SAF Combat Survival course
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DISCLAIMER: Not in anyway a prior member of any elite unit.
Read the straits times today?
I feel that the training is "weak", compared to foreign "POW survival" courses.
(Being way too many names, POW survival will do)
Listed in the article:
no longer than 10 minutes
heads submerged in water for up to 20 secs.
forced to roll in pool of mud
carrying jerry cans of water
only supposed to hose trainees with cold water
Compared to the Uk SAS course:
Which includes:
head covered with sack
placed in a small cage and said cage is hammered repeatedly
made to stand, while cars are driven around trainee
(There is more, but my SAS vcd is lost for now.)
Short version: Foriegn armies push the limits of safety and legality in their POW survival courses.
While our own course seems like a walk in the park to them.
Flames? Comments? Arrows?
Please do. -
Firstly, we are a conscript army.While I do agree that a POW survival and evasion course needs to be very rigourous,mentally and physically draining.It is not right to put someone who has no say in that matter through something potentially life-threatening.Of course, you might say, why not leave the NSFs out of this, but the reality is that we do not have a large population base to afford to pick AND choose fellows for our special forces.If you were a parent, would you sit lightly by and see your son be forced into NS, which you might have already accpet as a necessary evil, then furthermore see him thrown into a SAS-like course without him having any say in the matter?
Think about it.
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Parents are a powerful force to contend with. Just look at our BMT today lah. Compared to the 90s it is damn soft. But what to do? Don't make it soft & parents will kao pei.
Nothing is more scary than a horde of parents who kao pei. So SAF like it or not lan lan everything must soften. I heard even Ranger training these days is soft, compared to last time. -
Wait a minute.Originally posted by LazerLordz:Firstly, we are a conscript army.
While I do agree that a POW survival and evasion course needs to be very rigourous,mentally and physically draining.
It is not right to put someone who has no say in that matter through something potentially life-threatening.
Think about it.
Combat Survival.
So.... i shall be trained to survive:
no longer than 10 minutes interrogation
rolling in mud
jerry can carrying
cold water hosing.
Hmm. Lightly educated guess:
So under interrogation, i have to hold out for 600 seconds?
I have to carry jerry cans, which recruits and NSF on fatigue duty do a lot anyway?
I'll be hosed with cold water? Some might even enjoy it.
It makes combat survival an oxymoron.
We shall not need to go into details of POW treatment, but suffice to say, the Geneva Conventions will likely not be a great factor.
And i wonder why we venerate foreign armed forces so much. Hmm.
It may have something to do with the fact that an LCP there has as much training as our 3SG.
Last i knew, opting for Elite units was a voluntary decision. Is it still a voluntary decision? -
How about a horde of hooded enemies who start broadcasting videos of "interesting" things they do to SAF POWs?Originally posted by esesce:Nothing is more scary than a horde of parents who kao pei.
How about hordes of captured POWs confessing to "crimes done by our *insert yucky word* state*?
How about videos of hordes of POWs broken and whimpering?
So if such things ever happen, will the parents start kao peing: *copulate with your mother genitalia lah*, why you never train my son to endure such thing?
Recongnise the hokkien expletive? -
have u went thru the CSC?
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Did you perchance read the DISCLAIMER.Originally posted by RaTtY81:have u went thru the CSC? -
if u nvr went thru the course how do u noe its"weak" compared to overseas CSC courses...
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The gist of my rant here is:
Are we really training up the men to the expected standards of the aggressors?
Any one who has been through BMT knows the very heavy ammunition control. So heavy that we often wondered, if we're under attack right now, where are we getting the ammo from?
Could we ever stand up to the SAS ritual of placing a officer between two targets, in a darkened room, and then having two SAS operators burst in and fire full auto?
If the aggressors have such training, it'd be a pushover on the field.
No i have not been through the CSC, but i discussed this when i was still active with a GDS officer.
Addendum: I used to be an ASA -
WHEN that happens then parents will appreciate. But it has not happened so far, therefore parents will not accept it. So what are you gonna do? Convince parents its for their kid's own good.Originally posted by Johnston:How about a horde of hooded enemies who start broadcasting videos of "interesting" things they do to SAF POWs?
How about hordes of captured POWs confessing to "crimes done by our *insert yucky word* state*?
How about videos of hordes of POWs broken and whimpering?
So if such things ever happen, will the parents start kao peing: *copulate with your mother genitalia lah*, why you never train my son to endure such thing? Recongnise the hokkien expletive?
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Simple.Originally posted by RaTtY81:if u nvr went thru the course how do u noe its"weak" compared to overseas CSC courses...
By the available "open source" information.
Now, if we infer that 5% of the actual course is broadcasted to the public, we can infer what the 95% is like.
Going by this principle, you arrive at the conclusion that foreign courses are superior.
Also because certain courses have long being lauded for being effective: an example which is the UK SAS course.
I dare say until the incident, the rank and file did not know of such an course, nor indeed, did the rest of the SOF community.
By "know" , i mean as in know it by simple mention. Example:
Q
id you know that "Course A" by "country B" is damn tough?
A: Yeah, it's famous for that. -
yeah, that's a civilian problem.Originally posted by esesce:WHEN that happens then parents will appreciate. But it has not happened so far, therefore parents will not accept it. So what are you gonna do? Convince parents its for their kid's own good.
During peacetime, complain about the army.
During incidents, and after, complain why the army wasn't good enough.
And i wonder what the fathers have been doing.
Decades of NS, and the male population is still not tuned to our precarious position and the superficiality of the basic training?
The expression "wayang" was very prevalent in my BMT coy.
I shall not speak more. -
Aiyoh...
Parents kpkb, later write to minister, then minister raise in govt, then end up who kenna? The officers and ppl in charge of such training...
It's political in a sense....if you know what i mean... -
Well, since you put it that way, are you trying to say that the value of a personal conscious, choice to join the special forces is no different than mere conscription.The crux of this issue here is not how well we conduct an escape and evasion course, but rather the inherent limits we face in conducting it due to certain political and socio-economic factors.No doubt the army is easily paralysed by political decisions, but do we have a choice?No.So, it's better to think of a better alternative rather than blaming the parents for having their entitled moral authority when their own flesh and blood is concerned.Too much concentration of State authority is dangerous and can undermime the natural influence a family has over her progeny.
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Frankly speaking,i think its a BULLSHIT course
Who can really survive a REAL prisoner-of-war treatment?
Geneva law are also BULLSHIT
Btw,please remember that most singapore guy are not voluntary soldiers...
Talk is cheap...or rather free... -
for ur info... i saw my platoon mates roll in the mud during field camp during tactical movement/tekan session..
lucky i was on attB tat day..
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No comment.Originally posted by kY|e-_-o:for ur info... i saw my platoon mates roll in the mud during field camp during tactical movement/tekan session..
lucky i was on attB tat day..
I've rolled in the mud myself during fire movement. -
no one can endure the treatments of POW in times of war..and they wouldnt go by the Geneva law..what give human rights..medical services.etc.bulls**t
from saf point of views..it just to give an brief insights on what captured personnels may face..there are a lot more treatment that we can even imagined..just like iraq case.. -
Bah, POW courses are mostly wayang, even in the so called "tough" armed forces.
The truth of the matter is, when you are a real POW, you suck thumb have to endure the torture, or else, too bad you're dead. In the end, when you are POW, there's little you can really do about your situtation. POW courses are nice, but affect the outcome little. Broken and whimpering on TV? There's no shame in being scared when you're a POW.
In the end, tougher soldiers are nice, but the basic requirement of a soldier is to get to the position to project firepower in a controlled manner so as to achieve the victory conditions. There are many ways to achieve this. In the end, you can create a very tough, high attrition rate course to create tough soldiers but in the end the gain in combat effectiveness is marginal and certainly not worth the cost and energy put into training such soldiers.
As long as a soldier can be basically fit to survive in the field, and do his job, that's about as good as you can get. Far more energy can be put into making him do his job smarter, rather then harder, to use the stuff between his ears to survive rather then sheer brawn.
Adolf believed that the soft children of american democracy would be little match for the tough, disciplined professional soldiers of nazi germany. He guessed wrongly. In the end, plenty of factors determine how to win a war, and the toughness of the troops, while nice, is something that history has shown time and time again, can be made up for if you have other factors. In the end it's about what's most effective. It's nice to have a tough army, but is it pratical? Given our current situtation? -
totally agree, i suppose Lim Bo Seng din undergo any POW course, did he ?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Bah, POW courses are mostly wayang, even in the so called "tough" armed forces.
The truth of the matter is, when you are a real POW, you suck thumb have to endure the torture, or else, too bad you're dead. In the end, when you are POW, there's little you can really do about your situtation. POW courses are nice, but affect the outcome little. Broken and whimpering on TV? There's no shame in being scared when you're a POW.
In the end, tougher soldiers are nice, but the basic requirement of a soldier is to get to the position to project firepower in a controlled manner so as to achieve the victory conditions. There are many ways to achieve this. In the end, you can create a very tough, high attrition rate course to create tough soldiers but in the end the gain in combat effectiveness is marginal and certainly not worth the cost and energy put into training such soldiers.
As long as a soldier can be basically fit to survive in the field, and do his job, that's about as good as you can get. Far more energy can be put into making him do his job smarter, rather then harder, to use the stuff between his ears to survive rather then sheer brawn.
Adolf believed that the soft children of american democracy would be little match for the tough, disciplined professional soldiers of nazi germany. He guessed wrongly. In the end, plenty of factors determine how to win a war, and the toughness of the troops, while nice, is something that history has shown time and time again, can be made up for if you have other factors. In the end it's about what's most effective. It's nice to have a tough army, but is it pratical? Given our current situtation?
Yet he held on to his last breath, sometimes it may not be the training that determines the outcome, the person's heart and belief may prove to be the deciding factor .... -
Please lah, the whole topic is like the oft-used metaphor of (myopically) comparing the colour of parachutes when jumping out of the plane.
Combat Survival course is super-siong.
POW courses are also super-siong.
But neither can ever adequately simulate a torturing session by a hostile enemy fishing for information in a real war. They won't necessarily carry cards respecting the Geneva Conventions. -
When war actually breaks out, everyone screws the Geneva Convention lah. Even the US screws it & justifies doing so by saying those are unlawful combatants not POWs. Watever!!
Point being, if they want to extract info from you, they will not stop at making you carry jerry cans, roll in mud or splash you with a hose. They'd gladly clobber you with a baseball bat or shove a broomstick up your arse. Now how are you gonna train for that? But having said that, I guess having some form of training is better than none at all.
Some ppl have questioned whether ALL training done by SAF is realistic or not. Well I can't comment on that since I'm only a small fry in the establishment. But think about it from the other point of view. If training is TOO realisitic & casualty figures hit the roof, what's gonna happen?
Ppl are gonna protest. Parents are gonna make noise. And ultimately they'll have no choice but to soften the training. And IMHO that's what's been happening. I did my BMT in 1996 under 3 BTS & comparing that to today's BMT, I can already see a massive softening.
I'm not from combat side so I don't know how true this is, but I heard that SAF seldom does live firing. Its mostly blanks & sometimes even "universal rounds" which I feel is the biggest joke of all.
In some other countries' armed forces, they use live rounds all the time. I read from this SOF website, can't remember if its Philipines or Indonesia though. But over there, its live rounds & explosives all the way & it is considered normal & "acceptable" to have trainees dying as part of their training.
What do you think would happen if we implement that here? Oh yes, it'll probably "toughen" us up a lot. But think of the backlash from the public esp the parents. -
:/
2IC said to us, when we slack in taking cover: "smelly mother genitalia! you know in Israel they dont need to teach how to take cover? They ji tao use live round and fire!"
If real war is E=MC2,
we are now learning the basics, while others are learning alegebra. -
We're lucky that we don't have a neighbour like China always saying "you damn rebel island you, one day i will invade you." Compare the reaction of Taiwanese to their army. And how about ours?Originally posted by esesce:I'm not from combat side so I don't know how true this is, but I heard that SAF seldom does live firing. Its mostly blanks & sometimes even "universal rounds" which I feel is the biggest joke of all.
What do you think would happen if we implement that here? Oh yes, it'll probably "toughen" us up a lot. But think of the backlash from the public esp the parents.
We have a lack of a visible aggressor.
Yes, i can think of the backlash. I can also think of the outrage if we ever fight a real battle, and videos start making their way back. For a good example, one need only point to Somalia. -
To those who are against the idea of CSC, or who are ignorant of the process (ie, never went through it).
Yes, you do have a choice. But to a certain extent, and its not an easy choice to make. But I don't think it is wise for anyone to reveal it here. Those here who have gone through it should appreciate the secrecy of the entire process. So please, don't shame your parent units.
As for those who went through it and never found a good reason to support it's continued existence: You will probably not be sent on an important mission. As I have read in the papers in the forum from one of the writers (he went through it twice, voluntarily); the whole idea of CSC is to not just inform the soldiers of the common sense that one does not want to be caught, it is to DRILL it into their heads. Training, is about drilling. It is to prepare the soldiers to make the right decisions, and to let them rehearse their roles as POWs.
Disclaimer? Here's what I think. Declaring that you are not someone's blood brother doesn't put one in a position to undermine the decision of that person's parents. In fact it would put one in a position that discourages one to do that.
The officer died as a result of very bad judgement on the part of the trainers and the overall miscommunication through the ranks regarding training procedures. That is all I understand of it. If one were to discredit the value of CSC, it would not be unimagineable that the next thing on the list of suggestions would be the total exemption of military training in NS, which is happening right here.