4 SAF commandos charged over death of NSman
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Thank you, Icemoon - it's nice to know that some posters at least have some sense of reason.Originally posted by Icemoon:I hope no-one is thinking Pandiaraj created the drill, neither did the charges say he did. He approved/ordered the drill, which can take many meanings.
Looking at Moxie's ranting about Pandiaraj ordering the drill and calling it a "wicked atrocity", the implication is pretty clear that he is demonising Pandiaraj as being the sole origin of the order, rather than one who accepted what had been done before.
There is no argument that TSR had been violated in this case - one would have to be as inane as Moxie to propose otherwise. However, any reasonable person has to make the distinction between devising the order and continuing a pre-existing order. When it comes to assessing the degree of culpability, it is an all-important distinction.
I recently spoke to someone in the know about this case and asked why the case was being held in a civil court. Apparently, there is a vaguely-written understanding between Mindef that if a case has no serious national security implications, and it is of sufficient public interest, it may be heard in a civil court (I'll have to take a bit of time to dig up the chapter and verse). Unfortunately, RADM Teo's ill-considered declaration of "We will get to the bottom of this" necessitated such public interest. If Teo had not shot his mouth off, this circus would not be taking place. -
Well said, Soldier I, well said.
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very few outside the formation is able to understand our culture...Originally posted by Soldier I:And not surprisingly, these are the people who are often not from Hendon. They are screaming for “justice” to be served. Are they really interested in seeing justice served or are they gleefully awaiting for the fall of the commandos? The commandos who had claimed the best combat unit for several years. The commandos whose elite and special status had so much irked the displeasure, hatred, and jealousy of the “arm-chair commandos” who had fantasized about their own “skills” countless times on the grounds of counterstrike and the likes of it.
I had served in the formation and I must admit that the culture in there is different from the rest of the services. If there is to be another charge to be added to the four, it should be that they are very wrong to assume that people from outside the formation when attending the courses in Hendon, are ready, fit and prepared in both physically and mentally. I am not saying that people outside the formation are unfit, but rather for us who have started our service in that environment, we are more aware and prepared in all ways to expect the kinds and types of training methods, official and non-official alike.
Whether by choice or not, those who are posted to the commandos took the risks and dangers that comes together with being the elite. Like it or not, we are there to be trained to do a job and even the most ah-beng and boh-chap fellow in my company knew and understood that. We still do.
It will be a shame to see the accomplishment of the commandos going down the drain for not the reason of Justice but for the malice intent and agenda of some.
and most of the time, it useless talking to them abt it...
the most important is that, no mather what, we know that we're able to get the job done.
whether others able to appreciate, does not metter to me. -
A true comrade, Soilder I, and all those who understood.
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Okay, gentlemen, the word on the street is that the case will not, I repeat not, be heard tomorrow, owing to a request for an adjournment by the PROSECUTION. Let's give it 24 hours for confirmation.
If it is true, it looks like the judicial system here has lost its ISO9001 rating for manufacturing witnesses!
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Oh yeah. To Lion02, to plainly hide behind your own unit culture and expect others to accept what you fellas do as the only way and the right way smacks of high-handed arrogance, such attitudes which led to unfortunate incidents like these in the first place.Commandos do not live in a vacuum, they need to participate as a whole with the rest of the SAF too.You want to live by your own creed and live your own delusions that only you matter, I suggest you read Takuma's Battle Royale, for a insightful finding on how violence between likeminded people can also spread unchecked if we only seek to subvert ideas for our own ease and leisure.
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Just curious, what kind of culture does the commandos have? The very garang 'nothing is impossible' culture? Loyalty?
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LazerLordz, I can see your point, but I propose that there are a few things to consider here.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Oh yeah. To Lion02, to plainly hide behind your own unit culture and expect others to accept what you fellas do as the only way and the right way smacks of high-handed arrogance, such attitudes which led to unfortunate incidents like these in the first place.Commandos do not live in a vacuum, they need to participate as a whole with the rest of the SAF too.You want to live by your own creed and live your own delusions that only you matter, I suggest you read Takuma's Battle Royale, for a insightful finding on how violence between likeminded people can also spread unchecked if we only seek to subvert ideas for our own ease and leisure.
I don't think think Lion02 is hiding behind the culture. His post was in response to Soldier I's point, which in fact implies that the Commandos are being judged in comparison to other units' cultures.
The unit culture does not justify the incident that led to Sgt Hu's death. However, to suggest that the Commando culture is one of violence is inaccurate, and serves to highlight Soldier I's point that the rest of the SAF fails to understand the Commando culture.
The question I would raise is this: do Commandos choose to live in a vacuum? Let me raise just one example through which I can answer this question.
Of all the units in the SAF, we are the ones who spend the most time performing small unit operations. We are the four-man teams stuck 150 km into enemy territory, with little, if any, chance of receiving backup or replacements if things turn bad.
This one fact, amongst others, creates a culture that is unlike what you would find in other units. Because of the small team sizes, every man is trained to take over command if the section leaders are either killed or incapacitated - that's why the lowest rank in the unit is corporal.
Because of the diminished distinction between leaders and men, you will find that the unit culture involves a much lower level of attention to hierarchy than that of other units. From my experience working with other units, this has been interpreted as poor discipline, and we have received a lot of undeserved criticism from other units' soldiers because of that.
As corny as it sounds, we Commandos are a very misunderstood lot. From my experience with soldiers from other outfits that specialise in small-team operations, this seems to be a phenomenon that occurs in other countries' armed forces as well - the "snake eater" syndrome. Because we operate so differently from other units, we get discriminated against.
Therefore, it's not us who choose to live in a vacuum - it's other units that choose to stick us there. -
Picture this - u go thru months of sometimes mentally-exhausting (tortuous would be more agreeable to afew) of training, never knowing if you'll eventually make it through - and after u finally turn ops, you've lost count of how many times you were pushed to the limits and beyond (by choice or otherwise), you reach a new level of confidence in survivality. Not arrogance nor garang-ness, but the ability to look at a situation and deal with it under otherwise seemingly unsurmountable odds. It's about the "thinking" and mentality enhancing survivability rather than physical ability, though sometimes hardened by trainers in a somewhat negative fashion. It's the first 2 phases of NS in Cdo training that makes a person believe whatever he is going through now, it will not be worse what it felt in that first 6 months, but it's also that time that entrain the person the will of survivality and the ability to perform under difficult circumstances.Originally posted by Jazzswing:Just curious, what kind of culture does the commandos have? The very garang 'nothing is impossible' culture? Loyalty?
That's just the personal development part. Through it all, you'll realise you're not the only one being brought upteen times almost to your knees (and giving up is not an option - only an extension to whatever you and others are going through). Do it alone and your mates suffer with you, do it well together and everyone lives to see another day. And when the crunch comes during a mission, everyone believes in and depends on each teammate. Everyone is equal in a team, but we think as a whole, not as individuals.
As Ged said of operating behind enemy lines, we don't think of being killed 150km into unfriendly territories because that's where we're trained to operate, but we certainly think about how best to enhance our survivality and carry out our job the best we can in that kind of situation, without compromising others knowingly of course. Garang-ness will only lead to the demise of the whole operation. However, survivality does not encompass treasonable acts if captured by enemies, though sometimes it might mean extreme (or "by left" ) measures under extreme situations.
It's hard to explain, and the culture might be similar in small-unit teams in other units. Its part of what i believe in, my mentality, though i know i didn't put it well enough to be comprehendable or fully summarise my thoughts. Perhaps the only way to understand cdo culture is to go thru it in the atmosphere and environment of the Hendon grounds itself, and realising your spot in the scheme of things that is the formation's mentality and structure, almost a family to some, and a source of pride to many.
What's said in this post is entirely my own thoughts, and probably different from what others think. And is in no way related to the title of this topic . Apologies. -
Amen, psykor!
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Well, you've raised valid points there.No arguments about that.I would have to agree with you about the hierarchy thing, you're not the only formation where regimentation is just a little less than your standard unit profile, it goes the same for my formation, Logistics.
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You know what I'm talking about then, LazerLordz!
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well said, my friend.Originally posted by Gedanken:LazerLordz, I can see your point, but I propose that there are a few things to consider here.
I don't think think Lion02 is hiding behind the culture. His post was in response to Soldier I's point, which in fact implies that the Commandos are being judged in comparison to other units' cultures.
The unit culture does not justify the incident that led to Sgt Hu's death. However, to suggest that the Commando culture is one of violence is inaccurate, and serves to highlight Soldier I's point that the rest of the SAF fails to understand the Commando culture.
The question I would raise is this: do Commandos choose to live in a vacuum? Let me raise just one example through which I can answer this question.
Of all the units in the SAF, we are the ones who spend the most time performing small unit operations. We are the four-man teams stuck 150 km into enemy territory, with little, if any, chance of receiving backup or replacements if things turn bad.
This one fact, amongst others, creates a culture that is unlike what you would find in other units. Because of the small team sizes, every man is trained to take over command if the section leaders are either killed or incapacitated - that's why the lowest rank in the unit is corporal.
Because of the diminished distinction between leaders and men, you will find that the unit culture involves a much lower level of attention to hierarchy than that of other units. From my experience working with other units, this has been interpreted as poor discipline, and we have received a lot of undeserved criticism from other units' soldiers because of that.
As corny as it sounds, we Commandos are a very misunderstood lot. From my experience with soldiers from other outfits that specialise in small-team operations, this seems to be a phenomenon that occurs in other countries' armed forces as well - the "snake eater" syndrome. Because we operate so differently from other units, we get discriminated against.
Therefore, it's not us who choose to live in a vacuum - it's other units that choose to stick us there. -
LazerLoardz, i'm not good in words, but i just want to point out that, i can't stop what others r thinking and if the other party is still firm in their stand after our explaination, than be it.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Oh yeah. To Lion02, to plainly hide behind your own unit culture and expect others to accept what you fellas do as the only way and the right way smacks of high-handed arrogance, such attitudes which led to unfortunate incidents like these in the first place.Commandos do not live in a vacuum, they need to participate as a whole with the rest of the SAF too.You want to live by your own creed and live your own delusions that only you matter, I suggest you read Takuma's Battle Royale, for a insightful finding on how violence between likeminded people can also spread unchecked if we only seek to subvert ideas for our own ease and leisure.
everyone has their own right on his opinion, and for myself, i don't really see that there's a need to force others to accept my, though we can debate abt it.
regarding the culture, on the company level, abt 90% of us start together since bmt, and will remain together until the day we standdown. and it's this brotherhood that bond us closly together, though at times we do have argument and disagreement, but most important, we're able to solve the problem as a team.
on the unit level, we know that not many r able to make it throught to ops, and we feel bad for those who had put in their effort, but does not make it. at the sametime we're proud and respect those we make it.
during a field training in one of our in-camp, there's this raining night, we're all wet and cold... near mid-night, our OC comes to our location, he himself also all wet, with a pack of hot mee goreng and coffee. although it just a pack of mee goreng and coffee for four of us to share, but it's enough... he did the same for all other teams...
so r u able to understand this culture, this brotherhood?
sorry to off track the title of this topic. -
Lion02, Ged, psykror...I guess I know what you guys are talking about when you discuss Cdo culture. As much as my formation (Guards) and yours are rivals, I've never personally seen it that way. Like you guys, we operate in small teams of 5 behind enemy lines, although we don't engage them unless absolutely necessary. But it doesn't change the fact that we still had to be independent and survive by our wits and sometimes, luck. As most of you guys that have gone through ATECs know, there's always a huge bounty (extra off-days) for capturing scout teams...well, the opposite applies to us if we get caught...lotsa extras, and we sometimes have to buy beers for the rest of the teams (luckily its SAF beer, if not surely broke in no time).Originally posted by lion02:LazerLoardz, i'm not good in words, but i just want to point out that, i can't stop what others r thinking and if the other party is still firm in their stand after our explaination, than be it.
everyone has their own right on his opinion, and for myself, i don't really see that there's a need to force others to accept my, though we can debate abt it.
regarding the culture, on the company level, abt 90% of us start together since bmt, and will remain together until the day we standdown. and it's this brotherhood that bond us closly together, though at times we do have argument and disagreement, but most important, we're able to solve the problem as a team.
on the unit level, we know that not many r able to make it throught to ops, and we feel bad for those who had put in their effort, but does not make it. at the sametime we're proud and respect those we make it.
during a field training in one of our in-camp, there's this raining night, we're all wet and cold... near mid-night, our OC comes to our location, he himself also all wet, with a pack of hot mee goreng and coffee. although it just a pack of mee goreng and coffee for four of us to share, but it's enough... he did the same for all other teams...
so r u able to understand this culture, this brotherhood?
sorry to off track the title of this topic.
As a result, we were cross-trained heavily as well, and there was a distinctive lack of hierarchy in the field...soldiers from line companies always thought of us as show-offs, and believe me, we displayed the same, if not higher, level of disdain for them and their officers.
I guess the 'elite' within any formation will always have a different culture from the rest. Not because we choose to be different, but rather, the nature of our training, our size make-up and our vocation made us so. If so, then I dare say that we have earned the right to be different....and I dare say our espirit-de-corp is stronger...
The death of a fellow Guardsman hurts. Since we all had to go through CST as well, I've always assumed (and had been told by people beforehand) that the TSR book doesn't apply during CST. And I hate to say this, but that is the nature of the training. Nevertheless, it should have been within TSR limits, if there were ever any. But the death happened, and playing the hypocritical blame game isn't going to change things.
I wish the Cdos well and have never thought that it was ever the arrogance if you may, of the formation that resulted in Sgt Hu's death. We were all proud of our status as being 'special' and arrogance came as part of the package. Afterall, we were soldiers once....and young... -
Yup, Tango, you and guys like Joshua who do small-unit ops would know the culture that we're talking about, and also how we're discriminated against.
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I think most ppl know the culture, just that they dun really understand or I should say they never been there.Originally posted by Gedanken:Yup, Tango, you and guys like Joshua who do small-unit ops would know the culture that we're talking about, and also how we're discriminated against.
Back to the subject, i think the "ppl" on top should learn from this, by getting things out of proportion will not do anyone any more good not to say he himself.
X3, X4, X5... ... ... It is just another POLITICIAN PROPAGANDA. 'He' is showing all that he is doing his work.
But we as Singaporean, we dun get to choose who will be up there or there is not much who is willing to be choose.
For the earlier guys, I can say we have the feel of "home to defend" "duty" but after this and for the guys now, I dun know what is going through their mind now, both trainnee and instructor? I mean what are we doing all this for. Yes, a life is lost here, do we really want that to happen? Who want to? Any taker? It clear, no one wish that.
Hazi... ... ... Mr. Tan is still the best ever since he take over, we are somehow taken care of till lately after he so call hand over the post. -
We all know the SAF 7 core values, I don't have to reiterate any of them. We also know the 8th core value, "Whatever you do, don't get caught".
But, the most important one is the 9th one, which btw higher ups excute waaay better than anyone of us.
"Whatever you want to do, cover your own a** first"
The way it goes in the SAF, when anything goes wrong, first run for cover and distance yourself from it, then look for a scapegoat when the dust settles. That's where the buck stops; at whoever covered his fat behind better than the others, or whomever with the clout to find someone helpless enough to take the blame.
How many times have we seen this in the SAF? An example is when a battalion mission goes wrong. At the mission debrief, commanders will "shoot one another full of arrows" until one of the commanders can no longer defend himself. Then, he and his immediate superiors would both shoulder the blame for mission gone wrong. But in 99.999% of the cases, the CO NEVER takes any of the blame. [sarcasm]Afterall, the mission would never have gone wrong if everyone followed his order to the letter[/sarcasm]
I've seen this too many times as a spec whom btw is beneath notice on the grand scale of things. Politics among the military. Hardly noticed, we sit at the backmost row of the lecture room sniggering as the senior commanders try to shift the blame to someone else.
Except this time it happened in a more serious context. A life was lost and matter was blown up by the media. Now i'm not saying it isn't a matter big enough to be blown up, but I know of at least 2 other deaths that same year in the SAF that didn't make it into front page news.
The public cried for blood. The authorities started to panic. Somebody had to be the fall guy. In the end, the trainers, and their immediate superiors were sacrificed to appease the general public. To further absolve themselves from the blame, off went the head of the Cdo CO.
Years down the road, after hardly anyone from the public remembers this tragedy, the fall guys will still suffer, while those really responsible the crime will be sitting in cushier chairs, in a larger office, with more lavish furnishings.
That's the way the cookie crumbles ...