Final Debunking of the Pistol Myth
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If we have the Olympic pistol event medallist armed with a pistol go up against an average "just BMT POP" recruit armed with a M16/optical sight or SAR 21 at a range of above 50m.
I would bet on the private. And bare in mind, we are taking a "elite" pistol shooter against a very average rifle shooter.
It doesn't take long to train a adequate rifle shooter. compared to a pistol which would take a long time. -
dun compare pistols to rifle, u are not making a good and equal comparison cos weight difference is a few times, rounds used is different, accuracy of a pistol at long range cannot be compared with a rifle.Originally posted by spencer99:If we have the Olympic pistol event medallist armed with a pistol go up against an average "just BMT POP" recruit armed with a M16/optical sight or SAR 21 at a range of above 50m.
I would bet on the private. And bare in mind, we are taking a "elite" pistol shooter against a very average rifle shooter.
It doesn't take long to train a adequate rifle shooter. compared to a pistol which would take a long time. -
Just BMT POP recruit? Talking about me ah?
At 50 meters? Dunno leh... I think I'll just anyhow spray and advance up bound by bound until SFG range... what you think? -
I believe the reason why people raised this issue was because somebody said that the weapon does not matter at all, just the skill of the shooter. And that everytime his money would be on the better shooter.Originally posted by chunyong:dun compare pistols to rifle, u are not making a good and equal comparison cos weight difference is a few times, rounds used is different, accuracy of a pistol at long range cannot be compared with a rifle. -
SgTrex, you are a pretty observant and extinct species.
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if the pistol or rifle cannot perform well on its own, how well u can shoot also useless. just like u got a car dat can't perform well, how good u drive also useless....Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:I believe the reason why people raised this issue was because somebody said that the weapon does not matter at all, just the skill of the shooter. And that everytime his money would be on the better shooter. -
HI Crosshairs!
What is an M16 with iron sight?
With regards to what you can do at 300m and 200m, can you do it for run down as well? No pun intended. I am just wondering were you trained to do that as well. -
Marines have a simple rule in a fire fight. An enemy with a pistol, I'll train a company of fire power on him. " MORE POWER!"
But back to the subject in question, a pistol over a SMG." STOP watching Die Hard".
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john mcclane was in luckOriginally posted by John Ching:Marines have a simple rule in a fire fight. An enemy with a pistol, I'll train a company of fire power on him. " MORE POWER!"
But back to the subject in question, a pistol over a SMG." STOP watching Die Hard". 
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OK,I may neglect the fact that accuracy is not important when you have an automatic weapon that goes at 600 rounds per minute.In other words,shouldn't all police officers everywhere be armed with a electically powered 7.62mm Minigun?Or at least a Fn MAG GPMG?This would ensure a healthy volume of automatic fire,long range of at least 1,100m,high penetrating power?
to be honest,this is a bad discussion as the parameters weren't set.If you were to compare in justified circumstances,then the conclusions would be entirely different.Thus we can infer from the earlier posts that some come online to look for trobule,and to suppress the freedom of speech of others.And sorry to say,I do quite enjoy learning from here.Thanks,no personal attacks intended,and sorry for the typo Chunyong... -
The circumstances are:Originally posted by SpecOps87:to be honest,this is a bad discussion as the parameters weren't set.If you were to compare in justified circumstances,then the conclusions would be entirely different.Thus we can infer from the earlier posts that some come online to look for trobule,and to suppress the freedom of speech of others.And sorry to say,I do quite enjoy learning from here.Thanks,no personal attacks intended,and sorry for the typo Chunyong...
Night
Urban setting
Scoped rifles vs pistols
Range: 50 meters. (rough estimate)
Can you PLEASE tell me why the NYPD, over a period of several years, despite several years of actual pistol engagements with real criminals, have not recorded any hits beyond 8 meters?
So somehow, your IPSC training allows you to hit riflemen, concealed behind cover, and at about 3 or 4 times the nominal pistol engagement range?
Your not going to have an IPSC race gun, with sight, compensator, and what-have-you.
Your going to have a stock Glock. And you can accurately identify, engage, and hit the enemy while their firing at you at full-auto?
Hmm. You must be Neo. -
Are you referring to S.W.A.T or 45 minutes: The north hollywood story?Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Seen the video where these two AK-totting armoured clowns robbed a bank? They managed to hold off hordes of pistol armed police until the feds had to borrow rifles from a gun store to finish the job. Give me a 5.56 anytime to a pistol.
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Originally posted by SpecOps87:
No, police officers everywhere should have a shotgun or a shoulder weapon in the patrol car.
[b]OK,I may neglect the fact that accuracy is not important when you have an automatic weapon that goes at 600 rounds per minute.In other words,shouldn't all police officers everywhere be armed with a electically powered 7.62mm Minigun?Or at least a Fn MAG GPMG?This would ensure a healthy volume of automatic fire,long range of at least 1,100m,high penetrating power?
[b]
I refer you to an incident donkey years ago where an MP5 was stolen from the M'sian police. Where was it stolen from? A patrol car. I wonder why it was there. Maybe they were just taking it to another station.
I remind you that the SPF VIP protection team has a vehicle full of long weapons. Why do they have such a vehicle? Maybe just because they look cool.
The USSS (US Secret Service) also maintain an SUV full of people with long weapons. Why? Im sure it's just because they look cool and darn nice for the press to take pictures.
The point being that, shoulder weapons are inherently better to engage the enemy with.
Why?
I'll leave it up to you to think.[/img] -
Quoting from my HK MP5 manual:Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:At 500 meters, can a 5.56 round still have sufficent energy to seriously wound or kill? And can a hit be achieved using non-match ammo? That's some pretty serious shooting there, I can't really get a good headshot beyond 100 myself.
Safety Rule #5:
Be sure of your target and of what's behind it before firing!
At 25 meters, even a 9mm projectile can easily penetrate wood or plasterboard walls or a car door and travel more than 1 mile!
1 mile = 1.6 kilometers. -
1) shooting people and shooting target is very different.Originally posted by Johnston:The circumstances are:
Night
Urban setting
Scoped rifles vs pistols
Range: 50 meters. (rough estimate)
Can you PLEASE tell me why the NYPD, over a period of several years, despite several years of actual pistol engagements with real criminals, have not recorded any hits beyond 8 meters?
So somehow, your IPSC training allows you to hit riflemen, concealed behind cover, and at about 3 or 4 times the nominal pistol engagement range?
Your not going to have an IPSC race gun, with sight, compensator, and what-have-you.
Your going to have a stock Glock. And you can accurately identify, engage, and hit the enemy while their firing at you at full-auto?
Hmm. You must be Neo.
2) people move unpredictably. target are pre-programmed, u go to the range a few times can know the sequence
3) you can't really aim and shoot like in the range when the criminal is advancing fast on u with a crowbar or chopper
4) gan jiong = gabra
to make things easier, they use laser aiming stuff, dat also serve as a deterence. -
OKok,pardon my ignorance.I apologise to all....Give me a long arm any day.BUt okay,I mean lets be realistic alright....Patrol Men ain't often armed with anything other then their T-baton and revolver/semi-automatic pistol.So they have no choice but to respond with whatever they can lay their hands on.I'm real sorry for my ignorance....So hope you guys would forgive me.
BTW,does anyone know if a standard 5.56mm ball ammunition and the 7.62mm ammunition can penetrate Level IIIA body armour fitted with trauma plates and ceramic plates?Thanks. -
There are 2 configurations, 1 with normal iron sights (commonly known as tritium sight, just that ours is without the greem tritium embedded) and the other is with a scope. The advantage of the scope being that focus is not a problem. But we were never given that luxury.Originally posted by geruicheng:HI Crosshairs!
What is an M16 with iron sight?
With regards to what you can do at 300m and 200m, can you do it for run down as well? No pun intended. I am just wondering were you trained to do that as well.
As for run down........we have been trained to do normal run downs as per ATP, 200m run downs followed by 400m shoots, and for Australian competitions 1km rundown followed by 400yard shoots. All involving fig 11 or equivalent. -
I watched this movie "The negotiator" once and was told by someone in our SF that's it so tactically correct that it's not good to be made for a movie. Because that's exactly the way to counter most SF assults and terrorist wannabes can learn from it.Originally posted by bismarck:guys guys...
it's just a movie..
movies are meant to be taken with a pinch of salt -
Are you familiar with the 30cm x 30cm x 1cm falling plates made of iron? I have never seen a 5.56 penetrate one. Sometimes it just removes the white paint from it. But a 7.62 will punch right through leaving behind a hole of about 1cm diameter.Originally posted by SpecOps87:OKok,pardon my ignorance.I apologise to all....Give me a long arm any day.BUt okay,I mean lets be realistic alright....Patrol Men ain't often armed with anything other then their T-baton and revolver/semi-automatic pistol.So they have no choice but to respond with whatever they can lay their hands on.I'm real sorry for my ignorance....So hope you guys would forgive me.
BTW,does anyone know if a standard 5.56mm ball ammunition and the 7.62mm ammunition can penetrate Level IIIA body armour fitted with trauma plates and ceramic plates?Thanks. -
I know that.But its two different materials.Iron and (Kevlar + Trauma/Ceramic plates).It seems that only the .50cal or sniper rounds can penetrate those.
**Can someone please list the various classes of Body armour. -
depends the angle the bullet hits too, not forgetting dat more than 1 bullet might hit the same section like 2 bullets hitting the chest region.Originally posted by SpecOps87:I know that.But its two different materials.Iron and (Kevlar + Trauma/Ceramic plates).It seems that only the .50cal or sniper rounds can penetrate those.
**Can someone please list the various classes of Body armour. -
Originally posted by SpecOps87:
Police job is not a soldier job. They have to appear approachable, and not overarm till they intimate the people they are to protect. That is why when police chose weapon, they also have to consider how the weapon look this is not to create panic to the public. Just imagine, police officer bring machine gun just go after a snatch thief, the public will thought they are after Osama instead and all stampade.
[b]OK,I may neglect the fact that accuracy is not important when you have an automatic weapon that goes at 600 rounds per minute.In other words,shouldn't all police officers everywhere be armed with a electically powered 7.62mm Minigun?Or at least a Fn MAG GPMG?This would ensure a healthy volume of automatic fire,long range of at least 1,100m,high penetrating power?
b]
But did you notice a few case of handgun incident in Singapore, once it is confirm that the suspect may be armed with pistol or revovler, the police will mobilise the heavier arm unit which carry Sub-machine guns and rifles.
Actually accuracy is more important in a automatic weapon like machine guns. It is very different from the movie. In fact with a machine gun, you will find you have limit ammo and a faster firing rate. In real life, it is aimed control burst of 3-5 rounds each shoot is the best way for machine guns -
As requested the various classes of body armour explained.Originally posted by SpecOps87:I know that.But its two different materials.Iron and (Kevlar + Trauma/Ceramic plates).It seems that only the .50cal or sniper rounds can penetrate those.
**Can someone please list the various classes of Body armour.
The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) standards usually used are:-
Level I (22 LR; 380 ACP; 38 Special)
Protects against .22 LR Lead Round Nose of 2.6 gm (40 gr) at 320 m/s (1050 fps); 380 ACP Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) of 6.2 gm (95 gr) at 312 m/s (1025 fps) and 38 Special round nose lead bullets of 10.2 gm (158 gr) at 259 m/s (850 fps). Also provides protection against most handgun rounds in calibers 25 and 32.
Level II-A (9 mm; 40 S&W; Lower Velocity 357 Magnum)
Protects against 9 mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) of 8.0 gm (124 gr) at 332 m/s (1090fps); .40 S&W caliber Full Metal Jacketed (FMJ) bullets of 11.7 gm (180 gr) at 312 m/s (1025fps) and .357 Magnum jacketed soft point bullets of 10.2 gm (158 gr) impacting at a velocity of 381 m/s (1250 fps). Also provides protection against threats such as 45 Auto, 38 Special +P and some other factory loads in 357 Magnum or 9 mm.
Level II (9 mm; 357 Magnum)
Protects against 9 mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets of 8.0 gm (124 gr) at 358 m/s (1175fps) and 357 Magnum Jacketed Soft Point (JSP) bullets of 10.2 gm (158 gr) at 427 m/s (1400fps). Provides protection against most other factory loads in caliber 357 Magnum and 9 mm.
Level III-A (High Velocity 9 mm; Submachine Gun 9 mm; 44 Magnum)
Protects against 9 mm Full Metal Jacketed Round Nose (FMJ RN) bullets of 8.0 gm (124 gr) at 427 m/s (1400fps) and 44 Magnum Semi Jacketed Hollow Point (SJHP) or semi-wadcutter bullets of 15.6 gm (240 gr) at a 427 m/s (1400fps). Provides protection against most handgun threats.
Level III ( High-Powered Rifle)
Protects against up to 6 hits of 7.62x51 mm full metal jacketed bullets (U.S. M80 Ball) of 9.7 gm (150 gr) at 838 m/s (2750 fps). Also provides protection against threats such as 223 Remington (5.56x45mm FMJ), 30 Carbine FMJ, and 12 gauge rifled slug.
Level IV (Armour-Piercing Rifle)
Protects against one hit from .30-06 Armour-piercing (U.S. Military M2 AP) of 10.8 gm (166 gr) at 868 m/s (2850 fps). -
Well SpecOps87, if face with 5.56 or 7.62 with a levelIIIa armour, best thing to do is not to get shot ! It is not enough, it can stop up to sub machines rounds only. You need the levelIII at least for 5.56 or 7.62Originally posted by SpecOps87:BTW,does anyone know if a standard 5.56mm ball ammunition and the 7.62mm ammunition can penetrate Level IIIA body armour fitted with trauma plates and ceramic plates?Thanks. -
Erm guys,what about the use of ballistic shields against 5.56mm or 7.62mm fire?Watch this Andy Lau movie fulltime killer,the Jap killer annihilated an entire squad of Interpol cops and others with a shotgun.Any ideas?Which has more penetrative power?Slugs or buckshot?And also has anyone seen a M4 carbine fitted with a shotgun?Post the pic here please.Thanks!!!