issues such as this and hopefully develop a better understanding of such issues. God knows we're not allowed to stand on a soap box and do it in these parts.