NS down to 2 years from Dec 04
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Roger that!Originally posted by Icemoon:I guess we won't see the effect of the change until SAF engages in her first major firefight.
Will our soldiers fall like a deck of card due to the over-confidence and arrogance of the policy makers?
6 months less or not, I think the 'Serve and Fark Off' mentality will still remain .. haha
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ord in apr 06 instead of june 06
V cut is better than no cut......22mths to go 
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u were affected?Originally posted by duotiga83:ord in apr 06 instead of june 06 V cut is better than no cut......22mths to go -
if we dont reduce the NS period for corporal and above... in view of the higher intake...
the SAF would balloon in size by an additional 12,000 to 13,000 men... enough to form another division... if nothing was done.
furthermore... i think the DEFMIN didnt want to scare our northern neighbour too much by tipping the balance too much.... as well as cutting cost of course...
eventually however.. all would go through NS... and all would become part of a growing larger pool of NSmen...
overall... in terms of total manpower count... it would be larger... even if the NS period is reduced.... so the headcount is still there...
that only leave the question of trainning proficiencies... which i would surmise would be difficult to measure... especially since the most comprehensive trainning is usually done during the first year of NS.
after 2 years of trainning... most NSF woulnt really be trainning much at all in the remaining last 6 month...
lastly... having more troopers per trainning cohort might actually reduce the average trainning results since its easier to keng when there are more soldiers around. -
watch news last night....
am I right to say that the main issue here is that some thinks that the NS has gone 'soft' by reducing 6 months and some thinks that its better to have a shorter NSF period so that guys can continue with their educations?
I kind of can't be bothered... cos nothing to do with me liao.. not as if they are cutting down the number of ICTs BUT dont cut mine. I love ICT -
yes.....Originally posted by wuming78:u were affected? ..../ORD mode.... though is pretty far away -
Personally, i dun think it will really affect the quality of soldiers that much.
1) our mass of warm bodies are in the SIRs and most of them are trained within 2 yrs (current system) as they normally dun have dips or 'A'. and normally hold LCP rank thus it doesnt affect this grp as much.
2) The group that are really going to be hit hard would be SA, SAR, etc. Where by they normally hold Dip or 'A's are they are more technically inclined. Normally they would finish training in 2 yrs with the remaining half year rotting away or kenging away. Its a total waste of time and SAF resources. Might as well release them after they completed their training. Its their resevist unit that they need to click well that's most impt (not the case if they are mono) as they would be in war with reservist unit not NSF unit.
3) Everybody seems to forget the office clerks. most of them would be serving 2 half years doing routine work and might not even need to reservist so where's the operational readiness in this sense except that they are wasting their own time and wasting SAF resources. I'm sure they would love to get out earlier. Both free up their own time, get intergrated into society earlier and freeing up SAF resources mainly then their allowance.
4) By freeing up SAF resources, these resources can be diverted for other uses, maybe more advance procurement, or even more fund for training purposes to make up for the lag of 6mths taring by training more intensively during the 24 mths using the expanded funds or even more simply, more welfare
just my 0.002 cents -
Originally posted by clarencebk:Personally, i dun think it will really affect the quality of soldiers that much.
1) our mass of warm bodies are in the SIRs and most of them are trained within 2 yrs (current system) as they normally dun have dips or 'A'. and normally hold LCP rank thus it doesnt affect this grp as much.
2) The group that are really going to be hit hard would be SA, SAR, etc. Where by they normally hold Dip or 'A's are they are more technically inclined. Normally they would finish training in 2 yrs with the remaining half year rotting away or kenging away. Its a total waste of time and SAF resources. Might as well release them after they completed their training. Its their resevist unit that they need to click well that's most impt (not the case if they are mono) as they would be in war with reservist unit not NSF unit.
3) Everybody seems to forget the office clerks. most of them would be serving 2 half years doing routine work and might not even need to reservist so where's the operational readiness in this sense except that they are wasting their own time and wasting SAF resources. I'm sure they would love to get out earlier. Both free up their own time, get intergrated into society earlier and freeing up SAF resources mainly then their allowance.
4) By freeing up SAF resources, these resources can be diverted for other uses, maybe more advance procurement, or even more fund for training purposes to make up for the lag of 6mths taring by training more intensively during the 24 mths using the expanded funds or even more simply, more welfare
just my 0.002 cents
that is not true..there is now about same proportion of A level and poly ppl in SAR nad SIR.AND THESE GROUP of PPL are basically doing stuff like plucking grass and doing endless guard duties for the last 6 months because the 2 yr soldiers have ORDed..and there is shortage of people and to make things worse,,they still have to stay in to maintain discilpine????so they cannoyt realli take up any course outside or something..really wasting our time..
also i muz point out that even though all A levels and polys were supposed to be trained for tasks such as APC drivers and TANK drivers in armoured units so that for the last 6 months there r ppl to take care of equipment during unit low-key phase, on the ground, in the end, some mono ppl also became APC and tank drivers, such tt the remaining few A level and poly drivers had to do more work bcos these O levels ORDed 6 months before them..this is really crappy SAF at its best..
i agree on your other 3 points though.wht's the point of keeping warm bodies..they should save the $$ and upgrade the equipment like the SM1s aka walking deathtraps.. -
Originally posted by miong:
No big change man, it was originally 2 years. Later Government extended NS by another 6 months - [b]without a national consensus. Most Singaporeans were terribly devasated and AGAINST it.
If NS cut to 12 months - that will be seriously considered as government's genuine concern for the financial hardship and inconvenience sufffered by many Singaporeans because of lengthy NS.
Take a look at these countries which have NS like us -
Countries with mandatory military service
Austria
In Austria, compulsory military service applies to all male citizens from 18 to 36 years of age (with some exceptions), in which the basic military service must be done. The duration of the basic military service is eight months. This can either be done in one go, or as a service of six months with regular weapon exercises of several days as member of the Miliz until the duration of eight months is reached.
Military alternative service or civil service is possible in place of the compulsory military service. Its duration is 12 months and can be performed at different organizations.
China (PRC)
The People's Republic of China has conscription for both men and women. Women who are conscripted go to the army for two months and learn to fire guns. .
Finland
As of 2004, Finland has mandatory military service of at least six months, depending on the assigned position: those trained as officers serve for twelve months, specialty troops serve for nine months, and other rank and file serve for six months. Women can serve, if they choose. Civilian service of 13 months is available in lieu of military service. Men who opt for neither are sent to open prison where they may work and study for a period of six months.
Germany
Germany has a mandatory military service of nine months for men. Women may volunteer and are allowed to perform the same jobs as men. A conscientious objector may write a petition requesting permission to do a civilian "substitute service" ("Ersatzdienst"), which is usually accepted, whereupon he is expected to serve 10 months. Overall, however, during the past few years, the number of men being drafted has declined significantly.
German law provides several options for conscientious objectors to perform alternative public service instead of a weapons-based military service:
Greece
As of 2002, Greece (Hellenic Republic) has a mandatory military service of 18 months. However, it is developing a professional army system, and it is widely expected that the mandatory military service will be abolished soon, with some ranks serving for 14 or 16 months in recent times. Greek soldiers fire a gun during the first two months of their service.
Israel
Israel has mandatory military service for both men and women who hold Israeli citizenship. It is the only country which currently practices female conscription.
Lebanon
Lebanon has a mandatory military service of one year for men.
Malaysia
As of 2004, Malaysia has a mandatory national service of three months for a selected group of both men and women. 20% of 18-year-olds are selected through a lottery system to join this program. Trainees will not be trained using firearms. The first training date is Feb 16, 2004.
Norway
Norway has mandatory military service for men (women can volunteer) of 6, 9 or 12 months. Pacifists can apply for alternative service.
Russia
As of 2002, Russia (Russian Federation) has a mandatory two-year draft but most Russians avoid it. Only 11 percent of Russian men enter mandatory military service.
Singapore
Singapore has one of the longest mandatory military service for males, at two and a half years. As of Jan 2005, it will be reduce by 6 months. [/b]
South Korea
As of 2002, South Korea has a mandatory military service of 26 months.
Sweden
Less than a third of the Scandinavian country's eligible 19-year-olds are actually drafted each year.
Switzerland
Switzerland has the largest militia army in the world (200 000 including reserves). Military service for Swiss men is obligatory according to the Federal Constitution, and includes 17 weeks of basic training as well as annual 3-week-refresher courses until a number of service days which increases with rank (300 days for privates) is reached. Service for women is voluntary, but identical in all respects. Conscientous objectors can choose 450 days of community service instead of military service. Medical deferments and dismissals from basic training (often on somewhat dubious grounds) have increased significantly in the last years. Therefore, only about 33% of Swiss men actually complete basic training.
Taiwan (ROC)
As 0f 2004, The Republic of China has implemented mandatory military service for all males since 1949. Females in the outlying islands of Fujian must also serve. Beginning January 2004, the mandatory service has been shortened by two months.
Canada
In Canada conscription has never taken place in peace-time. Conscription became an extremely controversial issue during both WWI and WWII, especially in the province of Quebec.
France
France was one of the first nations to employ conscription. During the wars following the French Revolution the army needed men to stop invasions Austrian and British invasions. France abolished peacetime military conscription in 2001.
Slovenia
Slovenia's Prime Minister Anton Rop abolished mandatory military service on September 9, 2003.
United Kingdom
The United Kingdom had conscription during the First World War and the Second World War. After the Second World War, it introduced National Service, which was abolished in 1960.
United States of America
The United States has instituted mandatory military service at various times, usually during wars such as the American Civil War, World War II and Vietnam War. Registration for selective service (for possible future drafts) is required of all males at their 18th birthday. Registrants remain in the pool until January 1 of the year they turn 25.
When the United States began mobilizing in 1940, in response to the threat from Nazi Germany, the first peacetime draft in its history was introduced. Use of the draft persisted through the early years of the Cold War.
However, in the aftermath of Vietnam, it was recognized that retention of conscription would be completely impracticable.
The military currently does not believe that a draft is needed. They feel that the current personnel levels of the military services is sufficient. Some members of the military feel that an all volunteer military provides military services with people that are in the military because it is truly what they want to do, and makes the military better. In recent times many more positions in the military require highly skilled and trained individuals, which some in the military have felt could only be obtained through volunteer means. There have been rumours of a targeted draft to obtain the people that have specific skills for military service.
We can learn from USA , we must also admit a strong regular army is sufficient to deterent terrorists during peace time. Afterall, in war time, our island has been considered by many top military tacticians as being too small to afford a strong defensive position if we are attacked.
So why NS for Singapore - a country not in conflict or fighting a war with its neighbour?
Have a regular army of 50,000. It will cost much more to have a regular SAF.
Of course, NS is better alternative because it's cheap forced labour . [/b] -
Since more A levels and dip holders......reservists training for these OR NS men would cost more to the SAF.
With technology
......headcount required for each unit can come down further.
So maybe a larger group of regular soldiers is actually a more COST EFFECTIVE way to go for the SAF. 10,000 more to make one division?
Of course NS has to continue.....maybe it can come down to 12 months in the near future.
Reservist training (13 year cycle) maybe cut down by at least half as well. -
I wonder if the SAF will form new units - perhaps revive 2 Guards along the way? - to absorb the extra 5,000 conscripts each year.
I think the operational-status rotation will definately be affected, now that qualified units will serve a half-year less than before. No wonder 2-week standbys are already in norm (as suggested in another thread).
With the new technology, are they gonna shorten the vocational courses as well? Ditto OCS - while overall tilting towards sustaining the present training-period for NS units as much as possible?
Clarencebk, I'm ex-Arty so here's my comment to your post; I dunno how utilitarian it was to other Formations, or if it's still relevant today, or whether it was different in the 1970's. But from my own experience, I've always interpreted that everything - inc. 2 or 2.5 years' conscription - is oriented around a feasible training period for operational status, which is (was?) chronologically 1.5 years for an Arty unit. That's the period when soldiers of various vocations would come together to work as an integrated whole.
Deductively, it also meant that, as they initially assemble:
- the gunners were 6-month-old soldiers, after 3 months mono-intake BMT & 3 months vocational training.
- the Arty NCOs were 9-month-old soldiers, after 3 months Tekong BMT, 3 months section-leader course & 3 months vocational training (when the gunners were concurrently doing BMT). They would've already been posted in to train together with the gunners during the latter's own vocational training.
- the Arty officers were 12-month-old soldiers, after 3 months Tekong BMT & 9 months OCS course.
- the other non-NCO appointments (TAs, signallers, etc.) were also
6-month-old soldiers, after 3 months Tekong BMT & 3 months vocational training.
Of course, there's also "auxiliary" troops like drivers-medics-storemen-clerks, as well as regular officers/NCOs & both disrupters & makeupees, whose inprocessing dates can further complicate the status quo, but all in all the operational main body is formed around the 4 sub-groups above. The old "problem" was that, during my time in the mid-'80s, more & more of Group 4 - including myself - were A-level educated & thus, with an extra half-year to serve, didn't ROD with the battalion. The unit HQ didn't have room for all of us, so we got attached to anyone who wanted us: Training Cadre, other Arty units, overseas exercises, even just the COS-needy!
But all of us did serve 1.5 years together, regardless of our subsequent fates as reservists. if the SAF is still using this chronological "formula", then IMHO they will have to make some major adjustments to the length of vocational-training & possibly leadership courses as well, so that they can get the timing down on the bulk personnel arriving to train for operational status.
It's an entirely separate (logistical) matter to just possessing new-technology weapons, even as the latter can indirectly aid the efficiency of the former.
Curious: Do the other non-Arty combat formations time their forming up & training schedule in the same way?
P.S. The last 6 months of the said 1.5 years was kinda "lobo" for my unit; we'd passed our proficiency test for the 2nd time &, apparently, inherited the role of live-firing resource for any foot unit that wanted some realistic toppings during their SAFTI field exercises. But I remember we ultimately spent 2-3 of them months converting to our reservist artillery weapon too, so, no, it wasn't a complete waste of time. -
The crux of the problem lies with the 2.5 years soldiers who never ORD with the unit.
Freaking hell ... if they just let them serve 2 years ... ALL the problem will be solved. -
Pardon me but i cannot see wat you disagree on.Originally posted by rancour5:
that is not true..there is now about same proportion of A level and poly ppl in SAR nad SIR.AND THESE GROUP of PPL are basically doing stuff like plucking grass and doing endless guard duties for the last 6 months because the 2 yr soldiers have ORDed..and there is shortage of people and to make things worse,,they still have to stay in to maintain discilpine????so they cannoyt realli take up any course outside or something..really wasting our time..
i][i]
I'm saying the 6mths is a waste of time doing sai kang and from wat u wrote, you seems to agree.
Maybe i'm stupid
Another point to note, the unit is having a dilema, they have a half year window of slack period becos they could not intergrate the oldbirds with the new birds thus they prefer not to have any intake during that window, instead wait til the old ones ord then start training new ones again. Often they will also take the chance to clean up abit, repair abit and the old birds being the the only free strength (after completing their training with the LCPs who already ORDed) are arrowed to do all the shit work. Isnt that cmpletely waste of talents? and actually that 1/2 yr window is actually unnecessary except for wasting SAF resourses instead of optimizing it.
(pardon me, i think its late now and im babblering)
Do correct me if im wrong. -
Originally posted by Moxie:
1stly, to NathanG5, Thanks for the info, its was very informative.
[b]Clarencebk, I'm ex-Arty so here's my comment to your post; I dunno how utilitarian it was to other Formations, or if it's still relevant today, or whether it was different in the 1970's. But from my own experience, I've always interpreted that everything - inc. 2 or 2.5 years' conscription - is oriented around a feasible training period for operational status, which is (was?) chronologically 1.5 years for an Arty unit. That's the period when soldiers of various vocations would come together to work as an integrated whole.
To Moxie:
I'm not from an operational unit so i cant really comment much with regards to the operational status.
However from wat i know, with the current new training plans and simulators and the higher education of troops, i'm sure the training process can be shorten by a month or 2 at least. For officers to intergrate with the the men, i agree with the training system as suggested by dkhoo.
By using that system, SAF would be optimizing this change of policy and in keeping up with times. I personally has seen so many time that officers trying so hard to get accepted by their men but often failed. Its sad cos as demonstrated in "Band of Brothers". An officer who fail to command the respect of men is not fit to lead them, but unfortunately he is often the one who make the decision that will do or break the life of his mens and specs often can do nothing abt it and as a result, u see innocent men dying for nothing, dying for no good cause. In a people-scarce singapore, we can NEVER allow that to happen. We must ensure that all men are good men and are returned safely in 1 piece not 1 urn to their loved ones.
From wat i know, an NSF during his full term time is only required to know the command, structure and intergration up to the battalion level. The higher levels are left during their Reservist time. And more often then not, esp in SIR units, NSF unit will not be your NS unit, therefore the intergration with other unit is not a must during NSF time. -
sori bro..its not by me..its by miong..the nick on top of the whole quote..Originally posted by clarencebk:1stly, to NathanG5, Thanks for the info, its was very informative.
To Moxie:
I'm not from an operational unit so i cant really comment much with regards to the operational status.
However from wat i know, with the current new training plans and simulators and the higher education of troops, i'm sure the training process can be shorten by a month or 2 at least. For officers to intergrate with the the men, i agree with the training system as suggested by dkhoo.
By using that system, SAF would be optimizing this change of policy and in keeping up with times. I personally has seen so many time that officers trying so hard to get accepted by their men but often failed. Its sad cos as demonstrated in "Band of Brothers". An officer who fail to command the respect of men is not fit to lead them, but unfortunately he is often the one who make the decision that will do or break the life of his mens and specs often can do nothing abt it and as a result, u see innocent men dying for nothing, dying for no good cause. In a people-scarce singapore, we can NEVER allow that to happen. We must ensure that all men are good men and are returned safely in 1 piece not 1 urn to their loved ones.
From wat i know, an NSF during his full term time is only required to know the command, structure and intergration up to the battalion level. The higher levels are left during their Reservist time. And more often then not, esp in SIR units, NSF unit will not be your NS unit, therefore the intergration with other unit is not a must during NSF time. -
From wat i know, an NSF during his full term time is only required to know the command, structure and intergration up to the battalion level. The higher levels are left during their Reservist time.
Erm, can anyone elaborate what he mean? Don't NSF units take part in brigade and division exercises too?
WAIT a minute ... clarencebk was replying to Moxie. When Moxie served his NS, there was no Combined Arms Division yet right? Haha ...
And more often then not, esp in SIR units, NSF unit will not be your NS unit, therefore the intergration with other unit is not a must during NSF time.
Yup, your unit from one or two digits become three digits. -
keke..solli solli.. haha..to clarify wht i didnt agree with u on is the pt tt only SIRs have the majority of warm bodies. SARs also have more than half mono intake sodiers.Originally posted by clarencebk:Pardon me but i cannot see wat you disagree on.
I'm saying the 6mths is a waste of time doing sai kang and from wat u wrote, you seems to agree.
Maybe i'm stupid
Another point to note, the unit is having a dilema, they have a half year window of slack period becos they could not intergrate the oldbirds with the new birds thus they prefer not to have any intake during that window, instead wait til the old ones ord then start training new ones again. Often they will also take the chance to clean up abit, repair abit and the old birds being the the only free strength (after completing their training with the LCPs who already ORDed) are arrowed to do all the shit work. Isnt that cmpletely waste of talents? and actually that 1/2 yr window is actually unnecessary except for wasting SAF resourses instead of optimizing it.
(pardon me, i think its late now and im babblering)
Do correct me if im wrong.
the rest i agree with you wholeheartedly as a some1 who has gone thru the F&*# up system..
also actually the low key phase is actually bcos there is usually change of leadership during this period and they need to plan for next intake. integratng old birds and new birds is not a problem as far as i can see bcos during the unit high key, u will also have some ppl toppin up battlion strength when need arises.
also i am very sure that the training phase can be further reduced because a bout 2 to 3 months per year is actually didicated to NDP preparations..hvin done it for 2 yrs..it beats me how they can take from may to august to prepare for NDP...And why cant they contract out certain aspects of it.. -
Me & my kakis used to wonder, as our ICT stints wounded down, whether the then-newly implemented 5-month BMT (or whatever) would've forced significant adjustments to training timetables for NS operational status.
Until informed otherwise, I'm assuming this status quo hadn't changed that much since my own time in the 2nd half of the '80s - & that, even with the 2-year blanket conscription, the SAF continues to adhere that an NSF unit must train together for X years before they enter the reserves.
I'm speaking more from the Arty viewpoint, but my feeling is it shouldn't negatively affect the individual training for NCOs & other ranks (BMT, vocational plus relevant specialist courses) all that much - the new technology can, on paper, save back up to a fortnight's duration in attendance. Of course, it'll also resolve the non-NCO, 2.5-year NS "displacement" for good.
But I foresee the present 9th-month OCS term as a possibly major obstacle to adjust around; my knowledge is the cadets' schedules have always been jam-packed, so how much time is realistically saveable so that they can be posted out earlier if possible? Presumably, they're from the same Tekong intake as the Arty NCOs but - unlike the latter - they're comparatively 3 months behind in arriving to work with the gunners. Realistically, will they be mature enough to form chemistry &/or lead within a 2-year NS window, with or without a shortened OCS course?
The other probable handicap, for me, is if the NSF operational unit must switch to another system (weapon, apparatus or technology) before they ORD. If its training calendar's already reduced by 3 months from, say, 1.5 to 1.25 years to reflect the 2-year conscription, then having to additionally schedule in a conversion timetable would cut the original training cycle further, to perhaps just 1 year (for argument's sake). IMHO That'll be unfortunate; technical proficiency is one thing, but unit cooperation needs more time to gel simply cuz it's human-oriented.