4 SAF commandos charged over death of NSman
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Yeah, I think I can see what you mean and, no, I don't think that no one is at fault. However, in this case, they're going after people whom I don't think are at fault here.Originally posted by NathanG5:Ged i did have doubt when i read the paper abt this incident last week mentioning all the accuse..
read my above post...
im bad at relating it in english..but hope u can understand wat im toking abt..
i might be wrong abt Capt Pandiaraj..
but im not wrong abt Frosty post..
read his post..izit acceptable?
he hinted openly that no one at fault...
even though he only mention Pandiaraj name n hail him as a hero..
does a single man good name means the others are innocent? -
this is what i get out of Fr0sty post on his intention.
[quote]Originally posted by Fr0sty:
If every body wants to whine like a gu niang I also want my share if not how to be a singaporean?
i guess it's easy to see what's wrong here
agree with tweeker that we should move on from laying the blame. wat's done is done, no point making it worse... hopefully cdos in charge now can set things right, without compromising their training rigour.
Mr Teo's publicity stunt should be the subject of a different topic.
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I'll have to disagree with that, psykor. The case is pending, so it's not done yet. Pandiaraj and Bala have been railroaded here, and the way I see it, the righteous outcome for the two of them is not so much an acquittal but a dismissal of the case.Originally posted by psykror7:wat's done is done, no point making it worse -
Pandiaraj was my SR Pl ex-PC, and my seniors had undying support of his character as their leader. Unlike the PC who took over him which basically is just like Mr Teo - ironclad a*s.Originally posted by Tweeker:Hello guys,
I have been reading passively most threads about the CDO incident ever since it happened.
I thought I like to highlight some points about LTA Pandiaraj. We happened to be in the same coy during BMT, BCT & SLC. I have seen many guys/buddies who become SCs and "Ociffers", and started to turn sadists when they are re-appointed as appointment holders as Section commanders and PCs. But I never seen Pandiaraj part of this kind of nonsense game. He was highly regarded as a gentleman that would pushed the men to the limits thru complete understanding of their mission requirements. He is ONE of the new generation CDO commanders that would not use excessive abuses and "happy hours" to achieve their aims.
A man died. The involved faced the music, we shut the "gap" up. Period. Whatever things that have been written here is not going to make it any better.
Tweeker -
Errr, what's SR Pl?
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Errr, what's SR Pl?
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
i concur Pandiaraj and Bala have been railroaded, and IMHO they're not the only ones.
I'll have to disagree with that, psykor. The case is pending, so it's not done yet. Pandiaraj and Bala have been railroaded here, and the way I see it, the righteous outcome for the two of them is not so much an acquittal but a [b]dismissal of the case.[/b]
somehow, with Mr Teo in such control, i have poor hopes for Pandiaraj and Bala standing much of a chance, however much i hope they'll not be charged. Just like what my ex-PC (after Pandiaraj) would do... sacrifice the expendeble to settle the dust. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
i concur Pandiaraj and Bala have been railroaded, and IMHO they're not the only ones.
I'll have to disagree with that, psykor. The case is pending, so it's not done yet. Pandiaraj and Bala have been railroaded here, and the way I see it, the righteous outcome for the two of them is not so much an acquittal but a [b]dismissal of the case.[/b]
somehow, with Mr Teo in such control, i have poor hopes for Pandiaraj and Bala standing much of a chance, however much i hope they'll not be charged. Just like what my ex-PC (after Pandiaraj) would do... sacrifice the expendeble to settle the dust. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
i concur Pandiaraj and Bala have been railroaded, and IMHO they're not the only ones.
I'll have to disagree with that, psykor. The case is pending, so it's not done yet. Pandiaraj and Bala have been railroaded here, and the way I see it, the righteous outcome for the two of them is not so much an acquittal but a [b]dismissal of the case.[/b]
somehow, with Mr Teo in such control, i have poor hopes for Pandiaraj and Bala standing much of a chance, however much i hope they'll not be charged. Just like what my ex-PC (after Pandiaraj) would do... sacrifice the expendeble to settle the dust. -
paisehOriginally posted by Gedanken:Errr, what's SR Pl? 
someting wrong with my browser, triple post.
SR = Strike Reconnaisance Team. Equivalent of a scout platoon, but under HQ. Does not have the luxury of bikes like in infantry... everything on foot with our alice packs on our backs. Not as heavy as lurpie's though, but close enough. -
Ah, must have been a new development since I left. In my day it was just LRRP and Strike. I was in a LRRP company.
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Lrrp n Strike hasn't changed. My parent Coy was Lrrp, but i joined SR Platoon after turning ops... but was Lrrp-trained. Ex-PC made sure everyone in the platoon knew everyting, so those who's parent coy was Lrrp had to go thru course, even though we didn't have to. But boy am i glad to be back with my parent coy.Originally posted by Gedanken:Ah, must have been a new development since I left. In my day it was just LRRP and Strike. I was in a LRRP company.
SR Platoon is a HQ Coy Platoon. -
this is not the 1st day we know our govt. they have no qulams about sacrificing innocent ppl if it means they can look better. Witchhunt anyone?
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Here's the context again - I quote from one of the posted news article (highlights are mine):
"According to the charges:
Pandiaraj, supervising officer of the Combat Survival Training Course and the Officer Commanding of the Commando Training Wing of the School of Commando, ordered the drill.
He told the instructors to hold the trainees' heads under water four times, for up to 20 seconds each time.
Ng and Divanandhari held the trainees' heads under water. They repeatedly held 2nd Sgt Hu's head in a tub of water, for up to 20 seconds each time, 'digging his nose' to keep him from holding his breath, according to court documents.
They stopped him from surfacing to breathe, causing him to 'suffer death by asphyxia and near drowning'.
They are accused of doing the same to Capt Ho, causing him to suffer 'near drowning with acute respiratory distress syndrome'.
Balakrishnan, the course commander, could have stopped it, but he did not."
Screw their "good" characters; I hope they get their comeuppence if the charges are true. -
the blood on their hands will scream for justice when these 4 idiots die.
i know of another case, where this arse officer, screamed vulgarities at a recruit's mother. the recruit AWOL la. maybe he got into trouble becuz of that.
but he is one b@stard wan la. pms whole day -
Originally posted by Moxie:
Moxie, you're putting the wrong sections into bold here. Let me show you where the right words are:
Here's the context again - I quote from one of the posted news article (highlights are mine):
"According to the charges:
Pandiaraj, supervising officer of the Combat Survival Training Course and the Officer Commanding of the Commando Training Wing of the School of Commando, ordered the drill.
He told the instructors to hold the trainees' heads under water four times, for up to 20 seconds each time.
Ng and Divanandhari held the trainees' heads under water. They repeatedly held 2nd Sgt Hu's head in a tub of water, for up to 20 seconds each time, 'digging his nose' to keep him from holding his breath, according to court documents.
They stopped him from surfacing to breathe, causing him to 'suffer death by asphyxia and near drowning'.
They are accused of doing the same to Capt Ho, causing him to suffer 'near drowning with acute respiratory distress syndrome'.
Balakrishnan, the course commander, could have stopped it, but he did not."
Screw their "good" characters; I hope they get their comeuppence if the charges are true."According to the charges:
Whose perspective did that passage report? I think the preface of "According to the charges" makes that pretty clear.
Pandiaraj, supervising officer of the Combat Survival Training Course and the Officer Commanding of the Commando Training Wing of the School of Commando, ordered the drill.
He told the instructors to hold the trainees' heads under water four times, for up to 20 seconds each time.
Ng and Divanandhari held the trainees' heads under water. They repeatedly held 2nd Sgt Hu's head in a tub of water, for up to 20 seconds each time, 'digging his nose' to keep him from holding his breath, according to court documents.
They stopped him from surfacing to breathe, causing him to 'suffer death by asphyxia and near drowning'.
They are accused of doing the same to Capt Ho, causing him to suffer 'near drowning with acute respiratory distress syndrome'.
Balakrishnan, the course commander, could have stopped it, but he did not."
Screw their "good" characters; I hope they get their comeuppence if the charges are true.
Gee, I wonder if those presenting those charges are interested in painting the men as innocent, or guilty?
And if they're trying to present these as guilty men, would they be trying to make things look as bad as possible? Ooh, perish the thought!
I'm assuming your caveat "if the charges are true" indicates that you are already aware that the tripe that you quoted is slanted against the men being charged. Yet, your closing indicates that the prosecution's already got you sucked in, if you're willing to "screw the good characters" and ignore the context that truly shows how trumped-up these charges are. Thank god we don't have a jury system here - it would turn out to be the lynch mob that you claim you don't want to start.
Moxie, like I said before, don't go getting caught up in the powers-that-be's spin. Learn to read between the lines - that's how this town operates. -
Originally posted by Gedanken:Ah, must have been a new development since I left. In my day it was just LRRP and Strike. I was in a LRRP company.
Hey hey, finally someone from SR is in hereOriginally posted by psykror7:Lrrp n Strike hasn't changed. My parent Coy was Lrrp, but i joined SR Platoon after turning ops... but was Lrrp-trained. Ex-PC made sure everyone in the platoon knew everyting, so those who's parent coy was Lrrp had to go thru course, even though we didn't have to. But boy am i glad to be back with my parent coy.
SR Platoon is a HQ Coy Platoon. 
correct me if I am wrong, you guys are the one doing all the AIMING yah 
coooool.
X2 It is just another POLITICIAN PROPAGANDA. 'He' is showing all that he is doing his work.
Yo! Gedanken, those not been there will never understand what you are trying to tell, let them be. They will meet something like this in their "own" world one day.
Cheers to those who had came, who perish, who overcome and had go on. -
mmm...Strike Reconnaisance Team.Originally posted by psykror7:paiseh someting wrong with my browser, triple post.
SR = Strike Reconnaisance Team. Equivalent of a scout platoon, but under HQ. Does not have the luxury of bikes like in infantry... everything on foot with our alice packs on our backs. Not as heavy as lurpie's though, but close enough.
how abt the CRT? still have? or has it developed into this SR PL?
i was in CRT during my active days. was part of the company hq.
buy when comes to Bn ex, the CRTs from the 3 coy formed the HQ Recon Team which comes under S2. -
Actually Josh... i oso dunno what AIMING u tokin aboutOriginally posted by Joshua1975:Hey hey, finally someone from SR is in here correct me if I am wrong, you guys are the one doing all the AIMING yah coooool. , if it's to do with air strikes... nope. Heard abt the air strike thingy before i started my voc training, den no news liao. But seriously, i think any scout or lurpie platoon can be easily trained to fulfill that role. Basically we do any Sai Gang our PC wants us to do la - multi-role... very easy to kana wierd arrow jobs!!! 
CRT is still there, but belongs to coy line. SRT starts where CRT job end... all the way up to enemy lines. Dual job of both infantry scout and BRC. Can get real stretched cos got only so many men to do things, not to mention kana chased by enemies like clowns! Sh*t job, less than 24 hours total in camp for a 6-7 day exercise, but damn interesting and funOriginally posted by lion02:mmm...Strike Reconnaisance Team.
how abt the CRT? still have? or has it developed into this SR PL?
i was in CRT during my active days. was part of the company hq.
buy when comes to Bn ex, the CRTs from the 3 coy formed the HQ Recon Team which comes under S2.
... at least we know where we walk in the dark and won't twist ankles like the coy fighters we bring in! 
And ya... we under S2 during ops, but other days... S4.
motto... "catch us and get 7 days off....." -
SRT now seperate platoon under Bn HQ... each time new coy turns ops, they send some for selection, of which those who go thru will stay in SRT for rest of NSF time.
But as always, many coys send "unwanted" men to SRT... not really that bad la, since i didn't get a chance to gel with coy after being arrowed (with afew others) to spend 3 months with ops coy to fight ATEC as xtra men - dey no enuf fighters... many disrupt
So since only used for Bn ex, other times kana wierd arrows lor, like some of us go Brunei twice!! Climb Biang again!!!
But dat's over liao... now lurpie!!! too many SR in strike NSmen coy i think... -
X3 It is just another POLITICIAN PROPAGANDA. 'He' is showing all that he is doing his work. 'He' is still showing it to all today
Yup the air thing, (me try not to be too technical here, haha once had a pen fight for been too technical with one guy here) one of my pal was in it. Same no news later part, he was there after 1st in-camp and went for the course. Most likely the equipment too heavy for all to take, now looking for other type i think. dun know why ppl from top like to buy 'rubbish'Originally posted by psykror7:Actually Josh... i oso dunno what AIMING u tokin about , if it's to do with air strikes... nope. Heard abt the air strike thingy before i started my voc training, den no news liao. But seriously, i think any scout or lurpie platoon can be easily trained to fulfill that role. Basically we do any Sai Gang our PC wants us to do la - multi-role... very easy to kana wierd arrow jobs!!! really we had lots of useless equipment and weapon with us 
sorry for getting out of the topic -
Whose perspective did that passage report? I think the preface of "According to the charges" makes that pretty clear.
What a bunch of nonsense. Now we're into "trumped-up charges" - as if it didn't take place, or someone else ordered/executed the act? I thought some of the inane martyring within this thread was hypocritical enough, but the conspirational intriguers - the ones who're willing to twist the crime to befit their personal agendas (why?) while overlooking the wickedness of the atrocity - I mean, that's the lowest of the low. Truly sick.
Gee, I wonder if those presenting those charges are interested in painting the men as innocent, or guilty?
And if they're trying to present these as guilty men, would they be trying to make things look as bad as possible? Ooh, perish the thought!
I'm assuming your caveat "if the charges are true" indicates that you are already aware that the tripe that you quoted is slanted against the men being charged. Yet, your closing indicates that the prosecution's already got you sucked in, if you're willing to "screw the good characters" and ignore the context that truly shows how trumped-up these charges are. Thank god we don't have a jury system here - it would turn out to be the lynch mob that you claim you don't want to start.
Moxie, like I said before, don't go getting caught up in the powers-that-be's spin. Learn to read between the lines - that's how this town operates.
Done with the topic. -
Nonsense?
We may not have the American judicial system here, but the presumption of innocence still applies. However, while you're frothing at the mouth and lighting your torches for the lynch mob (who's the hypocrite now, Mister Let's-not-start-a-lynch-mob?), you seem to have forgotten this.
You're obviously not too bright if you're going to take "the charges" as holy writ even before the case has been heard. Taking on the presumption of innocence, those charges ARE trumped-up until inarguably proven otherwise. On top of all of this, there is still no clear case for taking this to a civilian court, since the incident is covered under the military provisions. But then again, you've just forgotten about that niggly bit, haven't you? How convenient. Your hypocrisy is growing by the minute.
Just to further highlight your lack of intellectual and memory capacity, you also seem to have conveniently forgotten that while the practices that led to Sgt Hu's death have been going on for a while now, Pandiaraj could not have created it, since he had only taken over less than two months prior to the incident. If you think that the dunking practice originated from him, you're the one talking nonsense.
I raised the question of why this case was being heard in the civilian courts and not in the military courts - is that not a legitimate question, seeing how we have already reviewed the military provisions and found no good cause? Now you allege that I have some mysterious and baseless personal agenda, and you call ME the conspiracy theorist? Be brave and take your medication, will you?
"Wickedness of this atrocity"? What are you now, the conscience fairy? I haven't seen any indication about the intent to kill Sgt Hu, have you? If not, what "wickedness" are you bleating about? Methinks you've run out of logical ammunition, and you're just trying to jerk emotional strings here. Oh boo hoo hoo, you poor fragile sensitive soul.
On top of that, we've heard here from men who have served with and under Pandiaraj, and speaking from their personal experience (which you lack), they have attested to his character. From your piddly little ivory tower, you blithely write these men's life experiences off as inane martyrdom. You can't get any more sickeningly low than that. Then again, seeing the tripe you've come up with so far, maybe you can.
It's just as well you leave this topic. It seems that, being the typical Singaporean breed of sheep you are (I never thought I'd ever see a rabid sheep, but there you go, folks), your mind is not big enough to accomodate anything more than what is spoon-fed to you in the papers. -
You're obviously not too bright if you're going to take "the charges" as holy writ even before the case has been heard.
Agree. So let's wait for the Defense to present their case.
On top of all of this, there is still no clear case for taking this to a civilian court, since the incident is covered under the military provisions.
They want to give both sides a fair trial. Honestly speaking, how much chances do Pandiaraj and company have if the case is heard in a military court? We have no JAG and if the prosecution really came out with trumped up charges, Pandiaraj and company will be sentenced for their "crime". In other words, to use a chinese saying, they will si3 de bu4 ming2 bu4 bai2.
... you also seem to have conveniently forgotten that while the practices that led to Sgt Hu's death have been going on for a while now, Pandiaraj could not have created it, since he had only taken over less than two months prior to the incident. If you think that the dunking practice originated from him, you're the one talking nonsense.
I hope no-one is thinking Pandiaraj created the drill, neither did the charges say he did. He approved/ordered the drill, which can take many meanings. According to the charges,
"He told the instructors to hold the trainees' heads under water four times, for up to 20 seconds each time."
Is the dunking itself already a violation of TSR? If so, I don't see why Pandiaraj is not at fault and should not be charged. After all, his approval led to the nose digging incident (which he may not have approved) which is the cause of the death and the near-death.
What's so hard to understand here? -
The four as charged were indeed wrong.
Wrong for not checking up on approved “torture” means when conducting the course.
Wrong for being negligence on the part of training safety.
Wrong for being over zealous in their attempt to being realistic about the treatment a POW can expect.
My question is, “Was there an intent to cause hurt or the intent to kill the trainee?”
As someone who had gone through the often tough and sometimes “sadistic” training in Hendon, I doubt very much so.
Hypocrisy. Where is the hypocrisy in all that was said here?
After following the previous thread on this incident and this very thread, I have to come to the conclusion that the main hypocrisy all originate from people who are all too fast and eager to dish out a load to those from Hendon.
[B]“IMO, 4 years years for these jokers is quite a joke. Apply manslaughter charges and these champions are gone farks.”
“the blood on their hands will scream for justice when these 4 idiots die.“[/b]
And not surprisingly, these are the people who are often not from Hendon. They are screaming for “justice” to be served. Are they really interested in seeing justice served or are they gleefully awaiting for the fall of the commandos? The commandos who had claimed the best combat unit for several years. The commandos whose elite and special status had so much irked the displeasure, hatred, and jealousy of the “arm-chair commandos” who had fantasized about their own “skills” countless times on the grounds of counterstrike and the likes of it.
I had served in the formation and I must admit that the culture in there is different from the rest of the services. If there is to be another charge to be added to the four, it should be that they are very wrong to assume that people from outside the formation when attending the courses in Hendon, are ready, fit and prepared in both physically and mentally. I am not saying that people outside the formation are unfit, but rather for us who have started our service in that environment, we are more aware and prepared in all ways to expect the kinds and types of training methods, official and non-official alike.
I had gone through the combat survival course where only the spraying of water was employed. And I can tell you that that was considered a joke to my company mates and me.
“The trainers wanted to simulate a drowning experience to the trainee and killed him by "Accident." Question is, is it really that important for trainees to feel what it is like to drown in order to complete this course? Is that experience gonna be useful?
Heck, I can think of a hundred and one ways to torture a prisoner for information. Pulling out of fingernails/teeth with a plier, electrical shocks etc. Why not simulate these experiences too? I mean why just drowning? Come on, we don't want these elite warriors to miss out the full package do we? Better still, strip their pants and shove things up their ass, and simulate "Rape" too. For a full experience... Death simulation is quite cool too, why not that? Oh, already done. Sorry. Now that the death simulation is complete, can we bring the 2nd sgt back now?”
Are we to conduct the combat survival course whereby the trainees are taught to expect humane and “spraying of water” treatment by the enemy?
The recent fiasco that the US Army had with their treatment of the Iraqi prisoners proved that even a supposedly developed and civilized country like America cannot prevent prisoner abuse, what hope do we have or can expect our servicemen to face when in the custody of the enemy?
Spraying water on the trainees is supposed to simulate what? That the enemy will do similar "humane treatment" to extract information during interrogation? If that is the kind of treatment that the enemy will employ, I will bet that many “peace-loving“ soldiers will gladly be taken prisoner so as to sit out the conflict in a safe and humane environment. But is that the truth? To those who seek the truth in this matter, is that the kind of training that you think should be employed? I can only say that I am only too glad that many true trainers within the formation do not see it that way.
What went wrong was a mistake and a mistake that caused a guardsman to lost his life. There was no intent of the four trainers to kill him or any other trainees. Nevertheless it will be a mistake that the four will have to pay.
Going soft on the combat survival course or having useless methods like spraying of water on the trainees will be more damaging to us in the long run.
Whether by choice or not, those who are posted to the commandos took the risks and dangers that comes together with being the elite. Like it or not, we are there to be trained to do a job and even the most ah-beng and boh-chap fellow in my company knew and understood that. We still do.
It will be a shame to see the accomplishment of the commandos going down the drain for not the reason of Justice but for the malice intent and agenda of some.