Time to arrest fall in quality of training of SAF conscripts
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Originally posted by meander:
Thanks for answering my questions.
First of all, want to know, are you from Singapore ? Have you served in a singaporean combat unit before ?
Because it's common knowledge that in most SAF exercises, the "aggressor" or the "enemy" [b]ALWAYS loses. No matter how well the aggressor fights.
In that particular exercise in Taiwan, we were a battalion sized aggressor/enemy force fighting against a joint Taiwanese/Singaporean brigade sized force. My company's objective just happened to be attacked by the taiwanese.
Now let's describe my coy objective. My platoon's position was in depth behind the rest of the coy right on top the hill. Directly below in front of us was some damn steep ground with ZERO cover. Further out in front was some slightly flatter ground where the rest of the platoons in the coy were deployed. Beyond them, was more steep ground. Behind my platoon, and the entire company was vegetation. All around the objective was some 50-60 coils of con-wire. 50+ coils might not seem like a lot to some, but we had to carry all of them uphill as the tonner could not ascend the steep hill. And further more, we aint engineers that specialise in obstacle construction.
How did the taiwanese attack our objective ? Right from the front in broad DAYLIGHT. We could see them coming with our binos, and simply re-deployed all our weapons to face the slope. Then they came running up our slope while our GPMG/SAWs/GLs were firing in their faces. By the time they reached us, the reserve platoon, their numbers would have been seriously attritted or more likely totally wiped out by my fellow platoons below.
The irony was that we were defending on THEIR LAND which they should know better. They should have seen that the "correct", but a hell lot more siong way would be to flank and take the top of the hill from behind through all the vegetation FIRST. Then attack downslope. We would have known they were coming, but with their larger numbers, and the vegetation as cover, there would nothing much we could do to stop them.
That's why i made the remark that we "lost" and that the taiwanese used outdated tactics as they tried to win coming straight from the front with a larger force. Even if they did take our objective, it would be after some really serious casualties suffered by them.
Having said all that, I found that the average taiwanese soldier were rather well motivated and were in general, rather fit. They could actually run up our objective !! IMO half my platoon would peng midway as the weather was damn hot. And furthermore they were smiling and joking after the attack. So if anything was wrong with them, it was the tactics they used. So, it might been some ploy by the taiwanese to deceive us into thinking they have a crap army ...
As for mainland China soldiers, I have no comment as I have never seen them in action, nor have i fought with/against them.[/b]
I appreciate it very much.
You said that the Taiwanese outnumber your company. How many times does the Taiwanese force outnumber your force? Outnumbered by 1 to 20 or 1 to 30 times
Sorry i don't know much about military stuff. But thank you for explaining so much to me! -
Sardaukar, heard of defense budget? Too much of it constitutes to a lower NI.
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Sardaukar, heard of defense budget? Too much of it constitutes to a lower NI.
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I stand corrected on my last post: it's Kenting (located in the southern tip) rather than Keelung (which is more on the other tip). Jacky Wu's travel-makan show showcased the vincinity last nite; the picturesque surroundings brough back memories, esp. the shorelines.
Funny enough, I remember this hawker van - one of those that usually trail SAF units there selling food/beverages, pirated toys, porno playing cards, etc. - strangely already parking there as we arrive, smack uphill off the beaten track. These entrepreuers seemed remarkably well-informed - they warned us of the impending typoon around 10 days early, which we attributed to them possessing radios or portable TVs - but 300km or so from our previous deployment grounds in the middle of Taiwan? The joke went around that he must be an undercover agent or something .... -
Originally posted by Moxie:Funny enough, I remember this hawker van - one of those that usually trail SAF units there selling food/beverages, pirated toys, porno playing cards, etc. - strangely already parking there as we arrive, smack uphill off the beaten track. These entrepreuers seemed remarkably well-informed - they warned us of the impending typoon around 10 days early, which we attributed to them possessing radios or portable TVs - but 300km or so from our previous deployment grounds in the middle of Taiwan? The joke went around that he must be an undercover agent or something ....
more than 1 haha we used to call them REN ZE. The info they get are from the driver telling where we will be next stop. You dun see them come and you dun see them leave.
The best van to be around during sudden change in the weather is the one selling hot meat ball soup -
Someone say new tech, new something something. Whatever new 'TOYS' or 3G we are heading to, it still goes down to the man on the ground.
Be it 20mths, 24mths or 30mths of NS, if no one is there to impart the knowledge of a basic soldiering skill, I give you 30 years also no point.
SAF had being saying thinking soldier for long time or my time than till now but how many thinking soldier did we see?
I had seen not much. Example during my last 2 year service in ATEC as OPFOR. During an attack we like to take out the PL SGT 1st, Sect Comd, OC, PC. Let 4get the office 1st. When ever a Sect Comd is down, I will just see a section of sotong, lost dun know what to do next, no one take over comd. WHY? Thanks whoever up there we are just having ATEC Ex.
By just going up a level, I see a PL of sotong.
Old regular are leaving, new one are not motivated how to have quality training to the men? I remember a quote something goes like this:"What we lost out in Quantity, we will make it up in Quality" It was in the old SAFINCO and if I am not wrong, it was said by LKY.
Yup, we make it up in the hardware quality and forget the man, the operator quality. -
You have made a very good point there. Man will also be men they will just wait for orders. It's the NCO's who will make the difference because they are the backbone of the army. When the regulars left, the NSFs who were given local rank to fill their place but most simply cannot make it. I think SAF should seriously do something about the departure of these old regulars.Originally posted by Joshua1975:Someone say new tech, new something something. Whatever new 'TOYS' or 3G we are heading to, it still goes down to the man on the ground.
Be it 20mths, 24mths or 30mths of NS, if no one is there to impart the knowledge of a basic soldiering skill, I give you 30 years also no point.
SAF had being saying thinking soldier for long time or my time than till now but how many thinking soldier did we see?
I had seen not much. Example during my last 2 year service in ATEC as OPFOR. During an attack we like to take out the PL SGT 1st, Sect Comd, OC, PC. Let 4get the office 1st. When ever a Sect Comd is down, I will just see a section of sotong, lost dun know what to do next, no one take over comd. WHY? Thanks whoever up there we are just having ATEC Ex.
By just going up a level, I see a PL of sotong.
Old regular are leaving, new one are not motivated how to have quality training to the men? I remember a quote something goes like this:"What we lost out in Quantity, we will make it up in Quality" It was in the old SAFINCO and if I am not wrong, it was said by LKY.
Yup, we make it up in the hardware quality and forget the man, the operator quality. -
That how you look at the menOriginally posted by tspg:You have made a very good point there. Man will also be men they will just wait for orders. It's the NCO's who will make the difference because they are the backbone of the army. When the regulars left, the NSFs who were given local rank to fill their place but most simply cannot make it. I think SAF should seriously do something about the departure of these old regulars.
That how you train your men... wait for order!!!
Thinking soldier are to react to situation and not wait for order. During the assault, sect comd got KIA, section 2IC are to take over, 2IC down than group IC take over and complete, over run the enemy and not wait for order. wait down there will just be sitting duck.
maybe read againOriginally posted by Joshua1975:
many are very self motivated and has a good job done thinking, a job satisfaction feelling... how long can one go on just base on self motivation without any recognition from the top.
SAF had being saying thinking soldier for long time or my time than till now but how many thinking soldier did we see?
I had seen not much. Example during my last 2 year service in ATEC as OPFOR. During an attack we like to take out the PL SGT 1st, Sect Comd, OC, PC. Let 4get the office 1st. When ever a Sect Comd is down, I will just see a section of sotong, lost dun know what to do next, no one take over comd. WHY? Thanks whoever up there we are just having ATEC Ex.
By just going up a level, I see a PL of sotong.
Old regular are leaving, new one are not motivated how to have quality training to the men? I remember a quote something goes like this:"What we lost out in Quantity, we will make it up in Quality" It was in the old SAFINCO and if I am not wrong, it was said by LKY.
Yup, we make it up in the hardware quality and forget the man, the operator quality. -
Hmmm.... when the men dun take any action there could be two possibilities
1 They are poorly train really dun know what to do.
2 Simply bo-chap dun want to take over resposibilities.
Hopefully its no 2. At least in an actual battle where it is kill or be killed, somebody with the ability will stand up and organised the fight. -
Shi Si Chow Ying Xiong ~ situation make heroOriginally posted by tspg:Hopefully its no 2. At least in an actual battle where it is kill or be killed, somebody with the ability will stand up and organised the fight. -
super off topic ... but .. I LOVE THE NINJA VANS !!! who needs combat rations ...
btw, the PS is trained to take over the PC. So when the PC is down it's still not that bad as the reserve sec-com will take over PS roles.
It's when the sec-coms in FRONT, those right in the firefight, that get killed that chaos happens. Man blur liao can kan cheong and cross fire etc etc.
But the most impt man has to be the OC (although it sounds damn obvious). Why? Because OC gets orders from CO to execute the overall Battalion plan. Once the OC is down, the 2IC (usually with the 84 team) is too far to take over immediately. During which the PCs can lose their sense of direction, or fail to execute impt last minute orders, causing the entire bn mission to fail.
And that makes the 2 OC runners damn important people too. -
I share the same viewpoint as above.Originally posted by tspg:Hmmm.... when the men dun take any action there could be two possibilities
1 They are poorly train really dun know what to do.
2 Simply bo-chap dun want to take over resposibilities.
Hopefully its no 2. At least in an actual battle where it is kill or be killed, somebody with the ability will stand up and organised the fight.
We have the brains, just not in the right places. Our officers are taught (rather browbeaten) in OCS to obey orders by example and to give orders within the confines of their given orders from above. Necessary if you want to storm "hamburger hill" type objective. discipline is important, never doubt that.
However we all have the "Bo chap" attitude to soldering. My own men (sect 2 pioneer platoon XX SIR) are good. We work like dogs when on excercise (27 hours straight digging BCP), drink the mess dry during last in-camp but are never oblivious to the fact that, when war comes, the price to be paid will be in blood. Our PC can be 'blur' at times. Good at solving technical issues like placement and tonnage of TNT to use (yes, we count in 100x kg), but can be 'see bay blur' when come to motivation or nose in mud issues (no offence intended). Our PS is ranger reject, some sect cmdr better than others. When the balloon goes up we will be there, count on it.
In all honesty, no one (except our gung ho CSM) has burning desire to do more than what our SAF 100 requires. Come war, some will run, many will fall but from the rest we will get our act together and win the war. Just how many of us will be left standing and how much damage is done to the enemy should be the main and ultimately only thing to keep the sighting post on.