Time to arrest fall in quality of training of SAF conscripts
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Sign on but draw NSF pay because RSN need the money for expansion.Originally posted by flayn80:Dear Sardaukar, go back and study some. And stop dreaming, if u ar so onz, sign on the Army for the rest of ur life. Then u will know the meaning of "fighting for freedom"
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this list will never end.Originally posted by Temujin:Leave the comments to those who have served.
While you were making this comments in the comfort of your home.
Someone in Lim Chu Kang, Thailand, Brunei, Taiwan is doing a night walk for dawn attack.
Someone is missing his family back home and his girlfriend.
Someone is doing extra guard duty.
Someone is looking forward to the weekend.
Someone would rather sleep than clean the mortar, Bionix, GPMG.
Someone has just packed up after wasting many hours at the range and picking up empty cartridges.
Someone has to go to the ammo dump while the others are back in camp.
Join the army as a regular if you're interested in it.
and dont forget all members of the home team doing similar duties too. -
Come on guys, give him a break. He does have a point there. However misinformed, we as "veterans" should be there to correct such misconceptions instead of putting him down. The kid's just enthusiastic, thats all.
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Wuming78,
What list ?
He's trying to worldpeace here.Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:Come on guys, give him a break. He does have a point there. However misinformed, we as "veterans" should be there to correct such misconceptions instead of putting him down. The kid's just enthusiastic, thats all. -
At first I tot the same as you then I see the RSN post and search his past postings wa lau all so lame one. My hard earned money pay taxes then use to pay for new toys to expand RSN ? SG already spending BILLIONS on defence each year. To me that's a lot liao pls spent extra cash on poor peasants not buy new toys. We scold him for his own good. After he go serve come back he will create better posting liao.Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:Come on guys, give him a break. He does have a point there. However misinformed, we as "veterans" should be there to correct such misconceptions instead of putting him down. The kid's just enthusiastic, thats all.
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i agree.Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:Come on guys, give him a break. He does have a point there. However misinformed, we as "veterans" should be there to correct such misconceptions instead of putting him down. The kid's just enthusiastic, thats all.
and theres nothing wrong wif being enthusiastic rite?
in the end, all of us have different interests. and we definitely need pasionate people in the defense of our country.
those who do not wish to be in the forefront of this business can contribute by sharing personal experiences and knowledge and clarifying doubts.
thus the beauty of this open and anonymous platform as a Knowledge Management tool. -
wats a KM tool?Originally posted by wuming78:i agree.
and theres nothing wrong wif being enthusiastic rite?
in the end, all of us have different interests. and we definitely need pasionate people in the defense of our country.
those who do not wish to be in the forefront of this business can contribute by sharing personal experiences and knowledge and clarifying doubts.
thus the beauty of this open and anonymous platform as a KM tool. -
paiseh! knowledge management tool. meaning it facilitates the sharing of knowledge and experience and learning amongst the people in a group.Originally posted by NathanG5:wats a KM tool? -
oh ok..thanxOriginally posted by wuming78:paiseh! knowledge management tool. meaning it facilitates the sharing of knowledge and experience and learning amongst the people in a group. -
Don't forget the workers, service people, if without them , where to generate money for the army.Originally posted by wuming78:this list will never end.
and dont forget all members of the home team doing similar duties too. -
No, I'm looking at it from both sides, instead of sticking to one. So what's wrong with world peace?Originally posted by Temujin:He's trying to worldpeace here. -
KM eh?Seen that a lot in MES.Have a Knights' Guild there too.Originally posted by wuming78:i agree.
and theres nothing wrong wif being enthusiastic rite?
in the end, all of us have different interests. and we definitely need pasionate people in the defense of our country.
those who do not wish to be in the forefront of this business can contribute by sharing personal experiences and knowledge and clarifying doubts.
thus the beauty of this open and anonymous platform as a Knowledge Management tool. -
The only problem with being over enthusiatic, is to be salar informed and start ranting and raving about shiny new toys. What happens if this gundu grow up and become civil servant reponsible for policy decisions?Originally posted by wuming78:i agree.
and theres nothing wrong wif being enthusiastic rite?
in the end, all of us have different interests. and we definitely need pasionate people in the defense of our country.
Die lah, wet dreams galore. What we need is ear to the ground, nose in the mud and may both brain cells working at the same time.
When we get the flag waving mummy's boys meet the likes of RSM Tiger Hong we have serious problems. Neither side know wat to make of each other ;worst still cannot solve problem. How to train our NSF to fight war lor (wat you think this thread is about DUH). No need to worry about winning, just to stop the whinning problem sudah.
I've seen posts about buy buy more bigger, better, badder bloody bladder.
Nothing about clarity of mission, focus on the game, strengthen the fibre. What most of posts here have is typical Singapore solution, spend more money can solve all our problems. See "Starship Troopers" when the blonde argue why learn how to fight hand to hand when got automated machines etc. Instructor asks him to put his hand on target and throws a knife to pin Blonde's hand. Moral of lesson, machines are no use if you cannot push the button. -
Actually, believe you me, majority of the reserve are serving for the sake of serving, to complete their reserve cycles. Sure, the military tasks are on par with the active regular units, but everyone must bear in mind that, regardless of the 'fact' that we are well-trained and well-led when compared with the regional militaries, we are still a citizen army. The long-term disadvantage of this when it was first started all off is that, there will be attitude problems among the ranks and files, and even extending to the officer corps.Originally posted by tspg:Dear Fett,
I ask Sardaukar the question because most people who have not serve before have the kind of mentality that SG is a small country we are incapable of defending ourselves. We dun survive as a small red dot because people allow us to. We still exist because we are capable of defending ourselves.
Even NSFs think that way also. But the strength of SAF lies in its reserves. We are an integrated army of various services and arms. Modern warfare require fire power and speed. Individually we may not be tough but we can rely on our collective strength to win a fight if neccessary.
Such a wasting disease in the psyche of such citizen soldiers actually pervade into the regular forces as well, since they are bogged down to double up as training cadres mostly for the reserve lot. So, do not place too much confidence in such a citizen army formation like ours to win a war. However, we will not be done in if we radically change or at least revert to the traditional methods as mentioned by the originator of this topic.
And, the readers should never stifle anyone here regarding his or her seniority or level of experience. Much worse, to add sarcasm to their stifling remarks at that, for that matter. -
Actually that's not a bad idea.....Originally posted by storywolf:Drafting women ? You will totally impact the economy, birthrate and social issues. Don't think that is a wise move, think long term harm is more.
Train them for BMT and nursing....over time, the civil defence capabilities of SG will improve.... -
What matters in our armed forces today is not the amount of new-fangled toys we have, but how professional our regulars and NSFs are.Professionalism plays a big role in ensuring that the army remains as an effective institution in times of crisises, able to deal with threats in a capable manner, unlike all our common "army cock-up" experience.In the case of regulars, they should undergo a paradigm shift in their attitudes, instead of thinking that the Army is a rice bowl which will never crack, or should I say , harder to crack than the private sector.Many regulars sign on with the mindset that the risk element is low, and that Singapore might never go to war in their lifetime.When you have such attitudes amongst the professional soldiers, their thinking will infect the entire corps and slowly work its way to every nook and cranny.
In my NSF experience, I have seen us conscripts, be it men, specs or officers, being tasked a great deal more to do in our daily jobs, much more than the seniors.Why might this be so?Some may say IT revolution, the "lau cheks" may be quite unfamiliar with the new toys the Army is implementing, (remember that they are usually O-level holders or below, for the case of the Warrant Officers, which are mainly the leaders on the ground).Perhaps because of this inadequacy. they make use of us to perform their tasks.It's okay, we are under orders.However, what irks me is the main attitude amongst them that they think its their God-given right and an entitlement for them to have helpers like us, working on stuff that they should be working on.What is needed is appreciation and acknowledgment that we did a good job and we provided assistance and support.This is not a crusade against the senior specialists as a whole, but I'm trying to point out that many of us feel used, and that's where the morose and despondancy appears, when we do a great deal and we are not recognised.So much for ISO, MEA and all that bull, because if you were to go down to the ground, you will realise that all these are just paid lip-service and the Army , exemplified by the narcissists that have their insidious grip on the NSFs, demands commercial standards of production but pays and rewards in a 13th century penury system.
The old generation will pass on soon enough.In order for the rot to be stemmed, we should inculcate proper values in our younger regulars and have in place a stringent psychometrical evaluation and tests to analyse a prospective applicant's mind and character.We should not just accept any fit Tom, Dick or Harry.An motivated smaller and educated force is much better than a large but unmotivated and parasitical force.We owe the taxpayers this much.Let it sink in or we might have a crisis of faith in our green hands. -
I agree with previous post that
motivated smaller and educated force is much better than a large but unmotivated and parasitical force
If you ever met the RINCOS graduates (My SAFINCOS inctructors were last batch of RINCOS) then you will surely shoot yourself in the balls first!
They (Regular Inf NCS school) were pri school drop outs. Somthing like SAF Boys schools of late 80's (not sure present equal). Great LURRP or Ranger fodder but siao and see bay 'gilat'. They took 9 months to earn their corporal stripes (this is before the massive "everybody become 3SGT" happy days are here time). Everything they learn by doing over and over again. Very tough, they can do tactical casevac from Tekong East jetty to present BMT school (about 6km). You try 200m, can die already.
I have met many a SSG, MSG or 2WO who die die cannot beat the clock to be promoted before age cut off time. Same same for CPT and 12 yrs LTA (believe it there are many hidden in funny corners).
The only reason still (then) in SAF, cannot survive outside.
In new army, thinking army, sorry no place for them. Maybe many "keng kar liao". Some even more hopless than my grandmother ("why must do this that way, because always do that like this lah" is the only song they know).
Mind you it takes brute force to lift a section of the Bailey bridge (about 250kg), can you do with only 6 men for each section, putting all the two hundred fifty plus pieces within standard time, in the rain at night?
Yah lar we got iguana, two person press button also can. But some things like your triple con (600m), minefield (500m), 4,000+ sandbags for your BCP cannot be mechcanized. Assault boat PT another siong story.
We also cannot have pasley coordinated metrosexuals in the mud when the enemy are at the gates, how then? -
Absolutely nothing wrong with that.....just that it will never happen...Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:No, I'm looking at it from both sides, instead of sticking to one. So what's wrong with world peace?
I'm not trying to be a real pessimist here, just that if you consider the history of mankind, there has never been a time where there is no war of some kind, guess its just the rule of nature, only the fittest survive....
On a serious note, the world will only become peaceful if every country attains the kind of economic and cultural maturity of a first world level, and thats a very wishful thinking on my part!!! -
Human nature, no matter how idealistic the head is about getting to the objective, the body will want to chao keng.
Duty aside, think about it, if you are paied peanuts and burn tons of time and effort to serve, what motivational factors are there to motivate us conscripts, rookies or instructors, most of who are doing so hardly of their own free will, not to chao some keng?
Think about how much the SAF 7 core values are really embraced by the people in the SAF, you have your answer. -
Yes.The onus is on the regulars to uphold the values.You cannot realistically expect the NSFs to shoulder the whole army.As a regular, you made the choice to sign the dotted line, you jolly well live up to your profession and not make use of conscripts to do your job.That is the most pathetic of actions and is also why we all say "Army buey kan."
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If it's anything to add, I notice plenty of the NSF recruits are far better soldiers, in ability and attitude then the regulars, so there you go for professionalism.
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I do think Sardaukar is out of his depth in his "assessment" - sorry - but if any of today's NSF's & NSmen can pass their IPPT, SOC, ATP, UC, vocation/leadership courses, etc. & then help his unit to RECON 1 status in operational readiness, I'll pledge brotherhood with him anytime. Never mind the actual nature of training received; ditto 2.5 years or lesser.
The previous generations needed a different standard & hence went for - I think this is the key word here - tougher regimentation due to the pre-enlistment personalities of their eras' conscipts (a lot of school dropouts & anti-social indulgences). You know, the whole character bit about tearing the civilian down & building a soldier in its place. Nowadays we're still doing that as a principle, but there's also less collective resistance, prejudice or ambivalence from the participants.
In fact, I rate the current SAF draftees/reservists as very carte blanche, prodded by finely-tuned progams like Enhanced BMT & IPPT window & progressive RT. In some ways, IMHO we've moved on even from the '80s-'90s type of positive-reinforcement policies, & that was in itself very different from the true "tekan", borderline-abusive punishment approach of the late 60s-'70s. -
We are trying to find the balance between cost-effectiveness, after all we are using tax money, and the fact that conscripts will never be as motivated as someone who genuinely loves the army as a career, not as a hiding place from a scary world.How do we go on from here?
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ha, minor....limbeh 23 liao ,served NS....its a place where boys like YOU get trained into guys like US....its a great experience, less those unfair stuff blahblahblah...end of the day, it makes u tougher, more on the mental and thinking sideOriginally posted by Sardaukar:Am serving next year,either starting December 2004 or January 2005. -
Jan 2005 eh..Looking forward to clear leave liao.ORD loh!!!