SAF's new Light-AntiTank-Weapon : Matador
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The launcher may be old but its still effective. I believe there are still companies out there developing new and improved rounds for the launcher. My favourite is the HE rounds set to airburst.
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LAW cannot be reloaded ah?
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nope.. LAW cannot be reloaded Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:LAW cannot be reloaded ah? -
The 84mm was first test fired in 1946!!!!!!!!!, I guess why we are keeping this weapon is that it is reloadable and the that it has round for anti personnal. ie. Air burst with 900 ball bearings.
So..
one section of 84mm= 1 commander, 4 guns with four rounds each. 2 HEAT and 2 HE.
Total= 8 Heat and 8 HE.
Technically this section of 9 men at company level can destroy an Mechanised company.
Provided they keep still. -
Went to the Open House too.
There was an exhibition on the various anti-armour weapons. Seems that the 84mm is still very much in use and a new tandem round is being developed for it. By the way armour penetration of the matador is in excess of 450mm RHA. -
Haha, for the reality, you should go and see the live firing.Originally posted by AkiraDen:Total= 8 Heat and 8 HE.
Technically this section of 9 men at company level can destroy an Mechanised company.
Provided they keep still. -
Sorry to dissapoint you, I am an 84mm commander. I have fired well over 200 rounds of He and HEAT during my entire service. I have seen what I needed to see.
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Commander where got fire one? I thought he shout command only?
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That it is reloadable is not an advantage. The tube itself is too heavy as is the ammo. And after firing it you have to quickly run as enemy will zero in on you. So the disposable option is actually an advantage. After shooting, throw it away and run.Originally posted by arburthen?:it may be old fashion but it reloadable unlike the LAW or matador, true it cannot penetrate MBT armor but light armor vehicles it still can handle.
It is also useful as a short range arty in situations when your arty cannot reach or the fighting is too close and intense for calling in arty without hitting your own troops then 84 comes in.
But as long as they have 2 per coy we will definately need to be carrying it.
The last time I served (8 years ago), these were the weapons available to the Battalion's Support Company:
• 84mm Recoiless Rifle
• 81mm mortar
• 7.62mm GPMG
I see your point about the 84mm being available as emergency arty.
But the Support Company more or less moves on foot during combat. Unless in static defence. So everything including the ammo is man-packed. The rounds for the 84mm are fairly large (and looks heavy) so I think maybe each 84mm team can carry 3 to 6 rounds per gun?
So you would carry maybe 3 rounds HE and 3 rounds HEAT? I don't know... But that's a little too few rounds to use the 84 as arty.
Besides, I think that's what the 81mm mortars are for. It can also reach people hiding in trenches, the 84 cannot.
If you are talking about busting strong points like bunkers then the rifle section's 66mm LAW is good enough.
So I think that with the 90mm disposable LAW available at 2 per section,
the 84mm is redundant. They should replace the 84mm with more effective portable ATGWs. -
84.........sebei heavy.......went open house tried it, now will pray like siao i would never ganna 84gunner....i rather carry matador for the rest of my life then carry the damned 84
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did u carry the matador?Originally posted by snk86:84.........sebei heavy.......went open house tried it, now will pray like siao i would never ganna 84gunner....i rather carry matador for the rest of my life then carry the damned 84
the matador is 8.9 kg while its projectile is 2.6 kg. putting them together makes it 11.5 kg.
the 84 is 14.2 kg.
not much diff lah..
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The total weight of the Matador is 8.9kg including the 2.6kg projectile.Originally posted by wuming78:did u carry the matador?
the matador is 8.9 kg while its projectile is 2.6 kg. putting them together makes it 11.5 kg.
the 84 is 14.2 kg.
not much diff lah..
Since this is a disposable system it makes no sense to say the launcher tube is 8.9kg while the projectile is another 2.6kg.
The advantage of a disposable system for rifle section is that after firing it, you throw it away and no longer need to carry a heavy and cumbersome launch tube with you. -
tried all of the Anti-armour weapon, i can even run around(i tried!) with the law and the matafor, but i can bearly walk and aim the 84Originally posted by wuming78:did u carry the matador?
the matador is 8.9 kg while its projectile is 2.6 kg. putting them together makes it 11.5 kg.
the 84 is 14.2 kg.
not much diff lah.. -
I beg to defer.....
I recall that the 84mm for should be availabe at Company level under Support Platoon.
the Support Co at Bn level should have mortars (81mm) and ATGW or 106mm RR. -
The 84mm Gun is a company level support weapon. Key word "support". And it remains in many armies around the world as good support weapon.
It is a 84mm "section" within the company, and not platoon size (only 9 men). All 84mm rounds come in 2-round canisters.
All 84mm team members should know all this. I've been in the section since 1990. Me and my buddy have lots of 84mm gun stories to tell. Try carrying the gun in Brunei for one.
There is a lighter, updated model of this gun. Not too sure if the SAF will consider it or replace it with something else. (lightweight AGL??)
But the most important thing about the 84mm gun is the round it fires (eg. airburst HE rounds). -
Spencer99 you said:
" beg to defer..... I recall that the 84mm for should be availabe at Company level under Support Platoon. the Support Co at Bn level should have mortars (81mm) and ATGW or 106mm RR. "
Bcoy you said:
"It is a 84mm "section" within the company, and not platoon size (only 9 men). All 84mm rounds come in 2-round canisters."
Both of you spoke of a "Support Platoon/Section" within ordinary infantry company.
This is new to me. This is how my unit 173 SIR was organised.
Let's say you are Platoon 5 of Bravo Company of 173 SIR.
In Platoon 5 during an assault, you have one GPMG team and one 84mm team assaulting and providing fire support for you.
But both these GPMG and 84 teams aren't an integral part of Platoon 5. They don't even belong to Bravo Company. They belong to the Support Company of 173 SIR.
But for this assault they are attached to your platoon.
The 106mm has been phased out for at least 15 years or more. -
Everyone is raving about this 84mm airburst munition.
The good news is that the CIS or Singapore Technologies had developed 40mm grenade launchers that fire a airbursting grenade.
This 40mm grenade has a longer cartridge than our normal M203 grenade.
They've already got the 40mm AGL that fires this round and they are also developing a SSW (Section Support Weapon) that fires this round. The SSW is a GL with a 5.7 SMG/PDW attached like the US OICW. -
Interesting - in my unit, since 1990 (as well as most other), the 84mm section is part of the company. GPMGs are part of the platoons.Originally posted by tvdog:Spencer99 you said:
" beg to defer..... I recall that the 84mm for should be availabe at Company level under Support Platoon. the Support Co at Bn level should have mortars (81mm) and ATGW or 106mm RR. "
Bcoy you said:
"It is a 84mm "section" within the company, and not platoon size (only 9 men). All 84mm rounds come in 2-round canisters."
Both of you spoke of a "Support Platoon/Section" within ordinary infantry company.
This is new to me. This is how my unit 173 SIR was organised.
Let's say you are Platoon 5 of Bravo Company of 173 SIR.
In Platoon 5 during an assault, you have one GPMG team and one 84mm team assaulting and providing fire support for you.
But both these GPMG and 84 teams aren't an integral part of Platoon 5. They don't even belong to Bravo Company. They belong to the Support Company of 173 SIR.
But for this assault they are attached to your platoon.
The 106mm has been phased out for at least 15 years or more.
There's even an old photo from a old book of the SAF in the late 80s' (when we had 9 men infantry section, etc) - which shows the 84mm section as part of the company. Back then - it was a 15 man 84mm section.
The only time I heard an 84mm section as part of the support company is in the Australian army - there, its called the heavy weapons platoon, and they get to ride in land rovers. -
I think none of what I'm about to say is classified, so here goes...
Mine is a PDF unit. So in my battalion we have 4 companies: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie and Delta. Delta is the Support Company where A, B & C companies consists of ordinary sections and platoons of riflemen.
In A, B & C companies we have 3 sections of 7 -9 men in each platoon armed only with M-16, M-203, SAW, LAW and grenades. Nothing else.
In D company they are armed with GPMG, 84mm and 81mm mortar. Often, Support company personnel are attached to the various platoons but they are not administered as part of our platoon strength. -
I don't think we will replace the 84mm RR with the AGL. These are two different weapons altogther... the 84mm RR is predominantly a Anti Tank weapon but can also be used in the Anti-personnel role.
As for the AGL, its grenades can only be harmful to soft-skinned Vehicles, not a anti-tank weapon.
However, when as supporting fire in a assualt, I think the AGL will probably be more powerful.
But the AGL is tripod mounted and have a high rate of fire, that means we need people to man-packed with tripod and the ammo other then that monstor of a AGL.
So it will make sense to mount it on a jeep, so that it can be mobile, but a jeep is useless in a jungle like terrain. So it might be more useful as a defensive weapon commanding a whole set of terrain with its long range, high volume of fire and deadly anti personnel munitions. -
There is a lot of confusion....
In the past, the GPMGs and 84s are part of the support platoon in a infantry section. But they "pushed" the GPMGs to the platoon-level.
The 84mm Section is still company level support, not a Bn level support.
I think a breakdown can be seen below:
GPMG - Platoon
84mm RR- Company
81mm Mortar- Bn
ATGW - Bn
155mm HW/105mm LG/120mm Mortar - Brigade
In the UK (1982-Falklands), They have a support company in each Bn and they are armed with 81mm Mortars and Milan ATGW.
In a US (light-infantry), it is probably TOW and 81mm Mortars.
This is probably quite similar to a setup to the SAF.
i am not surprised that there are a wide variation in the SAF based on feedback. there are rapid changes in doctrine and setup. I guess some units just evolved slower then others. Also because of roles, I gues PDF units will probably have different setup then the rest.
As for the AGL, I thinkthey will probably fit into a Bn-level support weapon in the support company. -
Hmm... interesting...Originally posted by spencer99:I think a breakdown can be seen below:
GPMG - Platoon
84mm RR- Company
81mm Mortar- Bn
ATGW - Bn
155mm HW/105mm LG/120mm Mortar - Brigade
This makes a lot of sense as we often had a GPMG team attached to us all the time during assaults. Now my memory is alittle fuzzy...
Was the GPMG team a part of my company or a part of the Support Company? I've not served for 8 years so I could be wrong. -
I wasn't suggesting the 40mm AGL replace the 84mm RR. What I was saying is that the 84mm anti-personnel airburst round can now be substituted by the 40mm AGL.Originally posted by spencer99:I don't think we will replace the 84mm RR with the AGL. These are two different weapons altogther... the 84mm RR is predominantly a Anti Tank weapon but can also be used in the Anti-personnel role.
As for the AGL, its grenades can only be harmful to soft-skinned Vehicles, not a anti-tank weapon.
However, when as supporting fire in a assualt, I think the AGL will probably be more powerful.
But the AGL is tripod mounted and have a high rate of fire, that means we need people to man-packed with tripod and the ammo other then that monstor of a AGL.
So it will make sense to mount it on a jeep, so that it can be mobile, but a jeep is useless in a jungle like terrain. So it might be more useful as a defensive weapon commanding a whole set of terrain with its long range, high volume of fire and deadly anti personnel munitions.
This 40mm AGL is quite light, can check CIS for details. And this can be either part of the rifle companies or the Support companies. Besides, the 81mm mortar is still a better anti-personnel weapon and the 84mm RR shouldn't need to duplicate this role.
This means, all we need for the 84mm RR to do is to kill tanks.
So if we only need the 84mm to do an anti-tank role, is there a better alternative to the 84mm RR? Is this overly heavy and cumbersome weapon still capable of killing a modern Malaysian PT-91 for example? If not, then it's obsolete and should be phased out.
Does annyone have any idea if the 84mm Carl Gustav is more powerful compared to the new 90mm Matardor? -
Just want to add my view here:
Matador LAW :
1) Against thin skinned & light armoured veh(IFV , light tank).
2) No tandem warhead, thus ineffective against ERA armoured veh.
3) Penetration is at least 450mm RHA as reported, Pzfaust 3 has a cone penetration ratio of 6.36, so Matador could have penetration up to 572mm RHA, since both rocket technology are from the same company.( my guessitimate)
4) Secondary anti bunker role and able to fire from confined space.
5) Effective range 400m
Additional info is where I have posted in the new forum.
84mmRR:
84 has many kind of ammunitions , thus it is quite muliti purpose, below are the interesting one.
1)FFV-751 Tandem-HEAT could penetrates 500mm behind ERA, thus effective against ERA armoured AFV.
2) FFV441 is a HE Sharpnel round, useful in a "lobbed" trajectory to 1,000m, which can be fused to fire on impact or airburst.
3) FFV502 is a dual-use HEDP round for anti bunker role.
In conclusion , the 84mm is more multi purpose and have much longer range than the Matador, especially the Tandem warhead which is effective against ERA thus much more effective AT weapon as compare to Matador. New warhead are still being developed for this weapon.
Currently, the Spike/Milan(depending on unit) are our dedicated ATGM system against MBT, the missile are much more costly,therefore for multi purpose role, our 84 will be much more cost-effective.
ST has developed the 14 kg SLWAGL is light enough for infantry personnel to operate. It could be deployed as another coy level support weapon as a two men portable weapon system.
With AMBS it could air bursting capability.
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I have some data from the net abt the protection level of T-72M1 which the PT-91 is based on.( Not sure how accurate it is, I believe they are all estimate)Originally posted by tvdog:So if we only need the 84mm to do an anti-tank role, is there a better alternative to the 84mm RR? Is this overly heavy and cumbersome weapon still capable of killing a modern Malaysian PT-91 for example? If not, then it's obsolete and should be phased out.
Does annyone have any idea if the 84mm Carl Gustav is more powerful compared to the new 90mm Matardor?
The protection level against CE round are Turret: 320-490 & Glacis: 490.
http://members.tripod.com/collinsj/protect.htm
The latest Tandem Heat round for 84RR is the FFV 751 which is capable of penetrate over 500mm RHA after ERA.
Therefore with this round, it should be abled to penetrate PT-91 with at least 50% success rate based on the data above.