21st Rapid Deployment Division
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Is there a mistake with the strength of the division you have stated for the 25th? 100,000 for 25th Division.(with only 5 brigade)?
Anyway, anyone starting any discussion about the Combined Arm Division organisation in Singapore? -
You from 25th DIV? If not why not you go back to post 1 read again?Originally posted by Ritterkreuz:Is there a mistake with the strength of the division you have stated for the 25th? 100,000 for 25th Division.(with only 5 brigade)?
Anyway, anyone starting any discussion about the Combined Arm Division organisation in Singapore? -
Correct. We have 42nd SAR, ? SAR (equipped with AMX-10 vehicles) Divisional Artillery (SA units equipped with 105mm light howitzer) and today we have more which that all I can say and the above unit are not foot soldier. But still we can't ask the CDO to operate something which they have never done b4 and not to say to change the whole SOP they have being using.Originally posted by gary1910:I tot of that too.
All airborne troops dun have to be all foot soldlier.
They could be operating the air-droppable armoured asset like the Russian BMD-1,BMD-3 or the German Wiesel.
Now there is one NSF bn, and a NS Bn which is still within 1-6 ICTs, the older NS Bn which will be fully converted to a fully airborne armour Bn say in 6-10 ICTs.
Let's say is a fully Wiesel Bn, armed with 20mm cannon, Spike ,SAM variant of the Wiesel 1/2 AFV. For more firepower , maybe even with M8 Thunderbolt.
Therefore , this Bn will be less strenuous as they will air drop w/o fullpack, all their the rest of equipment will be in the air-dropped veh. And they will fight in their veh , supporting the fitter two Bn.
So in way still fully utilised combat fit commando(28-33 y.o.) in a less strenuous role & at the same time give the strike trooper more firepower.
We are a combine arm now, I am sure lion02 are in one of the DIV, may not be 21 or 25 but your coy will or may break up into PL level and att to the 3 Bde in the DIV and within the Bde will or may break up again into smaller group.Originally posted by lion02:than that would be an airborne armoured unit, not commando type unit.
both operate differently.
Agreed, that why chinook come inOriginally posted by gary1910:Yup, an airborne combined arms type quick strike operation when all three Bn operate together.
Thus airborne Bde, something like 82nd or 101st.
Also correct. Guards was to be train in Airborne as well and not just Heli borne but due to some 'problem' it KIV.Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):i think we are using the heli borne unit as airborne......still rapid deployment what...
Just to refresh
21st Rapid Deployment Division
(1 brigade is air mobile & 1 brigade is amphibious)
Div HQ
7th SIB (1st Guards, 2nd Guards, 3rd Guards)
13th SIB (three Guards battalions)
15th SIB (three Guards battalions)
42nd SAR, ? SAR
(equipped with AMX-10 vehicles)
Divisional Artillery
(SA units equipped with 105mm light howitzer)
21st Signal Bn
21st DISCOM (Transportation Bn + Supply & Maintenance Bn)
18th SADA (equipped with Mistral SAM)
Supported by Army Combat Engineers Group (bridging engineers), Air Force 120 Sqn, Navy 191 Sqn & 195 Sqn
Note: Guards (battalion size) = Elite infantry trained in heli-borne and amphibious warfare. 7th SIB is an active Guards brigade while 13th SIB and 15th SIB are NS man units. -
For those who claim that SAF/ Mindef do not answer to the Parliment, give yourself clap on the back. Its true, SAF/ Mindef doesn't have to but the defence budget is still presented to the house during CLOSE DOOR sections.
As for the answering to our "friendly" neighbours, when SAF purchsed the attack-helicopter with long bow gear, our "friendly" neighbours made a big hooha over the issue saying S'pore was being aggressive & even send a diplomatic letter to request an explaination from S'pore. Of course, it was settle with diplomatic respond that the attack-helicopters would not be station in S'pore during peace-time, pre-911.
So, its not that S'pore has to but rather it will.
True, many things related to the army is not reveal to the public, so how many want to reveal it here? Be very careful, we are just gossiping here, so don't take my words to seriously. Whether or not I'm S'porean, doesn't matter does it? S'pore is multi-culture, multi-raced, etc.
As for some1 mentioning that 21RDD is already active, personally I don't care, but in case you might be mistaken, could it be the ADF or the combine arms formation? Then again, best not to mention it.
The truth maybe out there but its sure as hell not safe to talk about it. Unless any of you like an invitation to a tea party at that mystical "bird" place.
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That is why I said that we do need to have another dimension in our RDD.Originally posted by Joshua1975:Also correct. Guards was to be train in Airborne as well and not just Heli borne but due to some 'problem' it KIV.
At this moment, we hv Amphi ,heli borne but no airborne.
As for armour asset (AMX-10s) are all marine variant, no air/heli borne variant.
( Maybe we do have but classified)
What if the our amphi armour asset cannot be used due to the nearest coastal area are heavily guarded or simply the area of operation is too far inland, far away from the coast thus making amphi landing not feasible ?
And I think we only have 12 Chinooks & currently maybe able to carry the older M113, but to have more we might need to airdrop them using C-130s and the operators of those armour asset might have to be airdrop too.
Thus , an airborne element is needed. -
We have airborne unit and we do not need or I should say we have no such area for a LOW drop of 'tanks' in our AO. Learn more about Airdrop, DZ before making such comments. Furthermore we dun operate in that mannerOriginally posted by gary1910:That is why I said that we do need to have another dimension in our RDD.
At this moment, we hv Amphi ,heli borne but no airborne.
As for armour asset (AMX-10s) are all marine variant, no air/heli borne variant.
( Maybe we do have but classified)
What if the our amphi armour asset cannot be used due to the nearest coastal area are heavily guarded thus making amphi landing not feasible?
And I think we only have 12 Chinooks & currently maybe able to carry the older M113, but to have more we might need to airdrop them using C-130s and the operators of those armour asset might have to be airdrop too.
Thus , an airborne element is needed.
Cannot do a coastal landing? Who will land blind? You thinking too much about D-day
What is a 'beach head' for and where are the NDU? By air or by sea, your comment seem shallow. -
Not from 25th Div. But just surprised by the figure of 100,000 associated with a Div and 5 brigades. I guess I did not take in the word operation reserves.Originally posted by Joshua1975:You from 25th DIV? If not why not you go back to post 1 read again? -
Using Chinooks to carry M113s? I don't think so.Originally posted by gary1910:That is why I said that we do need to have another dimension in our RDD.
At this moment, we hv Amphi ,heli borne but no airborne.
As for armour asset (AMX-10s) are all marine variant, no air/heli borne variant.
( Maybe we do have but classified)
What if the our amphi armour asset cannot be used due to the nearest coastal area are heavily guarded or simply the area of operation is too far inland, far away from the coast thus making amphi landing not feasible ?
And I think we only have 12 Chinooks & currently maybe able to carry the older M113, but to have more we might need to airdrop them using C-130s and the operators of those armour asset might have to be airdrop too.
Thus , an airborne element is needed.
Is there a real need for airborne infantry like the Malaysian RDF brigade? What are the objectives of such a unit compared to an airmobile (heliborne) unit in local context? -
we're in one of the div alright, but att to the Bde... it's the job for BRC, different scope.Originally posted by Joshua1975:We are a combine arm now, I am sure lion02 are in one of the DIV, may not be 21 or 25 but your coy will or may break up into PL level and att to the 3 Bde in the DIV and within the Bde will or may break up again into smaller group.
and we don't work in PL level. -
Maybe... I keep to myself about your ops. I am in oso in one of the div but directly under one of the Bde and my is break up from Coy to PL than into team levelOriginally posted by lion02:we're in one of the div alright, but att to the Bde... it's the job for BRC, different scope.
and we don't work in PL level. unless doing drop, if not we are on our own liao. -
No such area ! maybe , we could do low level airdrop on the highway , this is certainly a large enough clearing for such operation.Originally posted by Joshua1975:We have airborne unit and we do not need or I should say we have no such area for a LOW drop of 'tanks' in our AO. Learn more about Airdrop, DZ before making such comments. Furthermore we dun operate in that manner
Cannot do a coastal landing? Who will land blind? You thinking too much about D-day What is a 'beach head' for and where are the NDU? By air or by sea, your comment seem shallow.
The NS highway seem large enough.
Amphibious landing alway carry a high casualty risk, of course we will look for the weakest defended area for the beachhead, but it is not alway present itself, our enemy know that & might anticipate such move.
For example in GW1, the Iraqi have heavy fortification along the coast , anticipating a marines landing, but in the end ,US army did not take this option but by the land route option.
In SG context, only amphi & air option is available to us.
My suggestion is to add another dimension to our current capability, we dun operate in that manner does not mean we dun seek new ways for operation. -
Originally posted by gary1910:No such area ! maybe , we could do low level airdrop on the highway , this is certainly a large enough clearing for such operation.
The NS highway seem large enough.
maybe the airdrop i know of is diff from ur low level airdrop u talking about... if not.. how to drop on highway???????? u so accurate??? -
Well, Chinook's central hook is capable to carry 12 tonnes load, a M113A1 combat weight abt 11 tonnes and unloaded weight about 9.6 tonnes, I believe it could be done.Originally posted by bcoy:Using Chinooks to carry M113s? I don't think so.
Is there a real need for airborne infantry like the Malaysian RDF brigade? What are the objectives of such a unit compared to an airmobile (heliborne) unit in local context?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/chinook/index.html
As for 2nd qn, heli borne lift is limited thus you could lift armour asset of thin armour say maybe up to 12 tonnes?
But a C-130 could you give heavier air lift capability thus able to have armour asset of higher weight abt 17 tonnes.It could 2-3 such AFVs.
Thus you could hv better armoured veh for today warfare. -
X 2Originally posted by gary1910:No such area ! maybe , we could do low level airdrop on the highway , this is certainly a large enough clearing for such operation.
The NS highway seem large enough.
Amphibious landing alway carry a high casualty risk, of course we will look for the weakest defended area for the beachhead, but it is not alway present itself, our enemy know that & might anticipate such move.
For example in GW1, the Iraqi have heavy fortification along the coast , anticipating a marines landing, but in the end ,US army did not take this option but by the land route option.
In SG context, only amphi & air option is available to us.
My suggestion is to add another dimension to our current capability, we dun operate in that manner does not mean we dun seek new ways for operation. By air or by sea, your comment seem shallow. -
Yes, low level is accurate becos the plane is only a few metre above ground during such operation.It is called LAPES = Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System . Read abt it from here & why there is need for such operation:Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):
maybe the airdrop i know of is diff from ur low level airdrop u talking about... if not.. how to drop on highway???????? u so accurate???
http://www.parachutehistory.com/military/lapes.html
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since it's so low and if u dun care about enemy fire... then what is the diff btw dropping with a c130 and our heli?? u can have a bn inserted in no time.....Originally posted by gary1910:Yes, low level is accurate becos the plane is only a few metre above ground during such operation.It is called LAPES = Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System . Read abt it from here & why there is need for such operation:
http://www.parachutehistory.com/military/lapes.html
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ReadOriginally posted by gary1910:Yes, low level is accurate becos the plane is only a few metre above ground during such operation.It is called LAPES = Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System . Read abt it from here & why there is need for such operation:
http://www.parachutehistory.com/military/lapes.html
meaning never call for it right 
so what make you think N.S.H. can call for a drop And why here you dun mention what and where are the threat we will face -
Now Josh will earn his pay, PF and maybe some airborne troops in place before such operation!Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):since it's so low and if u dun care about enemy fire... then what is the diff btw dropping with a c130 and our heli?? u can have a bn inserted in no time..... 
A C-130 will have heavier load capacity as well as better range, as I said before we only have abt 12 Chinook which has limited lift capacity compare to the C-130. -
har??? what talking u.. ??Originally posted by gary1910:Now Josh will earn his pay, PF and maybe some airborne troops n place before such operation! -
Sorri typo, read again.Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):har??? what talking u.. ??
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Yes heavier load, but how many can one take? Using LAPES to land one ABG, How many C130 we need do you know? How long the DZ need do you know? Not oni long, How wide? How is the operator going to the vehicle, confirm they are not inside.Originally posted by gary1910:A C-130 will have heavier load capacity as well as range, as I said before we only have abt 12 Chinook which is also limited lift capacity compare to the C-130.
LAPES will oni be used when the AO is secure fully.
Next better range, how far you want to go -
ok if ur are talking about 1) armour here.. then yes c130 can carry.. but how many??? and will such a small force be of any use??? have armour but not troop support also die what....they will just be pin down very fast or even kena arti and how many c130 u think can go in one wave??Originally posted by gary1910:Now Josh will earn his pay, PF and maybe some airborne troops in place before such operation!
A C-130 will have heavier load capacity as well as better range, as I said before we only have abt 12 Chinook which has limited lift capacity compare to the C-130.
2) if it's troops, 12x Chinook, 12x50=600 compare to the few c130 that we can use??? and if u are flying so low.... dun u think c130 is a bigger target??? dun forget we have SP too... if u dare dare..we can have 1 or 2 bn inserted in just 1 wave...
so which is better??
sorri mi no expert... but just my 2 cent worth of views.... -
The largest air-drop was done b4 my time. 6 X C130 for CDO BN if I am not wrong.
The largest air inserted so far oni 1 X BN+ which I am in till now a BN+ is what SAF have done. C130, SP and Chinook all involve. What you think? Time is the main thing here. We cannot have the window open too long like the LAPES.
The main point is man and equipment must go in together.
Sorry time to take to land 1 BDE or 1 BN will not be say in here. -
I hv say it in the previous post to bcoy. why C-130, why not Chinook, the reason is that it could carry a heavier & better protected AFV than a Chinook could. One C-130 could carry abt 2 -3 such vehicles, and Chinnok only one and also lighter AFV which is less protected.Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):ok if ur are talking about 1) armour here.. then yes c130 can carry.. but how many??? and will such a small force be of any use??? have armour but not troop support also die what....they will just be pin down very fast or even kena arti and how many c130 u think can go in one wave??
2) if it's troops, 12x Chinook, 12x50=600 compare to the few c130 that we can use??? and if u are flying so low.... dun u think c130 is a bigger target??? dun forget we have SP too... if u dare dare..we can have 1 or 2 bn inserted in just 1 wave...
so which is better??
sorri mi no expert... but just my 2 cent worth of views....
The whole operation is not limited to only C-130, 12 Chinook for lighter asset like the LSV, LG105mm etc, whereas the 8-10 C-130 will have abt at least 16 heavier AFVs.
The combined airlift capacity will be greatly increased when both type are used right? -
Based what you are saying, 6 C-130 for one Bn of commando, along with number of Chinook for LSV etcOriginally posted by Joshua1975:The largest air-drop was done b4 my time. 6 X C130 for CDO BN if I am not wrong.
The largest air inserted so far oni 1 X BN+ which I am in till now a BN+ is what SAF have done. C130, SP and Chinook all involve. What you think? Time is the main thing here. We cannot have the window open too long like the LAPES.
The main point is man and equipment must go in together.
Sorry time to take to land 1 BDE or 1 BN will not be say in here.
Afterwhich they will secure the DZ, then 4 C-130 with 8 AFVs will come in doing LAPES, possible?
Btw ,the operators were already airdrop with the rest of the commando.