Would you be a terrorist?
-
One man's meat is another man's poison.
Terrorist to you may be someone's patriot.
But to end this we must try and understand why the Chechens in Russia did waht they did.
To understand one person's actions, no matter how illogical, first try to put yourself in their shoes.
Here is an imaginary scenario:
Imagine if you're a young man in Singapore 1942 occupied by the Japs.
The Japs are killing Singaporeans brutally every day. Remember all the torture, machinegunning, cutting off heads and raping of women and children?
You see dead Singaporeans, tortured Singaporeans and perhaps your family, relatives and friends have suffered casualties.
You and fellow Singaporean young men and women are putting up armed resistance. But the Japs are too powerful and a lot of you die for very few Japs killed. And for every armed action you take, the Japs kill even more innocent Singaporeans in revenge.
The fight isn't going well. No other nation is giving you any outside support and some of your comrades - including our very important resistance leader Lim Bo Seng - are held prisoner by the Japs. Possibly to be executed soon.
One day your resistance group leader orders you to go to Japan and take a school hostage. The goal is to bring attention to the sufferings of Singapore and our fight for freedom. You also want to make a last ditch effort to secure the release of Lim Bo Seng and other freedom fighters before their execution, which will surely dinish off the resistance.
The chance the Japanese will agree is very slim. But if they don't then they must be prepared that we will kill our Japanese hostages.
You would most definitely make the ultimate sacrifice and have to be prepared to kill your hostages. The Japanese people, you must remember, support their Emperor and the war effort. A lot of the brutal Japanese soldiers are young lads, much like the kids you might have to kill in Japan. And Japanese kids one day become Japanese soldiers.
So, the million dollar question is: would you go? Would you want to make a patriotic sacrifice for Singapore and possibly save Lim Bo Seng? -
your using the analogy of chechens and russians.
The russians don't rape chechen women..
WELL there's a VERY HUGE DIFFERENCE!
Japan occupied other countries whereelse Russia is solving a civil
war!
if put china on the same shoes with taiwan resistance fighter..they will do the same -
terrorist sucks!!
-
EH, if we kill the jap children..
PPLE IN BAR WILL PROTEST
cause singapore and alot of countries no supply of jap porn..
i will be the next war criminal !
i will never touch japanese children even if war..rather take them out one by one or use guerilla tactics AGAINST TROOPS only..
1.never ever kill a civilian in a war.
its the troops who attack us,must bear in mind in the first place =) -
u kill 5...they kill 10...when will it ever stops??
-
u kill 5...they kill 10...when will it ever stops??
-
Duh.... did I say your mission is specifically to kill civilians.
You desperate mission is to save the life of a very important resistance leader of Singapore. He is about to be executed soon. Your mission is to secure his release. Without him the Singapore resistance movement is finished. -
stupid, why go on a mission which u will die?
No leader in planning will go on a suicide mission cuz it is very dumb LOL..
pple who go on suicide mission ...haha sad for them..
cause if u die u wun see whether u win or u lose..
nope, i rather kidnap the emperor palace rather then to kill kids.
defeats the agenda in the 1st place.
still no killing of kids or civilians. kidnapping/killing is VERY VERY wrong,unless the very existence of your state and yourself is ..100% ALIVE! -
SBKS>
Stupid is you, my dear boy... -
In life.....everything is a 2 way street.
ppl dun just be terrorists for no reason...... -
I think using human bomb is the most effective ways to kill enemies for terrorist. But i wonder why they got so much courage to be a suicide bomber?? Why they wanna leave their family n relatives behind...Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:stupid, why go on a mission which u will die?
No leader in planning will go on a suicide mission cuz it is very dumb LOL..
pple who go on suicide mission ...haha sad for them..
cause if u die u wun see whether u win or u lose..
nope, i rather kidnap the emperor palace rather then to kill kids.
defeats the agenda in the 1st place.
still no killing of kids or civilians. kidnapping/killing is VERY VERY wrong,unless the very existence of your state and yourself is ..100% ALIVE!
Is it the hatred against US is so much tat they dun mind using their own life to eliminate n terror the US. -
No lah, guns are too heavy for me to carry around. Plus i don't suit the femme fatale look.
-
Personally I don't think LBS would want anyone to risk his life to save his & he would rather die then have people rescue him through the use of children as hostages.
Tvdog, you've single handedly dishonour all freedom fighters around the world especially those from WW II. You've tried to merge the defination of a terrorist & a freedom fighter as a single entity thereby making the actions of the terrorist seems almost justifiable.
Its true, some of the tactics used by freedom fighters are not much different then that of a terrorist. However, freedom fighters have always target political leaders, leaders in the economic world, policemen & military personnel. They try never to involve civilians into the their fight as their reason for fighting is for the people. Just check the IRA record, they maybe classified as terrorist by the British government but they have never shot at childrens or blow them up. IRA's targets have always been British government related. So IRA can be consider as Freedom fighters.
Fidel Castro would probably chew his cigar if he knew you were trying to associate him to a terrorist who kills children.
Todays terrorist as we all know, have a no-holds-bar to who they can use as targets or who they can kill as long as it rattles the world. Take the recent Jarkarta bombing, what did they got out of it? No Australian or foreign civilian were killed, only 8 INDONESIANs were killed. And they claimed to fight for the Indonesian people.
A freedom fighter use of terror is aim at terrorizing the government, while a todays terrorist is aim at not only the government but everyone who doesn't submit to them.
And so to answer your question, no I would not be a terrorist to save even my own kin. I would, however, be a sniper & put a bullet to LBS to end his missery. His death would have been more honourable. -
who the hell wanna be a terrorist , when u can just forget everythingOriginally posted by tvdog:SBKS>
Stupid is you, my dear boy...
and go somemore and relax before dying??
Furthermore , Lim Bo Seng only attacked the Jap Soldiers and
comparing lim bo seng to osama is wrong.
Same thing with comparing Sun Yat Sen , a freedom fighter for the chinese people , and people who fought for China during opium war to free chinese people from foreign oppression and racism.
Robin Hood would also be a terrorist if u were to classify him under that category , he challenged the law broke the law and stole money to help the poor , does it make him a illegal robber and to be arrested by the Law?
Force136 isn't al-qaeda, their ultimate goal is to push back Japanese invasion ,
and free singaporeans who gets tortured by Japanese , since when did the americans torture anyone PRIOR to September 11?
Do remember that American only spread westernism + occupy some bases in middle east and support israel and neither did it conquer OR torture or
kill people using kempeitai prior to September 11 when the terrorist war starts
Hope u know whats the key difference now, LBS would have never allowed the resistance fighters to kill school children , imagine the japanese soldiers have children too , if we wanna kill , the children is innocent in times of war ,
what does he know? Who says he is going to grow up to be a soldier?
The reason why he grows up to be a soldier is because we must eliminate the japanese soldiers who is going to teach him to be a soldier.
Hope you understand .
Osama , if he had done it against any military installations , might have been a freedom fighter, but he has done it against civilians, which only spurs anger.
Although both military and civilians are humans too, 1 is armed ,1 is un-armed
look at what he is spreading..WAR against almost every country in the world..
as if everyone owes him something or what..
Even normal muslims get killed.. Spain and Indonesia did not do anything to occupy or kill anyone..why did terrorist bombing still occur??
Did the ordinary wifes and husbands who were earning money is a crime?
France did not support the Iraq war and see what happens..
Attacks against military and Attacks against civilian is two different thing.
Attacks against military = WAR
Attacks against civilian = TERRORISM
Aniwae, do u think LBS will support the kidnapping of japanese children?
it only fails to achieve anything, wanna do stuff, do big one..
Whats the point of bombing the twin towers, only to have USA to invade both countries and knowing that u will lose?
For everything,there's a cause and effect.. Now the world is supporting USA,
Before september 11, Israel might be wrong..but after September 11,
on the basis of fighting terrorism..freedom fighters in palestine..sadly got classified as terrorists..got quelled..
In directly , by doing this.. he is pointing his sword at himself..
Good planning , poor fore sight..
Now USA gonna have oil from 2 countries..
Just look at the amount of countries with USA forces.. -
The purpose of saving LBS, sigh.... is not a personal favour to him LAHHHH......
Wah low eh...
LBS is a valuable resistance commander your mission is a last ditch attempt to rescue him so he can continue to LEAD the resistance. YOU ARE NOT DOING THIS ON YOUR OWN INITITATIVE. Your commander is ORDERING YOU TO DO IT - WILL YOU DO IT OR NOT?
Such a simple question.
When you belong to a military organisation can you ignore orders to go on a rescue mission and AND TAKE THE INITIATIVE TO KILL LBS to save him from suffering!!??? sigh...
So no need to be so righteous and attack me for "discrediting freedom fighters" and get off your white horse lah...
I never said I was for or against doing it. I'm just trying to say that some people are faced with difficult choices every day and they DO NOT LIVE IN A BLACK AND WHITE WORLD LIKE WE DO IN SINGAPORE.
But anyway, please close this thread as this is very frustrating.
I know it is very hard for any of us to understand the rage people feel when their family is blown up by bombs and then wanting to take revenge in whatever ways they can. I can't imagine either but I see these newsclips of Iraqis or Palestinians holding dead or mangled children and you begin to understand why some of them strap bombs onto themselves and go kill enemy soldiers or civilians. Even children. -
Where the fcuk did I compare Lim Bo Seng to Osama? Eh, go away to some other thread lah. I've painted too complicated a situation and you are barking up the wrong tree lah... So let's close this thread and forget the whole thing OK? Go to other thread where it's not so taxing on your brain, you are clearly NOT getting it.Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:Furthermore , Lim Bo Seng only attacked the Jap Soldiers and
comparing lim bo seng to osama is wrong. -
tvdog, *lol* you sound damn pek chek with our resident clown! Remember, letting him get to you means that he has is achieving his meagre (and pointless) objectives in life.
Anyway, in response to your question... does the means justify your end? and does this mean ANY course of action to achieve your desired outcome? i don't think so..... could there have been anyway to change the equation to achieve the desired outcome?
Given a choice, yes i'm going to have to take somebody hostage. It wouldn't be children and women though. If possible, it would be military personnel, prob someone high ranking enough to draw attention. I would not take anyone hostage to "make a statement or highlight the suffering of women/children", this reasoning and rationale to me is too superficial and does not warrant a hostage situation. But if i had to take a political/military figure hostage IN EXCHANGE for one of mine, yes i would do it.
What seperates a terrorist from a freedom fighter? ideals? methods of fighting? race perhaps? (don't laugh about that race bit, you and i know that if someone is from the middle eastern region they would be labelled as terrorists STRAIGHTAWAY) I think the difference is simply is the PUBLIC PERCEPTION of your group of freedom fighters/terrorists. You may have started out as freedom fighters, but because of your tactics and fallout from possible situations, end up being labelled as terrorists. In my opinion, that was what happened to the Basque Separatists, once seen and welcomed by the general population as freedom fighters, now seen as ruthless terrorists despised by all.
P.S. if i were some low-level foot soldier, i would refuse to take part in any situation involving children much less kill any. I don't believe in blind faith nor partaking in group-think mentality of monkey see monkey do. Doing it in full knowledge that i would be labelled a "chicken-shit" or "bo-chee" by my peers. Even as a soldier where i was expected to follow commands to the letter, i did not follow blindly (something which caused my boss some stress when i was an NSF.. har har! luckily he was quite patient). -
Tvdog, you must've really missed out on the SAF TV adds that said it wanted thinking soldiers.
So, if you are able to refer to any military law manual from whatever service, you'll find that there is a law that allows a soldier, sailor, etc, to disobey a superior's order if the superior officer is deem to be of unstable mind at the time of issuing the order. ( you've go to get the manual for the exact wordings for it )
Then theres also the rights of the soldier in the field, if he deems the rescue to be unwise, he has the right to abort the mission( Of course, you stand a chance of facing a court marshal if your judgement turns out to be wrong )
-
You know the commanders carry pistols; for soldier who disobey during war time.Originally posted by John Ching:Then theres also the rights of the soldier in the field, if he deems the rescue to be unwise, he has the right to abort the mission( Of course, you stand a chance of facing a court marshal if your judgement turns out to be wrong ) 
-
You are wrong againOriginally posted by SibeiSuayKia:since when did the americans torture anyone PRIOR to September 11? -
How should i classify u as?Originally posted by John Ching:I would, however, be a sniper & put a bullet to LBS to end his missery. His death would have been more honourable. -
You know the Soldiers Carry SAR-21 during war time,Originally posted by SnowFlag:You know the commanders carry pistols; for soldier who disobey during war time.
for Commanders who refuse to learn -
u sure about the above?Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:your using the analogy of chechens and russians.
The russians don't rape chechen women..
WELL there's a VERY HUGE DIFFERENCE! -
the question here is, LBS is not at hand to decide if he should be rescued thru such means or not. The imaginary leader of the resistance decides on this drastic measure to save him. What then?Originally posted by John Ching:Personally I don't think LBS would want anyone to risk his life to save his & he would rather die then have people rescue him through the use of children as hostages.
the point tvdog is making is a good one. there r 2 sides to a coin. yes what the chec terrorists did were wrong. but yes, they have a reason for what they did too. -
Pek Chek is an understatement.
But thank you guys for finally making some sensible posts. For a minute there I thought I had just written a load of rubbish nobody can understand.
If I were to answer the question myself...
YES, I would agree to go for the mission. YES, the ends does justify the means.
Why? Do I want to kill women and children?
Of course not. Beisdes, the point is NOT to kill the women and children. It is to use them to bargain for the life of LBS.
But even if I don't go, the commander will someone else to go. So this suicide terrorist mission is going ahead with or without me. But if I am there, I won't be shooting at the hostages. So with me there there will be one less gun firing at women and children.
The main reason I would go is because I would do what it takes to continue to fight for the freedom of my country. Preventing the execution of LBS by the Japs is one sure way the fight will go on. If we don't win our freedom, then the Japs will continue to slaughter innocent Singaporeans for a long time to come.
And if the Japs come to their senses, then no women or children need to get hurt during the mission. We would only release the hostages and surrender after LBS is back in the hands of the resistance forces. Of course, none of us hostage takers should expect to go home alive.