Force modernization trend in SE Asia
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Force modernization trend in South east Asia by Dr Andrew Tan.
http://www.idss.edu.sg/WorkingPapers/WP59.pdf
A very interesting article that gives an overview of the arms modernization program in SEA. Malaysia is the most aggressive and has made great progress in catching up with Singapore.
Buying more hardware may not be a good solution. While we are planning to tranform SAF to a 3G force is a good idea, what else can we do?
Here is a summary of MAF recent and planned purchases:
Army
48 PT-91 MBTs
211 ACV-300 IFVs
22 Denel G5 155mm Self Propelled Howitzers
AT-7 and various anti-tank missiles
ASTROS II
11 A109M Helicopters
Navy
4 Frigates
6 Meko OPVs (plan for up to 27)
3 submarines
Air Force
18 Su-30 fighter jets
6 Super-Lynx & 6 Fennec helicpoters
Various SAM missiles
4 AWAC planes -
a silent arm race....
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That was in their 7th Malaysian plan. But many didn't went on because of the poor economy. Wait till the 8th Malaysian plan, you will see this plans again.Originally posted by 84mmrr:Force modernization trend in South east Asia by Dr Andrew Tan.
http://www.idss.edu.sg/WorkingPapers/WP59.pdf
A very interesting article that gives an overview of the arms modernization program in SEA. Malaysia is the most aggressive and has made great progress in catching up with Singapore.
Buying more hardware may not be a good solution. While we are planning to tranform SAF to a 3G force is a good idea, what else can we do?
Here is a summary of MAF recent and planned purchases:
Army
48 PT-91 MBTs
211 ACV-300 IFVs
22 Denel G5 155mm Self Propelled Howitzers
AT-7 and various anti-tank missiles
ASTROS II
11 A109M Helicopters
Navy
4 Frigates
6 Meko OPVs (plan for up to 27)
3 submarines
Air Force
18 Su-30 fighter jets
6 Super-Lynx & 6 Fennec helicpoters
Various SAM missiles
4 AWAC planes -
Current edition of Asian Defence Journal shows that their PT-91 with ERA. Not sure of the effectiveness of these against tandem charge warheads like SPIKE.Originally posted by 84mmrr:Force modernization trend in South east Asia by Dr Andrew Tan.
http://www.idss.edu.sg/WorkingPapers/WP59.pdf
A very interesting article that gives an overview of the arms modernization program in SEA. Malaysia is the most aggressive and has made great progress in catching up with Singapore.
Buying more hardware may not be a good solution. While we are planning to tranform SAF to a 3G force is a good idea, what else can we do?
Here is a summary of MAF recent and planned purchases:
Army
48 PT-91 MBTs
211 ACV-300 IFVs
22 Denel G5 155mm Self Propelled Howitzers
AT-7 and various anti-tank missiles
ASTROS II
11 A109M Helicopters
Navy
4 Frigates
6 Meko OPVs (plan for up to 27)
3 submarines
Air Force
18 Su-30 fighter jets
6 Super-Lynx & 6 Fennec helicpoters
Various SAM missiles
4 AWAC planes
ACV-300s are armed with 25mm M242 so would be symmentrically matched with Ultra OWS. However, not sure of the armour type used. ACV-300 and Ultra are basically M113 type vehicles with 5 road wheels, as opposed to BIONIX which has 6, in other words larger, heavier (read more power-to-weight ratio and better armour) Anticipate better still when they get the upgraded ones
G5 are towed guns with APUs for short-distance travel, like FH88/2000 - no protection from counterfire and weather effects, and poor shoot-and-scoot cap
AT-7 is the Pakistani ATGM ? Probably something like a MILAN 2
Have no equivalent with regards to ASTROS II
A109 is the Mangusta gunship from Bell-Augusta ? Something like a more modern version of Huey Cobra, optics are nose-mounted, no mast-mounted sensors to exploit terrain for masking techniques, unlike Longbow Apache which even better has mast-mounted radar. Mangusta probably fires HOT2/TOW2 which require operator to train the sights on target until impact. With AGM-114K Hellfire or even SPIKE, this is not necessary with Longbow
For SAMs, probably have Starsteak as their point defence MANPADS and getting the JERNAS for point to area defence. No medium to long range SAM like SA-10 or HAWK/Patriot. SEAD using HARM, or ALARM when Typhoon comes in, would do the job. Tricky ones will be the passive MANPADS, this will require simultaneous air and land penetration - Longbow and SF teams to do Operation Cleansweeps all over the FEBA -
Not true. Look at today's ST:Originally posted by sbst275:That was in their 7th Malaysian plan. But many didn't went on because of the poor economy. Wait till the 8th Malaysian plan, you will see this plans again.
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,4386,261706,00.html?
JULY 16, 2004
KL's extra $720m to buy arms
KUALA LUMPUR - Malaysia has set aside an extra RM1.61 billion (S$720 million) this year for arms purchases, including submarines, tanks and helicopters.
Defence Minister Najib Razak said yesterday that a large slice of the money - RM731 million - would go towards upgrading the Royal Malaysian Navy's power with Scorpene submarines, Fennec and Super Lynx helicopters and new patrol vessels.
A further RM523.6 million was for the army, which would acquire main battle tanks and air defence systems, Datuk Seri Najib told the Bernama news agency.
Malaysia had already announced agreements to buy Russian fighter jets for US$900 million (S$1.5 billion), French submarines for US$972 million, British and Russian missile systems for US$364 million and Polish attack tanks worth US$368 million. -- AFP -
Because this is as part of the coming 8th Malaysian plan (2005 - 200Originally posted by 84mmrr:Not true. Look at today's ST:
http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/asia/story/0,4386,261706,00.html?
JULY 16, 2004
KL's extra $720m to buy arms
KUALA LUMPUR - Malaysia has set aside an extra RM1.61 billion (S$720 million) this year for arms purchases, including submarines, tanks and helicopters.
Defence Minister Najib Razak said yesterday that a large slice of the money - RM731 million - would go towards upgrading the Royal Malaysian Navy's power with Scorpene submarines, Fennec and Super Lynx helicopters and new patrol vessels.
A further RM523.6 million was for the army, which would acquire main battle tanks and air defence systems, Datuk Seri Najib told the Bernama news agency.
Malaysia had already announced agreements to buy Russian fighter jets for US$900 million (S$1.5 billion), French submarines for US$972 million, British and Russian missile systems for US$364 million and Polish attack tanks worth US$368 million. -- AFP
The heli are for the coastal patrol
MBTs and air defence are actually long overdue as the plan was made as early as 1980's. -
In Singapore, these are the planned plans
RSAF
Replacement of A4SU - By 20 F16D and 20 (Selection)
Replacement of F5/T - If eventually replaced together with A4SU
Replacement of UH1H - To a naval helicopter, 2 known contestant - UH60 Sea Hawk and AS552 Cougar
Replacement of C130H - To C130J
Navy
Frigates - 6 Stealth to be in by 2009
Purchase of MCM (Completed)
Putrchase of sub (Completed) -
The MY has always practise NATO,usually lot of procurement were small in number and long delay , reason? No money lah!
Attack helo till now still no order, almost 20 years!
For MBTs talk a lot , qty abt 100s but more than 10 years later then order, only 48!
And their procurement policy also very cockup, very much decided by the politicians rather than by professional, just look at the zoo of RMAF and the recent order of two different type of IFV, namely ACV300 and KIFV. Pure logistics nightmares!
And of course the total waste of money for Astros 2, they should have spent the money first on their conventional arty first, so far only abt 40 155mm pieces!
Army
48 PT-91 MBTs
211 ACV-300 IFVs
22 Denel G5 155mm Self Propelled Howitzers
AT-7 and various anti-tank missiles : So far only from Pakistan which actually a old Russian copy.
ASTROS II
11 A109M Helicopters : This we will have to see, whether they rocket armed or not, so far I heard there is no self defence flare at all!
Navy
4 Frigates : No order yet
6 Meko OPVs (plan for up to 27) : Only gun armed, no money for missile.So far only 6 , the rest on hold.
3 submarines
Air Force
18 Su-30 fighter jets
6 Super-Lynx & 6 Fennec helicpoters
Various SAM missiles : So far small number of Igla, Anza 2 and Jenas
4 AWAC planes:No order yet -
Wow only Malaysia upgrading that much in SEA..
M'sia is oso kiasu sia... -
Seems to me their trying to buy some "respect".
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i dont know how much "respect" they have bought... but they sure brought a barrel of laugh....Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:Seems to me their trying to buy some "respect". -
Correct, such plans were already overdue by 20 yrs for buying tanks, sub and AEWOriginally posted by tripwire:i dont know how much "respect" they have bought... but they sure brought a barrel of laugh....
Another thing is of the purchase of SU-30... They are getting in exchange of palm oil to Russia... Ha Ha Ha -
Well, M'sia Defense minister during his interview by Berita Minggu last year did say this:Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:Seems to me their trying to buy some "respect".
"We must develop the MAF so that everyone will feel that even if they are not fearful of us, they will at least respect us. "
Dr Andrew Tan in the article also mentioned the factors that contributed to such arms purchases:
Economc growth
EEZ surveillance & protection (esp. in South China Sea)
Inter-state tensions in the region ( we all know who is the "friendly" neighbour)
Internal & regional security concerns (eg. terrorism, piracy)
Domestic political factors
Prestige (not to lose face during bilaternal or multilateral exercises -
MAF have the Starburst, not Starstreak and it is Jernas, not Jenas.
In politics, there is no country that is totally at fault nor totally free of blame. Both Singapore and Malaysia are constantly trying to outdo each other in everything and at such there is no such thing as who is the real "friendly neighbour" as Singapore can be provoking and annoying at times, just like Malaysia being unreasonable at times.
And also the G5 uses a fire control computer, which accounts for weather conditions such as wind. RSAF's F-5S should not be replaced in the near future because they were just upgraded some years ago. They will most likey be replaced by the Eurofighter, F-15K or the Rafale, depending on which aircraft is selected.
And 84mmrr, the link you provide us is apparently not working. All we see is a blank page. -
This has been around for some time already, the deal to replace the A4SU may go up to 60 to replace F5T altogether as RSAF has indicated that to save cost, only 2 aircraft will be used in the near future...Originally posted by student 17:RSAF's F-5S should not be replaced in the near future because they were just upgraded some years ago. They will most likey be replaced by the Eurofighter, F-15K or the Rafale, depending on which aircraft is selected.
And 84mmrr, the link you provide us is apparently not working. All we see is a blank page. -
Originally posted by 84mmrr:
Wow, at least someone caught my shot at Mr Najib.
Well, M'sia Defense minister during his interview by Berita Minggu last year did say this:
"We must develop the MAF so that everyone will feel that even if they are not fearful of us, [b]they will at least respect us. "
[/b]
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It's a pdf file so it takes a longer time to download and open the acrobat reader. The best way is to save the file in your hard disk first.Originally posted by student 17:And 84mmrr, the link you provide us is apparently not working. All we see is a blank page.
IDSS website is a good site to visit. -
I wouldnt say that the Submarines acquisition programme is utterly completed. In the surface it might looks to be our current submarines are fully outfit to be an attack ship but more or less its still a training ship for us. Since its a training ship, more surprises have yet to surface. As mention several times of the class of submarines evaluated by the DSTA TeamOriginally posted by sbst275:In Singapore, these are the planned plans
RSAF
Replacement of A4SU - By 20 F16D and 20 (Selection)
Replacement of F5/T - If eventually replaced together with A4SU
Replacement of UH1H - To a naval helicopter, 2 known contestant - UH60 Sea Hawk and AS552 Cougar
Replacement of C130H - To C130J
Navy
Frigates - 6 Stealth to be in by 2009
Purchase of MCM (Completed)
Putrchase of sub (Completed) -
In that Tim bk, it has been stated as that. But the deal with Sweden has been completed.Originally posted by Orcishwarrior:I wouldnt say that the Submarines acquisition programme is utterly completed. In the surface it might looks to be our current submarines are fully outfit to be an attack ship but more or less its still a training ship for us. Since its a training ship, more surprises have yet to surface. As mention several times of the class of submarines evaluated by the DSTA Team
Me too, I won't be surprised when they are buying larger submarines.
Actually, I also have a instinct that the 1st batch of Super Puma (Cougar) will be replaced as they are already 20 yrs old. They came in 1984. -
This post has been deleted by the Rachmaninoff on 30th August 2004
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Now even the Aussies have join in with their purchase of missiles.
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While it might be interesting to note what our neighbours are buying, we should all remember one thing, cliche as it may be. WAR IS HELL. When war breaks out, there is no victor & only losers.
So while there is a need for every country to ensure they are adequately armed to defend themselves, it is also pointless to engage in a tit for tat arms race. Oh you bought this so I must buy that to counter. Since you are getting that, so I must get this.
So I don't see why some ppl get all flustered about M'sia buying this & buying that. Yes they are buying MBTs, but we supposedly have MBTs too right? They are getting subs but so what, we have subs too. They are getting new fighter jets, as are we. They are getting self propelled howitzers & we already have the Primus. They are considering to get attack helicopters, while we already have the Apache.
So I fail to see the big deal. Some might see M'sia's sudden purchases as a threat to S'pore. I prefer to adopt a more rational point of view. During the past years when the economy sucked, S'pore not only did not scale down defence spending but increased the defence budget.
M'sia on the other hand greatly slashed defence spending. Many purchases were put on hold. So they are now merely making up for lost time. Stuff which they wanted to buy last time but couldn't due to huge cuts in defence spending, are being bought now when their economy is better.
It is M'sia's right to buy whatever they deem necessary to defend themselves, just as it is our right to do the same.
So let us not get all hot under the collar & start speculating why M'sia is suddenly buying so many things & also saying that SAF should buy this because M'sia bought that.
A tit for tat response serves no purpose & as what our defence minister said before, you don't need a tank to fight a tank. It could be a rocket system mounted on a tracked vehicles or even an attack helicopter. In other words, what I'm saying is that we don't have to buy something just 'cos M'sia bought it. As long as we are able to counter potential threats & keep our country safe, that is good enough.
We don't want our SEAsian neighbours to get all suspicious of us each time we buy something, so let's accord them the same respect when they buy something. -
While all the above mentioned hardware (whether in ORBAT or planned) looks good on paper.......
I wish to add and remind 'of the human element' whereby a few motivated men bypass NORAD and all the Hi Tech gear associated with it, to bring down the WTC.
And all they had with them were some laptops to run flight sim programs and cardboard cutters!
It's still very much the software that's the decider. -
I sincerely hope that the weapons systems of our two nations will never be fired in anger against each other.Even if that day comes when we have to load the ammo, saddle up the choppers, arm the fighters, it should be for the common defence of both our countries.We may be separate politically forevermore, but our destinies are still very much entwined with each other.It might be prudent to treat every single nation as a potential adversary but where do you begin to draw the line and not fall into the trap of paranoia and think we are threatened everyday.Vigilance need not come at the price of paranoia.
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well, that's precisely what i've been trying to put across - that the perceptions of threat arising from our identification of the boundaries of the "self" in relation to the "other" are constructed via the intersubjective social relations.
To put it simply, once we stop thinking of the Malaysians as our enemy, and they do likewise - a reconstitution of the culture characterising our relations would occur. A case in point would be Egypt and Israel who have transformed their relations from that of a Hobbesian culture of perpetual war to a Lockeian culture of mutual respect following the Camp David accords