tracer rounds

• tvdog

  8 Sep 04, 23:11

  YES!!! Pulau "Sotong" life firing!!! Best fun I'd ever had in my whole army life.
  
  No need to dig trench cos trench all there already. The officers hinted to us that this will be an "easy" excercise so we prepared lots of food and even alcohol. So after the excercise at night we went to sleep on the xxx and had a picnic. (just removed some info there - tvdog.)
  
  The excercise itself was fun. Night firing with all the parachute flares, tracers. I borrowed the M203 gunner's weapon to fire curry powder rounds.
  
  The excercise simulate attempted landing by enemy force in high speed crafts.
  
  There was a day shoot and a night shoot. After the day shoot basically talk kok sing song. So someone with a 3-tonner "accidentally" knocked down a coconut tree. So all of us had coconuts to eat.
  
  For night firinf, our order of fire began with 81mm mortars firing flares. Then the 84mm started shooting. Very loud buggers. Then the GPMG start firing. The rest of us with 5.56mm weapons had to wait till the simulated enemy "approached" to within 300m before we start firing.
  
  Beautiful light show. Got money also cannot buy.
• specfore

  8 Sep 04, 23:22

  Unfortunately I am out of the "game" now. Even if I rejoin my reserve unit, it will only be P226 pistol and M16. No SAW, no LAW, no GPMG, no 81s....
  
  One of the good bits about reservist/ NS.... order pass down to expend all rounds , rather than leave it to Ammo i/c to record unused rounds.
• bismarck

  9 Sep 04, 09:04

  hmm sounds interesting,
  btw how to u know where to aim ? i mean hell it's night, not like SAF buys floodlights, how the hell do u know u are not shooting at yr commander's BMW ?
• tvdog

  9 Sep 04, 12:31

  Originally posted by bismarck:

  hmm sounds interesting,
  btw how to u know where to aim ? i mean hell it's night, not like SAF buys floodlights, how the hell do u know u are not shooting at yr commander's BMW ?

  I wrote:
  "For night firing, our order of fire began with 81mm mortars firing flares. "
  
  These are very bright flares that slowly descends like a very bright lightbulb trailing white smoke. They have a cute little parachute to slow their descend.
  
  Flares can be fired from mortars, hand-held pen guns or specialised flare pistols.
  
  The light the whole place up especially since it was the beach and sea and no vegetation to obscure view. Double-edged sword as it lights up your position to a certain extent for the enemy.
  
  And when all the tracer rounds start flying, this whole light show is hard to rival. Too bad tracers in SAF only comes in one colour. They should make tracers in many different colours. : )
• specfore

  9 Sep 04, 16:47

  Originally posted by bismarck:

  hmm sounds interesting,
  btw how to u know where to aim ? i mean hell it's night, not like SAF buys floodlights, how the hell do u know u are not shooting at yr commander's BMW ?

  Never will happen. SAF is very safety conscious. The safety officers will mark the extreme boudaries of your field of fire, either with white tape or red lanterns or something physical (e.g. do not shoot beyond that row of trees on your right 200m distant... etc etc).
  
  The so-called "enemy targets" could be different coloured cyalume sticks or protected red lights or in more sophisticated scenarios, they will be proper IR reflective targets. You are supposed to aim only at those enemy markers ... nothing else.
  
  A round travels very far ... and will still kill someone at its terminal velocity, so the SAF is very careful here. There will some kind of butt-stop at the end of the range (such as a hill or sand bags). Not sure about coastal/ Sudong LF, how they ensure the GPMG round does not go on and on and hit a ship or something.
• gary1910

  9 Sep 04, 17:36

  Originally posted by specfore:

  A round travels very far ... and will still kill someone at its terminal velocity, so the SAF is very careful here. There will some kind of butt-stop at the end of the range (such as a hill or sand bags). Not sure about coastal/ Sudong LF, how they ensure the GPMG round does not go on and on and hit a ship or something.

  You will be firing toward another island, I think is Pekan or something, where I think RSAF does it's LF.
  
  That will be the place where all the rounds will land if they manage to travel that far.
• specfore

  9 Sep 04, 19:23

  Thanks.
  
  
• pufferfish_79

  10 Sep 04, 01:01

  Originally posted by tvdog:

  Oh, I always thought the blinking red light was to simulate the enemy having a smoke. : )
  
  Anyway, has anyone ever fired tracers at night into the sea or any body of water?
  
  We did this during one beach defence excercise.
  
  This is what happens:
  
  You see the tracer travelling in a straight line towards the target in the sea. But as the lit bullet enters the water, the light kinda bounces upwards.
  
  All the tracer rounds whether GPMG 7.62 or 5.56 all behaved like this. Every one initially thought that the bullet is bouncing up as it hits the water.
  
  My guess is that the phosphrous coating or whatever causes the bullet to glow leaves the bullet the minute it enters the water. That's why we see this light bouncing up. The bullet still enters the water.

  I'm not too sure about the chemical coating separating from the tracer rd once it hit water.. the fact that u can see the tracer red light glow still travellling might be an indicator that it is not separated.IF separated, how the chemical travel in a straight line without a " body "
  
  Anyway ever seen a stick being half submerged in water..? it will appear "bend" rite.? it is due to the spectrum of light. Due to the difference in the medium ( surrounding ) that the tracer round travel once it hit water ( from less dense air to denser water ) , the way light is being reflected is affected. That explains the " bent " stick when half submerged in water and probably why all the 5.56,7.62 tracer rds all appear the way you mentioned.
  
  Just my $0.02 worth
• tvdog

  10 Sep 04, 01:52

  Originally posted by pufferfish_79:

  I'm not too sure about the chemical coating separating from the tracer rd once it hit water.. the fact that u can see the tracer red light glow still travellling might be an indicator that it is not separated.IF separated, how the chemical travel in a straight line without a " body "
  
  Anyway ever seen a stick being half submerged in water..? it will appear "bend" rite.? it is due to the spectrum of light. Due to the difference in the medium ( surrounding ) that the tracer round travel once it hit water ( from less dense air to denser water ) , the way light is being reflected is affected. That explains the " bent " stick when half submerged in water and probably why all the 5.56,7.62 tracer rds all appear the way you mentioned.
  
  Just my $0.02 worth

  Ummm... I was there, I was shooting the tracers, and all of us saw the lights bouncing UPWARDS as they hit the water and then extinguishing. They didn't enter the water at all.
  
  We weren't at such a high angle where your "bent" stick (it's called light refraction) theory could apply. We were in a trench on the beach, not up on a hill, and our rounds hit the water at about 100 to 200m away from our positions.
  
  We're not so kampong we can't tell the difference between something bouncing up several feet into the air and light refraction lah.
  
  The tracer element is not a integral part of the bullet. Itis basically a chemical coating on the tip of the bullet. It burns because the bullet is red hot as it leaves the barrel - thus heating up this chemical coating. But as the bullet enters the water, the rapid change in temperature causes the red hot liquid phosphorous coating to part with the bullet.
• bismarck

  10 Sep 04, 13:03

  Originally posted by tvdog:

  I wrote:
  "For night firing, our order of fire began with 81mm mortars firing flares. "
  
  These are very bright flares that slowly descends like a very bright lightbulb trailing white smoke. They have a cute little parachute to slow their descend.
  
  Flares can be fired from mortars, hand-held pen guns or specialised flare pistols.
  
  The light the whole place up especially since it was the beach and sea and no vegetation to obscure view. Double-edged sword as it lights up your position to a certain extent for the enemy.
  
  And when all the tracer rounds start flying, this whole light show is hard to rival. Too bad tracers in SAF only comes in one colour. They should make tracers in many different colours. : )

  orh...i see..
  
• gary1910

  10 Sep 04, 16:22

  I actually I have seen the disintegrated part of the tracer bounce 2-3 time over the water like when one throw a flat rock over the water.
  
  It is certainly not a optical illusion due to water reflection of light.
• tvdog

  10 Sep 04, 19:06

  Gary>
  
  Spot on, dude. That was something, wasn't it.
  
  But did you guys encounter scorpions while there in the trenches?
• pufferfish_79

  12 Sep 04, 14:38

  Originally posted by tvdog:

  Ummm... I was there, I was shooting the tracers, and all of us saw the lights bouncing UPWARDS as they hit the water and then extinguishing. They didn't enter the water at all.
  
  We weren't at such a high angle where your "bent" stick (it's called light refraction) theory could apply. We were in a trench on the beach, not up on a hill, and our rounds hit the water at about 100 to 200m away from our positions.
  
  We're not so kampong we can't tell the difference between something bouncing up several feet into the air and light refraction lah.
  
  The tracer element is not a integral part of the bullet. Itis basically a chemical coating on the tip of the bullet. It burns because the bullet is red hot as it leaves the barrel - thus heating up this chemical coating. But as the bullet enters the water, the rapid change in temperature causes the red hot liquid phosphorous coating to part with the bullet.

  Thanks for ur clarification.... chey.. i tot the reflection of the tracer is within the water body.... din know it was bounced off into the air....
• baer

  13 Sep 04, 15:33

  Ha!ha! for the uninitated.
  
  At Sudong, the tracer rounds of the GPMG travel at great speeds and then bounces off the water and seem to travel upwards (which they do so at a rather different angle from "angle of entry").
  
  Like a stone skipping accross the water, the round never actually enters the water. At the speed of the bullet travelling, the water acts like a concrete surface which does not happend for the M-16 rounds due to the distance (as well as the tracer being too small to spot travelling beyond 500m).
  
  81mm motar fires illum rounds which last up to 3.5 minutes which act like giant handheld flares (which last only 1 minute, forgot what they're called). Relook at you vietnam movies (full metal jacket etc.) where the 81mm fires illum when the gooks are on the wire. Handhelds are a more recent introduction.
• tvdog

  13 Sep 04, 23:29

  Originally posted by baer:

  Ha!ha! for the uninitated.
  
  At Sudong, the tracer rounds of the GPMG travel at great speeds and then bounces off the water and seem to travel upwards (which they do so at a rather different angle from "angle of entry").
  
  Like a stone skipping accross the water, the round never actually enters the water. At the speed of the bullet travelling, the water acts like a concrete surface which does not happend for the M-16 rounds due to the distance (as well as the tracer being too small to spot travelling beyond 500m).
  

  Oi, who is "uninitiated"? You is it?
  
  That you actually believe that the thousands or rounds we fired that day and night all ricochet off the water you must be flooming OUT OF YOUR MIND.
  
  Have you ever fired a weapon? Sorry to burst your bubble but the bullet entered the water. And if you're in the water you'll be so full of holes like your little theory.
  
  This bouncing effect is observed for BOTH 7.62 and 5.56 rounds. And another thing, we don't fire M-16 beyond 300m. The GPMG fire as the "enemny" ia at 500m onwards. M-16 guys don't fire until the "enemy" are at 300m onwards. Out M-16 targets are placed at the 300m and below. So what you say about not being able to spot the M16 tracer beyond 500m is absolute rubbish.
• baer

  14 Sep 04, 11:37

  Initated I am.
  
  Fired from Sudong, GMPG qualified what else. (500m was an offhand mark, I stand corrected).
  
  Not all the rounds enter the water (most do), those at a flat enuff angle and travelling at great speeds will skip (not bounce).
  
  I know that the M-16 is not intended to first until command given (our was 'Red 3' or somthing like that) when the 'target' was supposed to be between 150 to 50 m from shore (not 300m), just some clown 'misfired' thinking Red 2 was his cue.
  
  M-16 tracer cannot skip when fired from P. Sudong, bcos, M-16 targets are too close (100m), angle too steep, compared to GMPG firing at 600+m, (maybe) round too small, not enuff surface area to skip (that's why flat smooth stones skip better).
  
  Anyway the rounds skip once, tracer flies into the night sky.
  
  
• spencer99

  14 Sep 04, 12:13

  Have you ever poke a straight stick into the water and see how it appears to be "bent".
  
  When the rounds hit the water, it will go straight. But from the outside, when we look at the light, it appear to be "deflected" or bent....
  
  I think what most of you seeing is a optical illusion.
  
• tvdog

  14 Sep 04, 23:51

  If only I can place an illustration here. It's beginning to sound like we're talking about UFOs with just as many conflicting theories.
  
  Anyway, let me try and describe the path of the tracer hitting the water.
  
  Fire! tracer travels straight at great speed. Hits water and suddenly BOUNCES upwards at an almost 90 degree angle for 3 or 4 feet into the air and then extinguishing. When it bounces upwards the speed is not fast like a bullet at all.
  
  So please stop talking about the bullet bounce or got deflected or anything.
  
  It is just the phosphorous liquid that is bouncing upwards, NOT the bullet.