China's Aircraft Carriers
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No navalized Spitfires are correct. However it was the brand new Illustrious that was slated for the Force Z, and it ran aground in Jamaica, not as a result of enemy action. The records seem to suggest that no aircraft were assigned to the carrier at the time of this incident (records of squadrons embarked on the Illustrious begin from 1942).Originally posted by spencer99:Navalized version of Spitfires (Seafires) were not available in late '41 or early '42.
No carrier was actually sent. But a carrier was actually earmarked. However, the Stukas heavily damaged the carrier in the Mediteran (spelling), I think it was the HMS Illustrious/Formidable.
As such no carrier was available. Even if a carrier was available, I don't it could do much against the swarm of crack Japanese pilots. Probably will be sunk together with the Repulse and the POW.
Illustrious could operate 45 aircraft, surely not all of those would have been fighters, and against the 100 or so Japanese bombers without any escort, who knows what would have been the outcome?
It might not have been a slaughterhouse - the embarked aircraft would at least have tempered the unescorted Japanese bombers' attacks enough for one or two of the battlewagons to have remained afloat to take on the invasion fleet. -
Think during 1942, we should have adopted more guerilla tactics like those militants..Originally posted by cleong:No navalized Spitfires are correct. However it was the brand new Illustrious that was slated for the Force Z, and it ran aground in Jamaica, not as a result of enemy action. The records seem to suggest that no aircraft were assigned to the carrier at the time of this incident (records of squadrons embarked on the Illustrious begin from 1942).
Illustrious could operate 45 aircraft, surely not all of those would have been fighters, and against the 100 or so Japanese bombers without any escort, who knows what would have been the outcome?
It might not have been a slaughterhouse - the embarked aircraft would at least have tempered the unescorted Japanese bombers' attacks enough for one or two of the battlewagons to have remained afloat to take on the invasion fleet. -
The "crap" is that the PLAN has by far more ships than the entire Southeast Asia.Originally posted by relevation:What is these crap about the Chinese Navy. They are 100 years away from threatening anyone.
The China Chinese must be crazy to even think of invading Taiwan. It will effective send them back to the old dynastic era of backwardness and poverty.
Come on, the Chins are better than this. Anyway We are Singaporean and no longer Chinese - who cares about what the Chins are doing.
This may sound as if I am unaware politics or history- I bet you I probably know so much that I think what happened to China in the 19th Century is a result of themselves and our own ancestor's antique thinking.
For anything- the belief in Confucianism is the greatest failure of all!!!
Look at the free ideas and how non-mind restraining the west is. That's why they are so progressive.
In order to be advance, we need creativity and willing to change our mindsets.
If China insist to have war with Taiwan or even exploit its powers in the world- it has got to have a strong economy to begin with. After that they need a strong and legitimate political system that people feels belonged.
Maybe something for the PAP in Singapore to think about too before spending so much on the military!!!
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/plan/
Have you really read your history - you must be aware that Singapore is a country so small it cannot afford to take on a closed-door policy; even a country as large as China and Japan cannot close its doors forever. Chinese is not only a considerable military power, it is also perhaps more so, an economic power, otherwise the mighty US would not need to engage China in trade talks, they might as well just march in and do what they like. Why don't more countries thumb their noses at China and officially recognize Taiwan, and allow Taiwan to have consulates in their countries? Why doesn't the United Nations allow Taiwan in yet?
I've never seen someone denounce their own heritage in so few sentences. I guess there is a first time for everything. -
They did, but only got organized some time after the British surrendered. The Malayan Communist Party was aided by the British government with clandestine airdrops and submarine extractions for the duration of the conflict (once the situation stabilized).Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:Think during 1942, we should have adopted more guerilla tactics like those militants.. -
Originally posted by tvdog:
The short answer?
[b]
But what about the British Royal Navy? Besides the embarrassing loss of 2 massive battleships the HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales, were there any other famous naval engagements between the Brits and Japs worthy of note?
[b]
No.
The long answer?
Maybe.
But really, the sinking of the Scarnhorst was the last well known British engagement of WWII. -
hmm...wonder how force z will fair at battle of java sea, unless japans divert more ships to S.E.A , they will suffer at great defeat or think twice before attacking with the battleship and battlecaruiser and not to mention carrier around.
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Maybe you are no longer Chinese, but I am Singaporean and am very proud to be of the Chinese race. We are a great race and culture.Originally posted by relevation:What is these crap about the Chinese Navy. They are 100 years away from threatening anyone.
The China Chinese must be crazy to even think of invading Taiwan. It will effective send them back to the old dynastic era of backwardness and poverty.
Come on, the Chins are better than this. Anyway We are Singaporean and no longer Chinese - who cares about what the Chins are doing.
Look at the free ideas and how non-mind restraining the west is. That's why they are so progressive.
I feel sorry for you that you think western culture is so "progressive". Well, eat more kantan, dye your hair blonde and bleach your skin and you might just succeed in "progressing" yourself into a white man. -
This guy can't have any chinese heritage if he calls chinese "chins", like calling a Negro "Nigger". He also doesn't know any history. Many bananas acknowledge their situation, many are trying to find their roots and identities, but they don't look down on their own or other heritage. This one is rotton bananas, if he has yellow skin. His parents must be so progressive that they moved on ahead of him, that is why he he needs to progress.Originally posted by cleong:The "crap" is that the PLAN has by far more ships than the entire Southeast Asia.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/plan/
Have you really read your history - you must be aware that Singapore is a country so small it cannot afford to take on a closed-door policy; even a country as large as China and Japan cannot close its doors forever. Chinese is not only a considerable military power, it is also perhaps more so, an economic power, otherwise the mighty US would not need to engage China in trade talks, they might as well just march in and do what they like. Why don't more countries thumb their noses at China and officially recognize Taiwan, and allow Taiwan to have consulates in their countries? Why doesn't the United Nations allow Taiwan in yet?
I've never seen someone denounce their own heritage in so few sentences. I guess there is a first time for everything. -
Are you aware of the massed IJN carrier group they had in operation?Originally posted by ray243:hmm...wonder how force z will fair at battle of java sea, unless japans divert more ships to S.E.A , they will suffer at great defeat or think twice before attacking with the battleship and battlecaruiser and not to mention carrier around.
Not to forget their two big BBs, namely Yamato and Musashi.
So Prince of Wales + Repulse wouldn't have made too much of a difference. -
The Yamato and Musashi are not operational at the start of WW2. There are also no major IJN a/c carriers during that phase of the campaign in SEA. The air cover of the operation is solely land-based.
If a RN carrier is part of Force Z, it would probably provide some scouting capability for the two surface ships, but I doubt that that the obsolete swordfish Torpedo bombers will have any hope against the invasion fleet.
I don't see how a handful of Fulmar fighters could protect the BB and BC. And the carrier herself would make a fine target.
Even if they drive off the attacking bombers if we look at the performance fo allied ships at the battle of java sea, don't think the Repulse or POW will actually drive off or destroy the invasion fleet.
So the fall of Spore is inevitable. -
Oops.Originally posted by spencer99:The Yamato and Musashi are not operational at the start of WW2. There are also no major IJN a/c carriers during that phase of the campaign in SEA. The air cover of the operation is solely land-based.
If a RN carrier is part of Force Z, it would probably provide some scouting capability for the two surface ships, but I doubt that that the obsolete swordfish Torpedo bombers will have any hope against the invasion fleet.
So the fall of Spore is inevitable.
Pearl Harbor = Dec 7 1941
Force Z's dispatchement = 25 Oct 1941
Force Z's sinking = 10 dec 1941
Final fitting out - Musashi = 28 sep 1942
It's implausible that the Pearl Harbor strike force could have went to singapore, just to whack force Z.
Really, an extra two ships wouldnt have made too much difference at the Battle of Java sea. -
maybe not, due to the fact that at java sea, the largest ship japenese sent out was only heavy cruiser and no battleship nor carriers. A more powerful force of battleship and battlecruiser could eaily win against the IJN and also given the fact the the japan's navy is too preoccupied, maybe not much ships could be sent to java sea.
however, i'm not too sure whether battle of java sea the japanese ships had air cover or not...but likely with prince of wales and repulse, the allies may win and java may not fall to the japs, then british may be able to retake singapore sooner before 1945.