[b]Singaporean Made Fighter Jet? [/b]
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Sigh, there's no use arguing with a brickwall guys. You'll have better luck chatting up a cow.
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Jaguar is another one... France didn't want intl customer as of compeition to Mirage
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the F117 deal was scraped by the brits....not the US if i remember correctly.
As for making a new fighter? nah...it's a waste of money....
it is infact alot less cost effective then buying 1
When you buy a plane like say the Eurofighter....you have the development cost of say 6 billion split by 200 odd planes.....
If made ur own u'd have to split say 3 billion by 20 planes.....meaning u pay alot more per plane then if u just bought 1 -
F-117 is US own planeOriginally posted by |-|05|:the F117 deal was scraped by the brits....not the US if i remember correctly.
As for making a new fighter? nah...it's a waste of money....
it is infact alot less cost effective then buying 1
When you buy a plane like say the Eurofighter....you have the development cost of say 6 billion split by 200 odd planes.....
If made ur own u'd have to split say 3 billion by 20 planes.....meaning u pay alot more per plane then if u just bought 1 -
I think he meant that the Brits scuttled the deal to purchase the F117 from the USm which was not against that proposed sale.Originally posted by sbst275:F-117 is US own plane -
1. Cut down military general's salary.Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:Remember Sun Zi's Art of War?
If i remember...correctly....Being of high morale and being confident is very important..if commander is weak..the tropps will lose
So if i change my beliefs and if i admit defeat , then i would not be of any good material..
Anyway lemme state down what i would do if i were defense minister
and with a 8 billion yearly budget
You just make your 1st major error against Sun Zi's war of art. You make your commander weak ..... next you make him easier to turn to brides and other ..... . Sun Zi's war of art, read the whole damn thing !
3. Check if planes based in foreign country is really feasible , how fast can arrive back , for example , if the pilot flying back say 12 hours..he would be really tired and a 2nd pilot come take over..and regarding foreign bases..
whether we could use to strike enemy places..and whether we can gain access for airspace to pass through if such a need arises
Singapore air force already done that, why are you taking other people ideal for your credit, no character !
4.Purchases
Fantastic, you want good stuff and you want good pay for soldiers, so where the money come from, your mouth. By the way, you got a soldier army, with no officers, as all officers have left the army as you cut their pay. By the way, pilots are officers also, so you you have all high tech stuff but the better minds is not there for it . What would Sun Zi say your troops that have no officer to lead !
If Sun Zi is alive, he will be suing you for spoliting his reputation !!! So pls don't quote books that you didn't even read properly. -
Yep that was what i meant.Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:I think he meant that the Brits scuttled the deal to purchase the F117 from the USm which was not against that proposed sale.
The deal was scuttled due to the lack of funds.However there has been an exchange program....with a british pilot serving.
Skunk works! the best there is!
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Military officers pay currently also exceeds 10k SGD..
they are paid more then even starting pay for master degree holders
the cut off for pension , which was done last time..was a really good idea
Why pay military officers so high , whereby you pay NS Man so little?
You worry about military officers defecting..why not worry about the NS Man being spies for other neighbouring countries..you pay them $500 SGD..
Don't give me the B.S that NS Man ranking low so pay lower..
NS Man 1 day has the potential to become general..
Everyone start from small..
Ns Man IMHO are also important cause they form the pillar of the country
The Reason why they can't leave is because they are also bounded by the law..lemme ask you lar...if a enemy willing to pay $1000 SGD for each NS Man that provides sensitive information....and would the enemy be so stupid to bribe Generals?? Generals have everything to lose in times of war..their properties etc etc..but we got nothing to lose..so why would they GET bribed in that sense? Does the enemy even have $$ to pay them?
I believe generals do know alot of sensitive informations..
But the Military NS man also does ...and they might know better
cause they are into tech specs..and they know exactly how it works etc..
and furthermore and 1 key point to note is that..if war happens..
the enemy will put a bait of "free security and protection" if you give us
credible information....
and even if the high -ranking personnel pay cut..they also won't lose out anything..thier opportunity cost from the loss of the pay cut also far exceeds what their peer earns..
And I have said , in WAR you can't really confirm ANYTHING.
Just imagine..SAY Singapore kana invaded by Country B
today. A4-SU Squadron training in Cazaux, France , flies back and
HITS Athens 2004 Olympics airspace , but due to security reasons,
unable to fly back due to the heavy security , have to re-route and
in case you don't know..Greece spent 1.5 billion USD for the security of athens alone , and there is a probability of flying through Iraq, Iran , Syria
and some of it might be perceived as hostile nations.
Or lets say another September 11 happens, last time 2 hours after September 11 occurs.. ALL airspace in America was closed..for a period of time , lets say war happens and the general in SG , calls up USA...What do you think will happen to those F-16s in Luke AFB?
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Military officers pay currently also exceeds 10k SGD..
Where you get you fact ? If that high pay the person must be of rank and a degree holder.
if a enemy willing to pay $1000 SGD for each NS Man that provides sensitive information....
Let enemy pay $1000 sgd , get what information ? haha that will waste their money which could have use to buy weapon and pay soldiers. Not a bad way to use up enemy budget. Pls lah, don't assume our enemy no brain like you lah.
But the Military NS man also does ...and they might know better
cause they are into tech specs..and they know exactly how it works etc..
Wau lau, military manufacturer, are more then keen to give spec and demo of equipment lah to any countries. It is how they are deploy is more important that is the general area not soldiers.
Just imagine..SAY Singapore kana invaded by Country B
today. A4-SU Squadron training in Cazaux, France , flies back and
HITS Athens 2004 Olympics airspace , but due to security reasons,
unable to fly back due to the heavy security , have to re-route and
in case you don't know..Greece spent 1.5 billion USD for the security of athens alone , and there is a probability of flying through Iraq, Iran , Syria
and some of it might be perceived as hostile nations.
Or lets say another September 11 happens, last time 2 hours after September 11 occurs.. ALL airspace in America was closed..for a period of time , lets say war happens and the general in SG , calls up USA...What do you think will happen to those F-16s in Luke AFB?
If singapore kana attack, you see french , US rushing our planes back !! they even send their own planes and their air-craft carriers here. Why they need singapore, which is to keep their trade route open. Any war in Singapore will cut their trade link to China , Japan and Korea ...... also they be asking ask want to put in new rush order with instant delivery for weapon, special price some more !!! You think airforce never consider all these, they have good people that is why they are paying them 10K becasue they thought of all these and that is why they paying you $800, because you moron !!! -
Simple.1,000 SGD can get 1k SGD of information
Maybe you are some sorta ignorant one, but i have noticed and read foreign newspaper and saw an increasing no. of singaporeans migrating to malaysia
Remember its not the General himself who knows the sensitive information.
Remember last time the Great emperor Qin Shih Huang died? and the tomb?
He basically killed all those people and buried himself with them too.
Why? Why ? Why? Cause even the smallest servant there..knows where he is buried and this is applicable in our case here. Even the smallest servant , you no need give him so much bribes, in our context here, we will be using 1,000 SGD as a example . And even the lowest ranking might know what is actually and really going on
Note that i have remained my cool and to be Sure & SteadFast , even when people has flamed me , to me i think thats the most important point of being a gentleman during peacetime and a soldier during war time.
Clearly , you have even failed in that simple task , note how many times you have called me moron , Even US is divided on whether they will surely send out troops and HELP Taiwan with 20 million population is definitely a more important US Ally compared to us, you can see with the equipment they let them purchase Aegis , PAC...
The reason why in the newspapers sometime back taiwanese complain US let them buy 2nd hand goods is because they are afraid that if CN manage to successfully conquer them , CN will have access to the technology and use it against them!
For Me , 800 Dollars isn't even enough to pay for my car .
Smart people aren't made for doing small task .
In the eyes of the commander , you are just a pawn.
In Life , from the time since i was born , i knew i was destinied to be someone great , and im going to make that my destiny.
In life , you also must know that from being a pawn , a pawn must go through alot of stuffs..then finally can become a queen/knight/bishop..
RSAF always follow the strategy of chess closely, hence..Tengah Air Base
Knight and Rook ...^.^
I may not be entirely correct , but neither am i entirely wrong =D -
You are more and more incoherent by the minute.
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If SG has that kind of money might as well start our own space project.
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Singapore has a space satellite spy project..with Israel
if you search around in yahoo
And our dear Lee Hsien Yang , CEO of Singtel has been
using overseas launches of rocket..to put telecommunication satellites into space =D
And...In Malaysia's Purchases of 18 SU-30 MKM Jets..with a total cost of
$900 million USD , they have submitted a request to Russia to put a Malaysian into space =) -
I see where this is going now. Our self-termed "patriot" seems to be no more informative than a foreigner. It seems to me that our armed forces have wasted that $800 a month allowance on this disgruntled individual, who can be easily bought over by an extra few zeros, which was suggested by the individual himself. Patience? I hardly think so. What we've seen is points being dissected and debunked, after which irrelevant information and change of topic takes place without acknowledgement of the earlier discussions.
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is getting more and more offtopic
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Re : the german sounding name above
In a war, who will be the 1st to defect first?
Will it be a German or a Singaporean?
Im a Singaporean highlighting all kinds of possibilities in a war , highlighting all kinds of stuff in a war is definitely crucial and someone is pointing finger at me
You know who you are . -
Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:
No need to tell people you rich and $800 cannot even pay for your car.
Simple.1,000 SGD can get 1k SGD of information
Maybe you are some sorta ignorant one, but i have noticed and read foreign newspaper and saw an increasing no. of singaporeans migrating to malaysia
Remember its not the General himself who knows the sensitive information.
Remember last time the Great emperor Qin Shih Huang died? and the tomb?
He basically killed all those people and buried himself with them too.
Why? Why ? Why? Cause even the smallest servant there..knows where he is buried and this is applicable in our case here. Even the smallest servant , you no need give him so much bribes, in our context here, we will be using 1,000 SGD as a example . And even the lowest ranking might know what is actually and really going on
Note that i have remained my cool and to be Sure & SteadFast , even when people has flamed me , to me i think thats the most important point of being a gentleman during peacetime and a soldier during war time.
Clearly , you have even failed in that simple task , note how many times you have called me moron , Even US is divided on whether they will surely send out troops and HELP Taiwan with 20 million population is definitely a more important US Ally compared to us, you can see with the equipment they let them purchase Aegis , PAC...
The reason why in the newspapers sometime back taiwanese complain US let them buy 2nd hand goods is because they are afraid that if CN manage to successfully conquer them , CN will have access to the technology and use it against them!
For Me , 800 Dollars isn't even enough to pay for my car .
Smart people aren't made for doing small task .
In the eyes of the commander , you are just a pawn.
In Life , from the time since i was born , i knew i was destinied to be someone great , and im going to make that my destiny.
In life , you also must know that from being a pawn , a pawn must go through alot of stuffs..then finally can become a queen/knight/bishop..
RSAF always follow the strategy of chess closely, hence..Tengah Air Base
Knight and Rook ...^.^
[b]
I may not be entirely correct , but neither am i entirely wrong =D[/b]
And pls do not tell us since you are born you are destinied to be someone great and you are going to make that your destiny. By the way I hope your fortune teller told you that you are going to be call MORON by me again.
If you want to be treat like gentleman, army is not the place, go join girl guide ! -
Send spaceship to mars.Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:Singapore has a space satellite spy project..with Israel
if you search around in yahoo
And our dear Lee Hsien Yang , CEO of Singtel has been
using overseas launches of rocket..to put telecommunication satellites into space =D
And...In Malaysia's Purchases of 18 SU-30 MKM Jets..with a total cost of
$900 million USD , they have submitted a request to Russia to put a Malaysian into space =) -
Uncle , please lor $800 can pay for what car now? Who caused the CAR prices to be so high nowadays?Originally posted by storywolf:No need to tell people you rich and $800 cannot even pay for your car.
And pls do not tell us since you are born you are destinied to be someone great and you are going to make that your destiny. By the way I hope your fortune teller told you that you are going to be call MORON by me again.
If you want to be treat like gentleman, army is not the place, go join girl guide !
Haha sorry i don't go to my fortune tellers , my religion don't allow that
We humans should believe in destiny AND forge out a destiny ourselves
just like LKY did.with regards to destiny , I just seem to feel that we humans are born in life to enjoy a great destiny , and to be someone in life , just like Mr LKY , and now since we have been invited to write the next chapter of Singapore , with Mr LHL , I feel that we should rise up to the occasion.
If you were born and not to aim for the best , Then Tell me what you are here on earth for ? To end up as someone with nothing ?
just look back at your past , When was the last time you accomplished anything great?
Want to be gentleman must go to girl guide? Rofl , I Think St. John Ambulance will be more appropriate. Told you , its like Peace time = Gentleman , war time = soldier.
Imagine a scenario ,Gentleman Scenario - whereby you are wearing a western suit with coat and tie , whereby you received a call while dating your girlfriend , you imagine sit inside your army provided "Audi" A4 and drive towards your air base , show your pass , go inside and wear your pilot
suit and get ready to sit inside your F-16 fighting falcon to defend the country.
As ive said before remaining calmness and resilence
Army is not the place ? Gentleman is the time when u take out your No.1 Uniform and step inside the church for the wedding , coming out of the church
then have a 21-gun salute..
Then a Porsche.., take your gal into Raffles Marina go to a yacht and spent a wonderful night there.
Who the heck created the sterotype that we guys must be girly in order to be a gentleman? James bond himself is a gentleman when it comes to women ,
and when it comes to being a soldier he's a man.
Evidently in all aspects of your argument , you have lost out to me and you have started to hurl your personal insults at me , i find it greatly deplorable
I , as a future generation of Singapore , will continue to have dreams and new ideas for our country to reach a even higher level and will also try to explore and find new ways For us to establish ourselves and anything whether possible/impossible also start from as small as a dream , even the dream of a fighter jet may seem impossible now..but who can tell the future 50 years from now? Who knows, I may be the one starting the fighter jet programme =D , even though I acknowledge , you might be better then me in terms of military experience so and so , but as a fellow Singaporean instead of flaming me or doing whatsoever , you could have provided support for me in my arguments , instead of being rigid and bureaucratic like a wooden box. However impossible a dream may seem ,It may one day become reality , because Singapore is always the country that will establish new frontiers , our 650 square kilometer country has the most densest defense shield in the world , and we also can build stealth boats and new technology tanks with less then 40 years after SingaporeÂ’s independence , furthermore , If we donÂ’t believe in ourselves , no one else will .
Just Take a Look at Wright Brothers , if they followed what other people say..
"Hey humans are meant not to make flying machines man..Why bother about making flying machines? Do you have nothing else to do ??" this sentence may seem logical about 1900s..but now..we would have laughed at this statement . If Wright Brothers from the U.S.A have listened to them and continued making bicycles..Imagine today's war and how people would travel .. And Imagine Independence Day ID:4 the movie..Top Gun..
No one would use stealth bombers..no planes to counter UFO..
Pal , trust me i really wanna go OCS and be a fighter pilot next time to guard Singapore skies and i do have the enthusiasm and the patriotic spirit , with regards to the $800 , i believe that im just highlighting just any amount at which people can buy over some people loyalty. But for us , we will never betray our sovereignty , cause if we betray , we will not exist anymore, Who will take us in ?
Our government efforts to make HDB flats , CC , RC hopefully has not been in vain , your existence and my existence also has not been in vain .
Perhaps , if i do manage to be a fighter pilot for NGF next time , and if your in the same airbase..i maybe would wanna treat you to some kopi..=D
If next time , anything bad happens ,and duty calls , i will wear my fighter pilot suit and take on my helmut and protect my skies , in the event of anything bad happens , i will know that i have done my utmost , and my conscience is there and if my plane does go down , the nation will take care of my family and i will try my best to divert the plane away
i will not be enlisting into NS anytime soon , but quite long til i start my first BMT.. -
How in the world to provide support for you, when you are totally wrong. It is you who are totally rigid and bureauratic not us.Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:as a fellow Singaporean instead of flaming me or doing whatsoever , you could have provided support for me in my arguments , instead of being rigid and bureaucratic like a wooden box. However impossible a dream may seem ,It may one day become reality , because Singapore is always the country that will establish new frontiers , our 650 square kilometer country has the most densest defense shield in the world , and we also can build stealth boats and new technology tanks with less then 40 years after SingaporeÂ’s independence , furthermore , If we donÂ’t believe in ourselves , no one else will .
We support everything with facts and what you give is by your mouth. In the end there alway self anounned that you are right, even others all are totaly reject you. How do you expect us to repect and not take you as a joke.
If you want to discuss things nicely here, than do it like a gentleman, give facts that can be support, not bullshit , not your view ! Do it nicely with support facts and don't waste our time, than you will not be insult but treat with respect.
You think all uncles here don't wish to see you flying as pilot in a singapore design plane. But we look at the money side, which you totally disregard and just went on to non-sense arguement as if money will auto appear for the project . Yes dream is good, but practical is more important.
You been so cocky and arrogant here ! If you don't believe ask around, see who take your arguement without supporting fact seriously. -
Obersturmfuhrer, i join you. I give up !Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:Sigh, there's no use arguing with a brickwall guys. You'll have better luck chatting up a cow. -
as a gentleman, would you please go down as a gentleman either? somehow i can kinda admire your skill to force your way through your facts, but please face up as your views aren't realisitc, so, being the gentleman you claim to be, you'll have to learn to accept this facts as well. as for $800 not enough to pay for car, why get a car then? isn't the public transport system good enough?
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1. With rgs to public transport , it gets crowded during peak hours.
2. Gets Real smelly and dirty and cramped.
3. Cheap and good , hey but why SAF provide free Audis?
cause during wartime..you can't take MRT to Tengah MRT Station and
get off.
4. Threat of Al-Qaeda and terrorists , as you can see from 1995 Tokyo Sarin
Subway gas attack , people will die , so i rather not take the chance
although i got confidence in the government.
5. Respect from women , society is constantly evolving and changing
with rgds to it , Women will demand that thier husband have 5c etc etc
so..We guys no choice , havta do it
with regards to costs , i believe the problem can be eventually solved ,
lets see , if we can get complete 100% technology transfer by then in about
year 2060 =D .
Yes i do want to ride a 100% locally built fighter jet in the future national days to come , and stop being bullied by neighbouring countries like M'sia
and we keep on getting flak everyyear but nevertheless , our Foreign ministry have been very tolerant of them. With a superior locally built fighter , i believe
that we can promote patriotism , instead of forcefully incalculating them in school students like in secondary school and catching students for not singing national anthem.
Sure we may get a F-35 JSF and etc etc..even as a low level participant , lets say U.S.A always like that..dowan share source codes for the jet fighter , then buy a plane for what? cause we need the source codes for upgrading ..
My only hope of course is to see singapore being well defended ,
yes i know defense do come at a cost , but i also don't wanna risk being
"qiao zha" .
The idea of starting this topic is this, if we can get a fighter jet , either by producing locally or build it together , we can get spare parts and do D.I.Y
and in case you all do not know , some americans in their congress last time has complained about singapore as in lacking of human rights and protest against FTA , just imagine if people there in U.S.A in the future says SG got no proper elections etc..then ties might be affected . Furthermore USA has been known to sell those stuffs which are 2nd rated 1..that means the F-16 C/D USAF 's 1 configuration is more better then SG's F-16 C/D configuration .
Some special stuff like AESA radar thier planes got but we don't hab >.<
Friends friends also like this 1....in this world..who can we really count on??
Pal i certainly do have considered the possibility of doing it , and i know that fighter jet is much tougher to build in comparison , hey but you forgot one important thing . Temasak holdings has a $52,000,000,000 portfolio .
or $52 billion =D or should i say ..rough 1/4 of the National Reserves
Other stuffs which im trying to identify with regards is..
The purchasing of engines like F404 ...and assemble a fighter plane by ourselves , to put in simpler terms to computer gurus..buying all the HDD and all the RAM and assemble it into a computer.
If we can do it cheaper and better , we can even sell it to other countries ,
cut down our tax rate from 22% FY 2004 to even like 18% for FY 2005
Everyone in SG benefits , and furthermore money goes back into our own pocket . =D . if we can detach a A-4 and put it all back . Why can't we do so for other planes?
Even our Bionix is locally aseembled. Delta Frigate is also locally assembled in ST Marine jurong Shipyard. -
I never realised someone has such a shallow notion as to pin-point forum usernames with personal thoughts. Just because a person has an interest in military history and adopts a foreign word as a username does not give you the right to assume wavering loyalties. I'm not the one who's thinking of selling out my home for any amount, no matter now lousy an allowance my country gives me. If you want more, go "sell your soul" to the SAF instead of whining about being cheap labour.Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:Re : the german sounding name above
In a war, who will be the 1st to defect first?
Will it be a German or a Singaporean?
Im a Singaporean highlighting all kinds of possibilities in a war , highlighting all kinds of stuff in a war is definitely crucial and someone is pointing finger at me
You know who you are . -
Just to prove to all why you are unrealistic and unclear of your thoughts !Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:Military officers pay currently also exceeds 10k SGD..
they are paid more then even starting pay for master degree holders
the cut off for pension , which was done last time..was a really good idea
Why pay military officers so high , whereby you pay NS Man so little?
You worry about military officers defecting..why not worry about the NS Man being spies for other neighbouring countries..you pay them $500 SGD..
Don't give me the B.S that NS Man ranking low so pay lower..
NS Man 1 day has the potential to become general..
3. Cheap and good , hey but why SAF provide free Audis?
cause during wartime..you can't take MRT to Tengah MRT Station and
get off.
Can you pls as a self call gentleman, and explain yourself !
One msg you are complaining that officers are over paid over ! Screaming bloody murder for them to cut pay !
Next you are dreaming to be a airforce pilot, yeh a red audis ! with a gal at the side .......... so if cut pay who pay for your audis ! Also when talk about audis, suddenly you go back to say it is ok to provide free audis !!! Don't give us crap that need to go back to base in war, scooter can do it better, in war roads jam up or blocked a scooter will get you there better and cheap for airforce.
Grow up boy ! You want to cut officer pay at a moment and next you change your mind and want money to buy audi and entertain beautiful gal, next you want Airforce to waste money on audis for you instead on saving to build or buy planes.....
Maybe next time Airforce cut your pay as a pilot as you first suggest , you be the 1st one to sell us out !!! Why as you say it, you need audi and woman ! Maybe you be cheap enough to take that $1000, since you been dreaming on it
A gentleman is in character which you totally lack off shown by you kept going back on your own words ! Don't find ours to blame, blame yourself for your own big mouth, with all posting clearly shown.
You will forever be just a boy and who cannot even know he wants, lost on facts and keep changing every minutes ! haha