SAF's new Light-AntiTank-Weapon : Matador
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Just to clarify some of the misconception
ORD in 1995.........Armour Infantry........
During my time, 84 RR tube and GPMG team are part of the platoon orbat. They belong to the Platoon HQ.
Converted to Ultra vehicle in 1997 serving ICT till now.
This time, 84 are organic to the company HQ orbat liao. Sitting in the 2IC/CSM vehicle. Depending on the mission, the 84 team(commander, loader and gunner) can act independently (as a block force) or they can be attached to individual platoon.
My 2 cents worth..... -
Gary>
Wah, 84mm sound damn "geng". So it's worth carrying that weight around still.
Slywong>
Your info is very interesting. But is this unique to armour infantry? Cos everyone got vehicle to ride.
Just to recap:
One thing is very sure is that the Matador LAW is only meant to replace the current 66mm Armbrust LAW. And I think at this moment that's all that'll happen.
As for the 84mm RR, does anyone have any idea if it will continue to serve on in the SAF? Most of the tubes look older than me, and I'm quite old. -
Well , the 84mm RR might still have some life yet,it all depend whether any new warhead is produced, current cone penetration ratio is abt 5.95 for FV-751 tandem warhead which has penetration of 500mm RHA behind ERA, with new rocket technology, the ratio could go up 7-8, which is abt 588-672mm RHA behind ERA but that is the limit with current technology.Originally posted by tvdog:Gary>
Wah, 84mm sound damn "geng". So it's worth carrying that weight around still.
Just to recap:
One thing is very sure is that the Matador LAW is only meant to replace the current 66mm Armbrust LAW. And I think at this moment that's all that'll happen.
As for the 84mm RR, does anyone have any idea if it will continue to serve on in the SAF? Most of the tubes look older than me, and I'm quite old.
And unless we are facing some latest tank like the T-84 , T-72B series to T-90 or any modern tanks of 90s,or new upgraded MBTs with latest laminated armour, the 84mmRR will still be relevant in this region.
If that happens, the 84mm RR will have to replace with something else, not the Matador in it current form, so to maintain the low cost antitank/direct fire support role for coy & below level in our infantry Bn. Pzfaust 3-T come to mind, German replacement for their 84mm RR. -
Don't be too sure. There are ups and downs. You try doing fire movement with matador on your back lor.Originally posted by snk86:84.........sebei heavy.......went open house tried it, now will pray like siao i would never ganna 84gunner....i rather carry matador for the rest of my life then carry the damned 84
84 is siong for the walking part, but they don't expect you to do fire movement with the 84. Most likely you'll move to the firebase and do some block mission while the section riflemen charge knolls and clear trenches. -
hahaha...
for reservist fire movement in PT kit already problem : ) -
someone mentioned about ST' SLWAGL being man-portable.
my understanding is this:
man-portable: travel distance by weapon team(s) seldom more than 500m. teams are vehicle bound. ie. our milan is man portable. try telling rifle companies to carry the thing around.
man-packable: instances where the weapon systems can be pack into different components can comfortably carry by riflemen over long distances.
or the weapon system itself is light enough to be deployable by an individual.
so can tell me if you mean man packable or portable?
can someone also tell me if 84mm is man packable or portable? -
The longest we ever carried the 84mm was for the 24km road march. everybody helped, the 16.1 kg weapon was rotated amoung the platoon guys.
Maybe the 84mm has an advantage over the Matador,
Our neighbours have the PT91 full of reactive armour, the 84 can fire a round of air burst with 900 ball bearings, exploding most of the armour, followed by a second HEAT round to penetrate. -
Even though we were AI, we went to Brunei for Jungle training........
Got to admire the 84 Gunners and the GPMG teams (mind you our GPMG team are made up of tankees - commanders, gunners and drivers)
I carried my M16, signal set, maps, etc etc and climb up Biang also sibeh siao liao.....those people still got to carry those things up and down Biang......
Lets give a round of applause to the 84/GPMG teams!!!
*clap clap.....* -
Maybe so.....Dont forget, the fire power of an AI pplatoon is already very awesome and overwhelming.......imagine this on the receiveing end of these...Originally posted by tvdog:Slywong>
Your info is very interesting. But is this unique to armour infantry? Cos everyone got vehicle to ride.
2 x 0.5 HMG
2 x 40 AGL
1 x 25mm cannon
4 x GPMG
plus all the infantry weapons..........
During assault, the AI PC can make the decision to dismount all the 3 vehicle MGs for fire support...... -
My bad, I was actually refering the SLWAGL as man-packable, becos of it's weight abt 14.1kg.
The 84mm RR itself is abt 14.2kg w/o ammo and it is a man-packable weapon in SAF inventory.
As for Milan, which the firing post weight more than 16kg is by right should be manportable in SAF inventory, by according to a friend from NS Guard unit, the crew manpacked it during the exe in Brunei, KPKB on the way until one of them actually threw the weapon onto the ground and challenged the PC to charge him cos he was damn blooding shagged up!!!!
One thing abt those carry heavy weapons thru the jungle & route march,is certainly not easy, as for LAW gunner carrying the 8.9kg Matador doing fire movemnt, charging up the hill etc in 4-5 contact pts, they will be most probably the slowest in the whole section at the end of the day. -
During my reservist, I carry the 12kg PRC 77 signal set. Plus an extra battery of 2kg that's a 14kg load.
I am the platoon runner so I am also expected to do fire movement and shxt.
One time so tired I can't jump out of a trench without help. We attacked FIBUA at night after marching 6km. Then at dawn attack FOFO. Training officer made us do the excercise twice. By the second time, my PC had to help me jump out of the trench. The GPMG gunner fell asleep while waiting for the order to fire.
If you keep in very good shape a 8.9kg LAW should be manageable but it is still too much weight to carry if you ask me. -
Dammn bloody heavy weapon. Built for ang moh and not us asians.
But cannot discount it's use.
During the Falklands war, an Argenetinain ship actually came near to shore to bombard the British troops on the beach, the fired the 84 at it and it hit above the waterline of the ship. The damaged ship quickly moved away out of range.
ANTI-SHIP!!
Also, a Pucara turbo prop attack aircraft began to attack the guardsman, they fired an 84 airburst, it did not hit but scared the hell out of the pilot which withdrew immediatly.
ANTI-Aircraft!!!
This weapon is useful that the current US Rangers are using the fibreglass version which only weighs 7kg. But heard it will crack after a feww hundred rounds. Guess SAF always wants to make sure their investemnt last 30 years.
A one shot was also used now by the US army called the AT-4. Like the Matardor, it's a fire and trow. But using the 84mm round.
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Last time the selection for 84 is based on character, the weirder or more uncooperative or geng you are you get 84.Originally posted by snk86:84.........sebei heavy.......went open house tried it, now will pray like siao i would never ganna 84gunner....i rather carry matador for the rest of my life then carry the damned 84
I heard that there was an 'incident' at a unit(can't remember where) a few years ago, a 84 gunner masterminded a company wide mutiny or rather protest, at the company line, everybody threw their 11b's down from the building. It was a hush hush thing.
After this incident they selected 84 based on people with strong character as well as strong backs. -
Yes a combat unit move on foot, but then when they assault they hit an objective like a hill full of trenches and enemy inside .. isn't that static?Originally posted by tvdog:That it is reloadable is not an advantage. The tube itself is too heavy as is the ammo. And after firing it you have to quickly run as enemy will zero in on you. So the disposable option is actually an advantage. After shooting, throw it away and run.
The last time I served (8 years ago), these were the weapons available to the Battalion's Support Company:
• 84mm Recoiless Rifle
• 81mm mortar
• 7.62mm GPMG
I see your point about the 84mm being available as emergency arty.
But the Support Company more or less moves on foot during combat. Unless in static defence. So everything including the ammo is man-packed. The rounds for the 84mm are fairly large (and looks heavy) so I think maybe each 84mm team can carry 3 to 6 rounds per gun?
So you would carry maybe 3 rounds HE and 3 rounds HEAT? I don't know... But that's a little too few rounds to use the 84 as arty.
Besides, I think that's what the 81mm mortars are for. It can also reach people hiding in trenches, the 84 cannot.
If you are talking about busting strong points like bunkers then the rifle section's 66mm LAW is good enough.
So I think that with the 90mm disposable LAW available at 2 per section,
the 84mm is redundant. They should replace the 84mm with more effective portable ATGWs.
81mm is mortar yes but you need to do adjustment, in a firefight this is hardly a luxury.
As I mentioned before as long as they carry 2 per coy we will need to be using it. If you know what or where "2" means you will tend to agree why they make us carry 4. -
A combat unit moving on foot means you route march several km with your heavy weapons and ammo with little chance of resupply during initial contact.Originally posted by arburthen?:Yes a combat unit move on foot, but then when they assault they hit an objective like a hill full of trenches and enemy inside .. isn't that static?
81mm is mortar yes but you need to do adjustment, in a firefight this is hardly a luxury.
As I mentioned before as long as they carry 2 per coy we will need to be using it. If you know what or where "2" means you will tend to agree why they make us carry 4.
So this means the ammo you can carry for the 84mm is limited. In such a case, would you prefer more anti-tank or anti-personnel ammo?
I tend to think I would leave the anti-personnnel role to the 81mm mortars, if those are available.
For example, if one 84mm team can only carry 6 rounds of ammo, I would have 4 anti-tank rounds and 2 anti-personnel rounds. I won't go 50/50. Even if intel indicate there are no enemy armour present, you don't want to be suddenly counter-attacked by enemy tanks. If this should happen, the 84mm is the only effective weapon against enemy armour. The mortars and the LAW might not be as good. So if you didn't bring enough anti-tank ammo for your 84mm, all is lost.
Static defence means you have already established a strong point or beach head meaning you can sit in your trench with a ready supply of ammo for the 84mm. Then you can have a good mix of anti-tank and anti-personnel ammo.
But still, the main role for the 84mm should be anti-tank, not personnel.
I'm sorry but I do not understand your last para. No idea what's what or what's where. -
[Maybe the 84mm has an advantage over the Matador,
Our neighbours have the PT91 full of reactive armour, the 84 can fire a round of air burst with 900 ball bearings, exploding most of the armour, followed by a second HEAT round to penetrate.
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Read from ADJ that the ERA of MAF's PT-91s will not be detonated by these air bursts or small arms fire. Only detonated by ATGMs and real Heat warheads. -
Last time the selection for 84 is based on character, the weirder or more uncooperative or geng you are you get 84.
Damn right about it. My section was made of rejects from the Platoons after BMT. Rebellious, proud and full of flowery hokkien language.
I heard that there was an 'incident' at a unit(can't remember where) a few years ago, a 84 gunner masterminded a company wide mutiny or rather protest, at the company line, everybody threw their 11b's down from the building. It was a hush hush thing.
After this incident they selected 84 based on people with strong character as well as strong backs
After 9 years of reservists, I am proud to say that the guys are still with me. Nobody geng. -
Help!
How to attach photos for you guys to see. -
If the photo is from own HDD, then you could use one of free image hosting site for example from here:Originally posted by AkiraDen:Help!
How to attach photos for you guys to see.
http://www.imageshack.us/index.php
Upload your image to that site, then link it back to here. -
i was Law gunner for mi SIT test leh.... knn.... Arti drill nia i can die.... somemore i small size guy... zZzz...Originally posted by I-like-flings(m):ya lor.. that is wat mi think too....it look as thick as 84 somemore... although not as heavy... but... 2 in each section???? good luck lor... -
small size big size also same one if u kena 84mm....the Law now is nothing...new one i dunno lahOriginally posted by Moonstriker:i was Law gunner for mi SIT test leh.... knn.... Arti drill nia i can die.... somemore i small size guy... zZzz...
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Thanks
Anti Armour guys, how do you feel when you see coming? -
Can we have a warhead full of black paint? so that once we got it on target, all the windows for the tankies to view thru' will be block. hahaha...
force them to open hatch, then fire an ATGM right ontop of the hatch. hahaha
unconventional weapons. hahaha
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no need at all... the top hatch is already the most lightly armoured part of the tank... if u can hit the top with an ATGM, its a sure kill... no need them to open it.Originally posted by 12qwaszx:Can we have a warhead full of black paint? so that once we got it on target, all the windows for the tankies to view thru' will be block. hahaha...
force them to open hatch, then fire an ATGM right ontop of the hatch. hahaha
unconventional weapons. hahaha -
simple.
use ur m-16 and fire like there's no tomorrow!