SAR-21
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hi guys
not a sar-21 user here, but would like to know how the field personnel find it.
not likely i would be using one myself since i'm in the pdf. and how does a left-handed user adapt the rifle for use since there's no provision made for ejection of spent cases? -
Accurate weapon especially with the 1.5x scope.
Basically, SAR21 is designed for right hander only. Left hander are not allow to fire using left hand. Cause your face will be burn by the ejected cartridge......there is also another reason..........
Due to it bullpulp design, the chamber is located just next to the firer's face when he is firing. As a safety feature, a kelver plate is built in the face plate to protect the firer's face incase of chamber explosion, this way, explosion will be direct out through the ejection port.
For a let hander, if they insist on firing left hander, not only will they be burn by the ejetion port, in the event of chamber explosion, left hander's face will take the full blast of the explosion.
Infact, all left handers are forced to fire with their right hand.
Coupled with the 1.5x scope, left hander should be able to adapt. Feedback from some of the left handers. A little ackward at first but will get over it.
Another of the safety aspect about the rifle is when the magazine is empty, the bolt will be behind. The bolt will remain there no matter how you cock (btw there is no e-spring feature like the M16). The only way to release the bolt forward is to remove the magazine first, pull the cocking handle to release the bolt forward. This feature greatly reduce the possibility of mis-firing.
Changing of magazine is a little ackward but not a major issue.
Filed stripping SAR21 is pretty simple (less step than M16) and easy to clean.
The only grim about SAR21 is the location of the fire selecter. It is a depressed button locate near to the butt plate. To change firing mode, you would have to take your hand momentarily off the weapon to switch accordingly........
which may make you lose some time engaging the enemy.....
Also, there is no tritium tip for night firing. Night firing is done with the built in LAD. Need to properly zero the LAD first before firing, else will shoot all over the shop. Use of LAD is the same principle 4 sec rules. Point 4 sec then off.
A good rifle tht needs some getting use to.....
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might want to note that that's only the selector for automatic fire. the 'safe' and 'semi' mode button is just in front of the trigger guard such that you can easily switch it (at least from 'safe' to 'semi') with your index finger.Originally posted by Slywong:The only grim about SAR21 is the location of the fire selecter. It is a depressed button locate near to the butt plate. To change firing mode, you would have to take your hand momentarily off the weapon to switch accordingly........ which may make you lose some time engaging the enemy..... -
My unit switched to SAR mark3 midway. General consensus ? We hate it.
For me, I was a left hander and I hated SAR. In training the cartirdge is damn irritating as it gets in the way of everything. During live firing, hot emtpy cartridges get thrown into your face.
SAR IS NOT A LEFT HANDED WEAPON.
Even in an old thread long ago, a tech/designer in SAR developement team (at least he seemed like one) said it wasn't meant for lefties.
Old thread here (where i kpkb a lot about SAR) : http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=75316 -
Personally, I find the SAR-21 doesn't give me that secure feel. It feels fragile unlike the M-16. And the position of the magazine, oh goodness. Yeah and the safty switch is another issue also.
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Well,to be frank,the selector and safety is sumthing i cannot live with.But I do have to agree that the lack of a friggin bayonet for the weapon is a BIG TURNOFF!!!And its weight...However,its a good weapon which deserves credit in certain aspects
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That is becoz in most cases the conducting officers do not really understand the design and capabilities of SAR21. As such, they choose the safest and easy way out by giving the instruction on THERE WILL NOT BE LEFT HANDED FIRER FOR THIS WEAPON. The same situation happened to our Ultimax100 as wellOriginally posted by Slywong:Accurate weapon especially with the 1.5x scope.
Basically, SAR21 is designed for right hander only. Left hander are not allow to fire using left hand. Cause your face will be burn by the ejected cartridge......there is also another reason..........
Due to it bullpulp design, the chamber is located just next to the firer's face when he is firing. As a safety feature, a kelver plate is built in the face plate to protect the firer's face incase of chamber explosion, this way, explosion will be direct out through the ejection port.
For a left hander, if they insist on firing left hander, not only will they be burn by the ejetion port, in the event of chamber explosion, left hander's face will take the full blast of the explosion.
Infact, all left handers are forced to fire with their right hand.
Coupled with the 1.5x scope, left hander should be able to adapt. Feedback from some of the left handers. A little ackward at first but will get over it.
Another of the safety aspect about the rifle is when the magazine is empty, the bolt will be behind. The bolt will remain there no matter how you cock (btw there is no e-spring feature like the M16). The only way to release the bolt forward is to remove the magazine first, pull the cocking handle to release the bolt forward. This feature greatly reduce the possibility of mis-firing.
Changing of magazine is a little ackward but not a major issue.
Filed stripping SAR21 is pretty simple (less step than M16) and easy to clean.
The only grim about SAR21 is the location of the fire selecter. It is a depressed button locate near to the butt plate. To change firing mode, you would have to take your hand momentarily off the weapon to switch accordingly........ which may make you lose some time engaging the enemy.....
Also, there is no tritium tip for night firing. Night firing is done with the built in LAD. Need to properly zero the LAD first before firing, else will shoot all over the shop. Use of LAD is the same principle 4 sec rules. Point 4 sec then off.
A good rifle tht needs some getting use to..... 
The weapon is design in such that one a round is fired off, the empty cartridge will eject out toward the front compare to M16S1 which it will eject toward the rear. Thats why no metal deflector is needed for SAR21.
Next, the machanism of SAR21 is design to prevent the operator getting hurt from chamber explosion... -
steyr AUG can config to either lefties or righties.
definitely prefer that over SAR21 -
Remember, your weapon is made by the lowest bidder.
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The pitch made by ST Kinetics was that the deflector for left-handers was built-in. That little wedge at the opening of the ejector port is it but it's effectiveness is questionable. Already hate it the moment I set eyes on it and I'm praying I don't have to use it.
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wah lau... so how?? some say can some say cannot.. so left hander can use SAR or not?? and is it allowed???? coz mi a left hander and how to suddenly change to right???? especially when i am using it once a yr only???????? hope my unit wont have to convert to using SAR yet.... or just give mi a M4 lah... mi not asking for alot right???
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Belgian FN2000 better still no need to config at all 'cos the spent cartridges are ejected way up front. So right hander or south paw, no worry about the cartridge getting fired into your face.
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huh? serious??? to me the sar21 is very 'solid' feeling. definitely less fragile than the m16.Originally posted by ditzy:Personally, I find the SAR-21 doesn't give me that secure feel. It feels fragile unlike the M-16. And the position of the magazine, oh goodness. Yeah and the safty switch is another issue also.
once during a soc test i banged my m16 on the parallel bars and one side of the handguard came off!!! had to run the rest of the way with the handguard sticking out of my sbo pouch... -
Well...for one thing e Sar-21 is much more accurate....less recoil....
I used it in my reservist and it turns out .....i m much better at this weapon....
P.S:i used to be bobo shooter...but i hit 90% of my shoots with this one...ha ha.... this is cos e weight of the gun is in e middle n not in the back like in e m 16
but nevertheless....i do admit it looks like a freaking "toy" gun. -
The weapon is design in such that one a round is fired off, the empty cartridge will eject out toward the front compare to M16S1 which it will eject toward the rear. Thats why no metal deflector is needed for SAR21.
andThe pitch made by ST Kinetics was that the deflector for left-handers was built-in. That little wedge at the opening of the ejector port is it but it's effectiveness is questionable. Already hate it the moment I set eyes on it and I'm praying I don't have to use it.
There IS a built in deflector. It's actually just a tiny plastic wedge at the back of the ejector port. The cartridges STILL DO eject backwards, BUT when they hit the wedge, they are "deflected" forward.
The issue is, the joke of a deflector doesn't work 80% of the time. I went through so many live firing sessions, section/platoon/coy/bn firings, I've done it all. 80% of the hot live rounds fly in my direction.
It's not a field weapon at the moment I find. It's at best a weapon for FIBUA or guard duty like exercises. Maybe if the design is further improved, we can take it out into the field ...
Most of the issues have been discussed in the old thread i put up above ... -
just wondering what you mean by it not being a 'field weapon'?Originally posted by meander:It's not a field weapon at the moment I find. It's at best a weapon for FIBUA or guard duty like exercises. Maybe if the design is further improved, we can take it out into the field ...
fibua-wise i think it's too long - a carbine'd be better. -
To quivalen above,
I wonder have you compared the length of SAR21 with a carbine before? To say the SAR21 is much longer than a carbine is nonsense.
Remember to measure the length when the stock is extended, not collapsed. Well, not much difference actually. -
Left handers already cannot handle the GPMG, 84, LAW, SAW. Add in SAR and you might as well make them all clerks.Originally posted by erijazz:That is becoz in most cases the conducting officers do not really understand the design and capabilities of SAR21. As such, they choose the safest and easy way out by giving the instruction on THERE WILL NOT BE LEFT HANDED FIRER FOR THIS WEAPON. The same situation happened to our Ultimax100 as well.
SAR was designed for the infantry i believe (correct me if i'm wrong). But it's a tad too heavy. Infantry move to contact for 3-5 days out in the field and by the 5th day you just want to chuck the SAR away in a deep hole. FBO + SAR in brunei for 4 days straight was pure hell.Originally posted by quivalen:just wondering what you mean by it not being a 'field weapon'?
fibua-wise i think it's too long - a carbine'd be better.
Another major problem is night firing. The scope is totally useless at night, and the LAD lights only solve part of the problem. There WILL always be blur idiots that misuse it, cocking up the whole show by reavealing your platoon/coy position, no matter how well they're trained. Even if no one cocks up, during the fire fight, you will reveal your positions to the enemy and that makes you easier to pick out. Furthermore, if your LAD is zeroed at 100m, it's useless at 75m or 125m as the spot you're pointing at is NOT what your is round hitting. Hence, your LAD is only useful under 2 conditions 1) within 10-20 m of whatever range you zeroed it at, and 2) if the target is 5 meters away, it's so close it won't make a difference anyway.
But the SAR is a well balanced weapon, meaning the CG of the weapon is somewhere near the trigger. That, combined with the light recoil (that some complain makes it feel like a toy gun) helps you aim better and ensure that you maintain your fire at the same spot continuously.
Hence my opinion is that the SAR is better suited for static deployment like guard duty, POI, Ops bacinet and so on. Defending a BUA could be another option, but SAF hardly does that.
Maybe if they further improve the design/weight of the SAR, we could use it effectively in the field. -
you're kidding - the carbine is definitely shorter.Originally posted by Icemoon:To quivalen above,
I wonder have you compared the length of SAR21 with a carbine before? To say the SAR21 is much longer than a carbine is nonsense.
Remember to measure the length when the stock is extended, not collapsed. Well, not much difference actually.
in fibua why extend the stock? accuracy isn't an issue anymore. not extending the stock makes a significant difference. -
Just converted to the SAR21 during my ICT recently. Basically, I find the overall performance of the weapon to be better than the M16. Sure it has its limitations, but in terms of handling and firing, its still better than the M16.
As for some of the comments on this thread, I agree with some of it, but others are plain ridiculous so as to speak....here are some of my views
Point 1
This weapon was not meant for left-handers. Unfortunately this is the sad truth, but you can't please everyone, esp. when they had factored in the safety aspect in the event of a chamber explosion, and designed a kevlar protection plate opposite the ejector port to protect the firer's face.
Point 2
Fire selection switch. Its inconvenient, but I don't believe any soldier would bother to switch fire in the middle of a fire-fight with the enemy, cos he/she would have fire in auto mode anyway!!!!
Point 3
Night firing, AFAIK its still better when you're using the sight compared to the M16, although adding a tritium sight would be an added bonus.
Point 4
It pointless comparing to the carbine as this is totally different. ST could simply shorten the barrel if they want to replace the carbine for FIBUA. But then the same soldier who had fought using the carbine during FIBUA would probably have curse and swear when he has to shoot the enemy at 300m!!!
Point 5
Much easier if you need to bash thru dense vegetation. Period.
Point 6
Easier to maintain and clean than M16
Point 7
less recoil than M16 due to CG of the weapon, which means you don't have to take so long for follow-up shots.
These are my thoughts. Comments welcome. -
Of course it is shorter! But not much shorter. Unless every cm to you matter.Originally posted by quivalen:you're kidding - the carbine is definitely shorter. -
Yeah, take out the flash hider should be able to shave off another 1.5-2cm.Originally posted by Icemoon:Of course it is shorter! But not much shorter. Unless every cm to you matter. -
what i have to say is that every weapon is always built with some good advantages and those bad ones. althought m4 carbine barrel is short and shoot range is not really good but it is good in the CQB assault. and SAR 21 is much lighter in weight and shoot range better than m4, but is not good for the lefties.
what i have to say that every weapon is built to help the user to shoot better and move faster of swiftly. but it all depends on the user itself, how he use it, how he get use to his weapon, it all depends on him/her. -
You contridicted yourself there. The M4 is as accurate as the normal M16. Just becoz it's shorter dun mean its less accurate, especially if you know how to use it. It was once believed that no-one in our coy could get marksmanship using the M4/Carbine but a few proved them wrong. Even our CSM did it in style, shooting straight sets of figure 15s from 300m out.Originally posted by martin_lim85:what i have to say is that every weapon is always built with some good advantages and those bad ones. althought m4 carbine barrel is short and shoot range is not really good but it is good in the CQB assault. and SAR 21 is much lighter in weight and shoot range better than m4, but is not good for the lefties.
what i have to say that every weapon is built to help the user to shoot better and move faster of swiftly. but it all depends on the user itself, how he use it, how he get use to his weapon, it all depends on him/her. -
haha okok i also prefer using M4