Time to arrest fall in quality of training of SAF conscripts
-
http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=242808&messageid=1091150906&lp=1091150906
It is the prevailing opinion among many of former conscripts and reservists in the SAF that the level of training,its toughness and its overall quality have decreased,leading to decreased troop quality,disclipline and competence.
This goes not only for physical training but for vocational training as well.I am of the opinion that a shorter time frame of 2 years is insufficient for training people in such vocations as Guards,Commandos or NDU,which are our elite forces.
We need to arrest this fall now and give more discretion to the PTIs,NCOs and PCs in regards to the training,to train their soldiers as they see fit,within limits that will test,harden and challenge our conscripts troops,before we lose our advantage over other armed forces within the region.
We should take a hard look at Swiss,Israeli,Taiwanese and Korean conscription systems and their training methods and adopt them to suit ourselves,to increase the level of proficiency of our troops now and instil some sense of military tradition and pride in our prowess now rather than later.
We are getting to civilised for our own good and I say that the military should go out there and make it perfectly clear to the civilian population that they are not a civilian corporation.They are a military force with the purpose of training soldiers and ensuring their welfare at the minimum as well as minimising the risk of accidents,which are always present.To that end,the training should be tougher and the length of time should be suited to the vocations.
There should also be less emphasis on academic qualifications,for they do not a soldier or leader make,only a scholar,and we already have enough of those as generals.
What I'm suggesting is an overhaul of the military system as a whole and more emphasis on proven abilities such as leadership and combat or peacekeeping experience as a premium for promotion rather than academic qualifications.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
@Singaporeans
Already enlisting next year,probably Guards of Commandos.I'm hoping that all of what I've heard is misinformation,but if not,the SAF seriously needs to toughen the training and make it harder,for example perhaps looking at Russian Spetsnaz training methods and techniques and utilise them to train our Commandos,conscript and regular.
We are surrounded by possible enemies,though friends as well for now,but we should always be prepared,and we need tougher training to increase the overall fortitude and quality of our troops to make up for less numbers while still maintaining the ability to multiply the effect of any of our attacks.Technology only serves as a force multiplier,but it doesn't win you wars.In any case,it is the human element that is more important,as consistently shown by the Israelis in their military history,or closer to home the Vietnamese whp prevailed against the Americans despite being outgunned throughout the war,through guile and guerilla warfare.
We should also consider drafting of women,as it drafting by lottery of select female condidates from the population to serve in command echelons and combat support as well as logistics functions to make up for any manpower losses and to ensure some degree of self-sufficiency and self-reliability.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
btw,if you're wondering,thats my post.I post under the name if Manthor on World Armed Forces Forums. -
are u some army radical or some shit, if u think the conscripts will love the new training regmine u gotta be kidding. Coz most of us dun give a shit, we don't even want to be there. So unless ur the best performing soldier there, please shove it up your ass.
-
I take back my words. I saw the lame topics post by the same person. If you buay tahan want to start flamming I am going to join too.
-
I wonder, sometimes - if people who post messages or subjects in this forum have ever served their National Service in the first place, or served in the military of any other country, if they not from Singapore.
I've done my NS, plus another 11 years in the reserves (in a Guards unit). All my buddies and myself are laughing at such comments. People should, at the very least, serve their time before making such statements. -
Sardaukar think the government have already view all the factors before making consideration.Originally posted by Sardaukar:http://www.network54.com/Forum/thread?forumid=242808&messageid=1091150906&lp=1091150906
It is the prevailing opinion among many of former conscripts and reservists in the SAF that the level of training,its toughness and its overall quality have decreased,leading to decreased troop quality,disclipline and competence.
This goes not only for physical training but for vocational training as well.I am of the opinion that a shorter time frame of 2 years is insufficient for training people in such vocations as Guards,Commandos or NDU,which are our elite forces.
We need to arrest this fall now and give more discretion to the PTIs,NCOs and PCs in regards to the training,to train their soldiers as they see fit,within limits that will test,harden and challenge our conscripts troops,before we lose our advantage over other armed forces within the region.
We should take a hard look at Swiss,Israeli,Taiwanese and Korean conscription systems and their training methods and adopt them to suit ourselves,to increase the level of proficiency of our troops now and instil some sense of military tradition and pride in our prowess now rather than later.
We are getting to civilised for our own good and I say that the military should go out there and make it perfectly clear to the civilian population that they are not a civilian corporation.They are a military force with the purpose of training soldiers and ensuring their welfare at the minimum as well as minimising the risk of accidents,which are always present.To that end,the training should be tougher and the length of time should be suited to the vocations.
There should also be less emphasis on academic qualifications,for they do not a soldier or leader make,only a scholar,and we already have enough of those as generals.
What I'm suggesting is an overhaul of the military system as a whole and more emphasis on proven abilities such as leadership and combat or peacekeeping experience as a premium for promotion rather than academic qualifications.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
@Singaporeans
Already enlisting next year,probably Guards of Commandos.I'm hoping that all of what I've heard is misinformation,but if not,the SAF seriously needs to toughen the training and make it harder,for example perhaps looking at Russian Spetsnaz training methods and techniques and utilise them to train our Commandos,conscript and regular.
We are surrounded by possible enemies,though friends as well for now,but we should always be prepared,and we need tougher training to increase the overall fortitude and quality of our troops to make up for less numbers while still maintaining the ability to multiply the effect of any of our attacks.Technology only serves as a force multiplier,but it doesn't win you wars.In any case,it is the human element that is more important,as consistently shown by the Israelis in their military history,or closer to home the Vietnamese whp prevailed against the Americans despite being outgunned throughout the war,through guile and guerilla warfare.
We should also consider drafting of women,as it drafting by lottery of select female condidates from the population to serve in command echelons and combat support as well as logistics functions to make up for any manpower losses and to ensure some degree of self-sufficiency and self-reliability.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
btw,if you're wondering,thats my post.I post under the name if Manthor on World Armed Forces Forums.
You are too one sided, what you did not view the economic factor. With Defense spending up and economy down, it comes down to the dollars, something need to cut, I guess down to 2 yrs, you cut cost by a lot stuff like food, equipment, clothes, pay ...... etc.
Drafting women ? You will totally impact the economy, birthrate and social issues. Don't think that is a wise move, think long term harm is more.
Sardaukar, first you must have enough money, stable economy, stable birth rate, stable society. Without all these there will not be a country.
Without a country, you can have a strong army, but to do what ? Protect what ?
I think the government have make a correct choice, to ensure that we have stable country 1st, that in term can at long term support a strong army force. -
Of course most of you don't want to be there.Understandable as you don't want to be restricted in your freedom.
However,whether you like it or not,it is your duty and it is inevitable.You either accept it as a part of your reality and change your attitude to make the best of it and think of it as an exposure to the military system,a way to test your limits and challenge yourself,or you can rebel against it and just slack and be an incompetent,inproficient fool who is wasting an opportunity to contribute constructively to the security of society.
As I have said and will reiterate,the armed forces is a military institution with the purpose of protecting the national interest and integrity as well as deter possible foreign intervention.We have succeeded very well in the deterrence arena until now,but with the current social situation,with increasingly educated servicemen,overprotective parents and an increasingly consultative government,the military is in for hard times in maintaining its standards which have dropped.
The main problem from my view is that the military is pandering to a populist government.While it is all very well and fine to consult the population on matters related to civil,cultural,social and economic affairs of the state,we cannot allow such consultation to affect the military.It is the demands of overprotective parents that is degrading the operational capability and proficiency of the individual soldier,thereby affecting their unit.
As a military institution,the SAF has a duty to defend our society,and to do this they have to resort to conscripting from among the civilian population and maintaining them as reservists after a tour of service,to maintain the numbers of an effective fighting force and deterrent force.To that end,it has to train troops that are physically and mentally resilient,a task it succeeded with in the past,thought less so now.This entails training,which has its risks.The responsibility of the SAF as a military institution is to look after the welfare of each individual soldier,for they are the most vital and important elements of the SAF as a whole.In looking after their welfare,they most they can humanly do is to minimise the risks presented in training by and providing medical personnel to treat injuries.Now,the present perception is that they are looking after the welfare of the troops,but at the cost of compromising on operational capability and ability,which should not be the case.A balance has to be struck between the welfare of our soldiers and the operational capability of the SAF.Currently,the balance seems to be skewed in looking after the welfare of the conscripts and troops at the cost of operational ability.
The deaths of our fellow servicemen,while tragic,and preventable,were still accidents,and accidents happen.You can only minimise the chances of them happening.However,due to the political requirements necessitated by the accidents,it has resulted in the imposition of legal limits that hamper and restrict the judgement and authority of PTIs and other commanders as well as trainers in ensuring the maximum possible mental resilience,physical resilience and vocational proficiency of the individual soldier and/or unit is reached.
There needs to be reforms undertaken to curb the further degradation of standards in the SAF and raise standards,and there needs to be a clear position taken by the army in resisting the pressure of the civilian population,to show its authority and to state clearly its role and purpose in Singapore. -
Sardaukar can I ask you a question ?
Have you serve your NS yet ? -
first to bcoy,
if one should comment on NS matters only after they have been through the system, then i guess almost all of us can't vote since we know next to nothing on governing a country. and there are lots of service men whose attitude that the SAF can do without, does that mean their opinions matter if they so decide give them after their term of service. i guess my message is, so long it's well founded, veterans or not, any ideas/input is welcome.
to sardaukar,
broadly, i kinda agreed with what you've said. i believe that 2 years is too short a time for us to train our servicemen to a level of proficiency that will not threaten their own, and their units', survival in time of operation. friends in service have related to me how, from enlistment to posting to units, a serviceman will likely have less than 12 months to work and gel with his mates. and that's in active service. and when they become a NS unit, they will have, at most, 40 days a year to play soldier. I 'm not quite sure how what one was unable to master in 12 mths, one can improve on in (not quite) 40 days out of 365.
as for the case of enlisting women, i don't see the harm. i'm not train in economic but my feeling is that, the current non family-friendly HR practices and general biasness against anyone above 40 years is doing more harm to Singapore's competitiveness than a time-limited uniform service for the fairer sex. -
i guess a 2 years stint as a storeman in NS qualify one to comment on the security development in asia. this have to be a really broad base curriculum.Originally posted by tspg:Sardaukar can I ask you a question ?
Have you serve your NS yet ? -
Dear Fett,Originally posted by fett:i guess a 2 years stint as a storeman in NS qualify one to comment on the security development in asia. this have to be a really broad base curriculum.
I ask Sardaukar the question because most people who have not serve before have the kind of mentality that SG is a small country we are incapable of defending ourselves. We dun survive as a small red dot because people allow us to. We still exist because we are capable of defending ourselves.
Even NSFs think that way also. But the strength of SAF lies in its reserves. We are an integrated army of various services and arms. Modern warfare require fire power and speed. Individually we may not be tough but we can rely on our collective strength to win a fight if neccessary. -
From an initial point of view, I do agree that the current conscripts are getting a better lifestyle than their predecessors. Your conclusion of them having less fighting spirit is also justifiable, given the amount of people who keng at any chance they get.
You should understand that most of the kids who go in are often disgruntled and not so motivated. They feel that there's nothing to fight for in this period of peace, exhibiting the sense of complacency as a result. Many of them probably have the notion of desertion at the first sign of trouble. Hence the need to fill a survey form on your very first day of enlistment.
The people who've actually gone through the combat training can tell you that there may be room for improvement, but majority would agree that there is no need for us to go back to the heavy regimental days of "Mexican" instructors. The more important question you should be asking is:
Would YOU fight when the need arise? -
That may be the case of NSFs but they are not frontline troops in the first place.A mature NS unit that has been training together for 4-5 years is tight knitted and cohesive.It has been said before that one of the greatest assets of the SAF is the bond and trust between the men.
I will fight if the need arises. I believe many others would. -
Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:
Unsure what you mean by Mexican Instructors but coming from a different era from most of military nuts members, I can say that while there was widespread abuse in the 70-90's. It is no better or worst now.
[b]The people who've actually gone through the combat training can tell you that there may be room for improvement, but majority would agree that there is no need for us to go back to the heavy regimental days of "Mexican" instructors.b]
Life as footsolider is tough (I am a Pioneer NCO with 2PDF). Don't get any ideas that the PDF is "senang". Our basic operational requirements are sufficient to make many a grown man cry, much worst than my active day (when I was in infantry).
In ICT yr 2, we constructed the Battlion Command Post after some 48hrs non-stop work. Slept a grand total of 2 hours over that same period. Then went on to build barbed wire emplacements as well as a mixed minefield. That was just at the start of the exercise.
Only way it could have been done was because we had to be mentally tough. This is as a result of our BMT being a bit like the scenes from "full metal jacket" (go see the movie).
Always believed that being mentally solid was most valuable part from the rough and tumble days of my NSF. This may be lacking nowadays, I could be wrong. Even with the best technology, the last man left standing is really "king of the hill" in more ways than you can ever reliaze from playing all those first player shoot-em-up games. In real life you don't get spawn again after a 30 sec countdown. -
4 Years NCC LAND..more den enuf
-
lol..you're kidding aren't youOriginally posted by SibeiSuayKia:4 Years NCC LAND..more den enuf
-
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/452157.htmlOriginally posted by baer:Unsure what you mean by Mexican Instructors but coming from a different era from most of military nuts members, I can say that while there was widespread abuse in the 70-90's. It is no better or worst now.
Interesting article brought to my attention in the new forum. -
Yayay, go ahead and stop NSF if neccessary.
I mean, then the govt can employ more rregulars....
Waaaoo...
-
the more harse the training become, the more the soldiers will 'keng'
its like dao gao yi chi mo gao yi zhang . -
Am serving next year,either starting December 2004 or January 2005.Originally posted by tspg:Sardaukar can I ask you a question ?
Have you serve your NS yet ? -
Way to go men!Originally posted by tspg:That may be the case of NSFs but they are not frontline troops in the first place.A mature NS unit that has been training together for 4-5 years is tight knitted and cohesive.It has been said before that one of the greatest assets of the SAF is the bond and trust between the men.
I will fight if the need arises. I believe many others would.
Although me already downgraded and am on NSPC list. But if the time really comes and so long as my index finger is still working... just pass me a rifle and rounds.. MG or SAW also can..
-
I see.If I were to put it mildly, your points are views immature and you are very ill-informed. Your time will be better spent studying instead of posting here.Originally posted by Sardaukar:Am serving next year,either starting December 2004 or January 2005.
If I were put it in a nasty manner, your are a toopid idiot living in lalaland too much warcraft burned your blain ? You think NS is boy scouting ? You need to sweat 2 years before you earn the right to speculate and comment here boy.
Your term has just been reduce to 2 years. See if you would want to train 2.5 yrs then. BTW you going to volunteer for CDO or GDS ? HAHAHA ! Earn your stripes first before you come here to talk. -
Well,so far you guys missed out a essential point.Can you take a look at how our Military is run?Its like a friggin' company.Even OCS and SAFTI MI are known as OCS Corporate and SAFTI Corporate.My goodness,the ministry of defence is supposed to be a WAR FIGHTING institution and not a goddamned company.How is it possible to ascertain a certain credibility of the armed forces if you were to treat it like a company?Why not simply hire a mercernary armed forces to help defend our country?
Why is NS being reduced by 6 mths?Simply because its simply does not make Dollars and Cents for the Ministry.AS such, service term is being reduced.And to those who always say that they are NSF/ Reservists/Regulars, please, do not show how much you know simply because you have served.This is an analytical theme.The government of S'pore like to privatise so many things,I mean I won't be surprised if one day, the military will become privatised. -
couldn't agree more!!!!!Originally posted by baer:Unsure what you mean by Mexican Instructors but coming from a different era from most of military nuts members, I can say that while there was widespread abuse in the 70-90's. It is no better or worst now.
Life as footsolider is tough (I am a Pioneer NCO with 2PDF). Don't get any ideas that the PDF is "senang". Our basic operational requirements are sufficient to make many a grown man cry, much worst than my active day (when I was in infantry).
In ICT yr 2, we constructed the Battlion Command Post after some 48hrs non-stop work. Slept a grand total of 2 hours over that same period. Then went on to build barbed wire emplacements as well as a mixed minefield. That was just at the start of the exercise.
Only way it could have been done was because we had to be mentally tough. This is as a result of our BMT being a bit like the scenes from "full metal jacket" (go see the movie).
Always believed that being mentally solid was most valuable part from the rough and tumble days of my NSF. This may be lacking nowadays, I could be wrong. Even with the best technology, the last man left standing is really "king of the hill" in more ways than you can ever reliaze from playing all those first player shoot-em-up games. In real life you don't get spawn again after a 30 sec countdown.
I'm a (NS) inf pioneer spec myself.. and i must say... building a BCP in 48hrs is damn solid!
when the going gets tough, only your mind can get you through...
and to sardaukar, since you are going to NS soon and also like to have super duper tough training... volunteer to go commando lah.. then go join ranger and SOF course after that... I hope those are up to your standards.. hehehe
-
Dear Sardaukar, go back and study some. And stop dreaming, if u ar so onz, sign on the Army for the rest of ur life. Then u will know the meaning of "fighting for freedom"
-
Leave the comments to those who have served.
While you were making this comments in the comfort of your home.
Someone in Lim Chu Kang, Thailand, Brunei, Taiwan is doing a night walk for dawn attack.
Someone is missing his family back home and his girlfriend.
Someone is doing extra guard duty.
Someone is looking forward to the weekend.
Someone would rather sleep than clean the mortar, Bionix, GPMG.
Someone has just packed up after wasting many hours at the range and picking up empty cartridges.
Someone has to go to the ammo dump while the others are back in camp.
Join the army as a regular if you're interested in it.