Doctor lies to activate Helo evac
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Saw in today papers (Oct 8 ) on Cdo sPOW abuse trial.
Doc (under cross examination) when trying to activate Helo evac told medic on other end that casualty 'was in coma'.. was told - "no go".
Doc then had to 'lie' : case is "heat exhausion" in order for Air Force to activate helo evac. Why is this so? -
Air Force stupid lah. They shd activate first question later. Time is essential in saving lives.
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I read the ST online today, agree with what the medical officer did. It was wrong, but it had to be done, otherwise there won't be a response. Red tape in the SAF just stops nearly everything from moving at times. I hope they learnt a valuable lesson from this.
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This is probably some SOP somewhere that did not "cover" everything.....
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SOP I understand. Wonder if this will be enshrined under "lessons learnt".
In Brunei more than 3 wasp stings gets you evac, any one on face or neck also. Less than 3 you walk out to safety rover. -
My question regarding this, is how do you know the person isn't allergic to bee stings? Did you know that someone who's allergic to bee stings can die bloody quickly after getting even ONE sting? Some more this is a wasp not bee. So does the SAF know which soldiers are allergic to bee sting? I doubt it.Originally posted by baer:SOP I understand. Wonder if this will be enshrined under "lessons learnt".
In Brunei more than 3 wasp stings gets you evac, any one on face or neck also. Less than 3 you walk out to safety rover.
So how? Wait till you have the person die then come & apologise to the parents? Farked up man!!
This reminds me of an incident several years back. My friend (suffers from asthma) was doing his BMT. The whole platoon was running when he felt an asthma attack coming on. So he slowed down a bit. Needless to say he was farked for slowing down. He explained to his PC that he had trouble breathing but the PC didn't care & asked him to continue. Soon after that, he collapsed to the ground gasping for air. Only then did the PC's balls drop & asked that he be evacuated to medical centre.
Yes, there are ppl who chao keng, but the problem is non medically trained ppl can't tell them apart from genuine cases. So what I will suggest (which the SAF will obviously NOT bother to even consider) is that if the soldier claims he's having some problem, send him to medical centre straight away.
Don't waste time by trying to figure out if he's keng or not. Let the MO decide. If MO feels he's a kengster, you can charge him later. But don't waste time 'cos it could be a genuine case.
And to that, I should mention my CSM during my BMT recourse. Forgot his name liao but anyway. During field camp I suddenly felt faint. My buddy noticed & helped me to the medic. Our CSM was there & instead of behaving like MOST commanders in the SAF & farking me for chao keng, he gave me the benefit of the doubt & told me to rest.
He asked the medic to check if I had heat stroke & even after the medic gave me the all clear, our CSM still told me to rest for a while & make sure I'm totally fine before joining the rest. We need more of this kind of ppl around. Screw those b*stards who think they are as smart as the MO & think they know how to detect chao kengs from genuine cases. -
+1Originally posted by esesce:My question regarding this, is how do you know the person isn't allergic to bee stings? Did you know that someone who's allergic to bee stings can die bloody quickly after getting even ONE sting? Some more this is a wasp not bee. So does the SAF know which soldiers are allergic to bee sting? I doubt it.
So how? Wait till you have the person die then come & apologise to the parents? Farked up man!!
This reminds me of an incident several years back. My friend (suffers from asthma) was doing his BMT. The whole platoon was running when he felt an asthma attack coming on. So he slowed down a bit. Needless to say he was farked for slowing down. He explained to his PC that he had trouble breathing but the PC didn't care & asked him to continue. Soon after that, he collapsed to the ground gasping for air. Only then did the PC's balls drop & asked that he be evacuated to medical centre.
Yes, there are ppl who chao keng, but the problem is non medically trained ppl can't tell them apart from genuine cases. So what I will suggest (which the SAF will obviously NOT bother to even consider) is that if the soldier claims he's having some problem, send him to medical centre straight away.
Don't waste time by trying to figure out if he's keng or not. Let the MO decide. If MO feels he's a kengster, you can charge him later. But don't waste time 'cos it could be a genuine case.
And to that, I should mention my CSM during my BMT recourse. Forgot his name liao but anyway. During field camp I suddenly felt faint. My buddy noticed & helped me to the medic. Our CSM was there & instead of behaving like MOST commanders in the SAF & farking me for chao keng, he gave me the benefit of the doubt & told me to rest.
He asked the medic to check if I had heat stroke & even after the medic gave me the all clear, our CSM still told me to rest for a while & make sure I'm totally fine before joining the rest. We need more of this kind of ppl around. Screw those b*stards who think they are as smart as the MO & think they know how to detect chao kengs from genuine cases.
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I agree with the discussion.
I feel that what SAF should provide are guidelines to the MO and Commanders of a certain rank/appointment as to when heli- evacutation can be activated. I believe why SAF had some rules ( such as the 3 stings) is to prevent misuse. Since a certain rank has been "given" to these commanders, their judgement on the ground should be trusted. We all agree that SOP don't and can't cover every single situations that requires a heli-evact? -
coma cases can't get helis? drowning cases dun get priority? wow.
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Army is like that one. They dun have brains, they let the rule book do the thinking for them one. Book say what, they follow what. Rule book ask them eat shit with a smile, they eat shit with many many smiles. Brainless fucks, most of them. (Thankfully not all)
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erm in coma but SAF dun wanna helo evac?
then heat stroke they want to evac??
isn't being in a coma worse than having a heat stroke?
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They're thinking must be like:Originally posted by beavan:erm in coma but SAF dun wanna helo evac?
then heat stroke they want to evac??
isn't being in a coma worse than having a heat stroke?
Heatstroke, still alive, can save.
Comatose, most probably dead or dying, why bother? -
or comatose = a more potential death case so must keep him in to effect a better cover up ?
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Air force will activate once other people give green light, its not airforce's decision.Originally posted by paperchicken:Air Force stupid lah. They shd activate first question later. Time is essential in saving lives.
you want to activate, they'll activate. and its is very sian when i hear the siren to activate. why? because they start timing.
if someone dies and our timing is off, we will get hell. so do u think is it airforce who don't want to activate? -
Originally posted by esesce:
Most people are aware of some of their allergies, but they would not know those that they had not been exposed. So how? Does it mean that when a soldier has a small red swelling, then they must be evacuated? What if it is a mosquito bite, or something innocuous? Then SAF would not be viable because training and operations would be impossible.
My question regarding this, is how do you know the person isn't allergic to bee stings? Did you know that someone who's allergic to bee stings can die bloody quickly after getting even ONE sting? Some more this is a wasp not bee. So does the SAF know which soldiers are allergic to bee sting? I doubt it.
So how? Wait till you have the person die then come & apologise to the parents? Farked up man!!
Keep a database of each soldier and his allergies? Medical test can be conducted to determine some allergies, but what about those that cannot be detected? And what about the cost?Originally posted by esesce:
Unfortunately, they are many shirkers in the army and an officer or NCO would be sceptical. I would not be confident to say if the officer is at fault without further information. For example, was your friend's condition made known to the officer at the start of the training course with proper medical certification?
This reminds me of an incident several years back. My friend (suffers from asthma) was doing his BMT. The whole platoon was running when he felt an asthma attack coming on. So he slowed down a bit. Needless to say he was farked for slowing down. He explained to his PC that he had trouble breathing but the PC didn't care & asked him to continue. Soon after that, he collapsed to the ground gasping for air. Only then did the PC's balls drop & asked that he be evacuated to medical centre.Originally posted by esesce:
Unfortunately, MOs are general practitioners, and very green ones at that (without a lot of practical experience). Even they make mistakes. Imagine the logistics problems that arises when every complaint are to be evacuated/sent to medical centre - how many safety vehicles would be necessary to follow a platoon exercise? What if a genuine emergency occurs when the safety vehicle is not available because of a minor case?
Yes, there are ppl who chao keng, but the problem is non medically trained ppl can't tell them apart from genuine cases. So what I will suggest (which the SAF will obviously NOT bother to even consider) is that if the soldier claims he's having some problem, send him to medical centre straight away.
Don't waste time by trying to figure out if he's keng or not. Let the MO decide. If MO feels he's a kengster, you can charge him later. But don't waste time 'cos it could be a genuine case.Originally posted by esesce:
Good for the CSM. However, don't be so hasty to put down "those b*stards" - most of them are doing what they think best under constraints of the training situation. Admittedly, there are genuine b*stards - but not only in SAF; everywhere.
And to that, I should mention my CSM during my BMT recourse. Forgot his name liao but anyway. During field camp I suddenly felt faint. My buddy noticed & helped me to the medic. Our CSM was there & instead of behaving like MOST commanders in the SAF & farking me for chao keng, he gave me the benefit of the doubt & told me to rest.
He asked the medic to check if I had heat stroke & even after the medic gave me the all clear, our CSM still told me to rest for a while & make sure I'm totally fine before joining the rest. We need more of this kind of ppl around. Screw those b*stards who think they are as smart as the MO & think they know how to detect chao kengs from genuine cases.
I am not disagreeing that things could have been or could be better, but then what cannot?
Instead of just making criticisms at the heat of the moment, I firmly think that one should think things through, try to see from different perspectives (i.e. play the devil's advocate as well), and then solutions may then come to mind. Ultimately, the most important thing is to be constructive.
It IS stupid that coma case does not warrant a medivac
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Nevermind, after this a coma warrants a medivac.
it takes a person to die or something bad to happen before SAF changes ANYTHING. -
yah. kopi, u faster become CDF leh. then can make changes.Originally posted by kopiosatu:Nevermind, after this a coma warrants a medivac.
it takes a person to die or something bad to happen before SAF changes ANYTHING.
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its still there, not abt the CSM though but the fresh FI (3SG)Originally posted by esesce:Yes, there are ppl who chao keng, but the problem is non medically trained ppl can't tell them apart from genuine cases. So what I will suggest (which the SAF will obviously NOT bother to even consider) is that if the soldier claims he's having some problem, send him to medical centre straight away.
Don't waste time by trying to figure out if he's keng or not. Let the MO decide. If MO feels he's a kengster, you can charge him later. But don't waste time 'cos it could be a genuine case.
And to that, I should mention my CSM during my BMT recourse. Forgot his name liao but anyway. During field camp I suddenly felt faint. My buddy noticed & helped me to the medic. Our CSM was there & instead of behaving like MOST commanders in the SAF & farking me for chao keng, he gave me the benefit of the doubt & told me to rest.
had fever the nite b4, morning was weak as hell, one of the instructor notice n ask me go rpt sick, mo gave me 3 days attn B, came back another instructor remoured to be racist, saw my status slip n threw it on the floor , he scolded me in malay "f*ck ur mother", ordered me 5mins full battle order -
no no, i want same job, CDF payOriginally posted by HENG@:yah. kopi, u faster become CDF leh. then can make changes. 
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wah steady lah!Originally posted by kopiosatu:no no, i want same job, CDF pay -
1. Three wasp stings are hardly what I consider "a small red swelling".
2. Anyone who was asthmatic had a huge "A" stamped on their blue booklet. But obviously the officer can't remember who has asthma. But having said that, why risk a genuine case? If the person claims he's having asthma attack, send him to medical centre. If MO says he's kenging, then charge him. But don't assume he's kenging. You are not the MO.
3. Obviously you've not encountered any such instructors. I've seen ppl collapse during PT (back in the days when log PT was still the norm) and the instructors just squat there & fark the ppl. Would you call that "doing what they think best under constraints"??
4. What different perspective is there? Fact is the person was in a coma. And instead of wasting time, they should've sent the chopper immediately. Simple as that. -
1. I did not say that 3 wasp stings are "a small red swelling". I am saying that there are no way where every contigency can be explictly catered for. Repeating the gist of my previous post, sometimes even we don;t know what bit us that caused the swelling - much less the person that was reported to.Originally posted by esesce:1. Three wasp stings are hardly what I consider "a small red swelling".
2. Anyone who was asthmatic had a huge "A" stamped on their blue booklet. But obviously the officer can't remember who has asthma. But having said that, why risk a genuine case? If the person claims he's having asthma attack, send him to medical centre. If MO says he's kenging, then charge him. But don't assume he's kenging. You are not the MO.
3. Obviously you've not encountered any such instructors. I've seen ppl collapse during PT (back in the days when log PT was still the norm) and the instructors just squat there & fark the ppl. Would you call that "doing what they think best under constraints"??
4. What different perspective is there? Fact is the person was in a coma. And instead of wasting time, they should've sent the chopper immediately. Simple as that.
2. I guess that you are probably right in that the officer can't remember the specific problems with each of the soldier under his charge.
3. What is "collapse"? Sometimes after exercise, I get so tired that I am flat on my back. Is that collapse? My point is that trainees need to be pushed to some extent - and I have no definition for "extent". When a person thinks that he has reached his limit, it may not be his true limit. It all comes back to a judgement call - and a judgement call can be right or wrong depending on many factors. A person who can run 2.4 in 8 minutes in one day may die of heart failure trying to do 10 min another day. Therefore, those responsible can only do their best. I agree that there are some who will act like ass-holes, but my believe is that most are just trying to do what they thing is right.
4. I have already stated my opinion on medevac and coma. About "different perspectives", I am not only referring to this specific instance - it applies to the rest of your previous post. -
Originally posted by dragonstar:
Correct, you can't possible predict every contingency but 3 wasp stings sounds a little too much. If the person is allergic to bee stings, a single wasp sting is already enough to kill him.
1. I did not say that 3 wasp stings are "a small red swelling". I am saying that there are no way where every contigency can be explictly catered for. Repeating the gist of my previous post, sometimes even we don;t know what bit us that caused the swelling - much less the person that was reported to.
2. I guess that you are probably right in that the officer can't remember the specific problems with each of the soldier under his charge.
3. What is "collapse"? Sometimes after exercise, I get so tired that I am flat on my back. Is that collapse? My point is that trainees need to be pushed to some extent - and I have no definition for "extent". When a person [b]thinks that he has reached his limit, it may not be his true limit. It all comes back to a judgement call - and a judgement call can be right or wrong depending on many factors. A person who can run 2.4 in 8 minutes in one day may die of heart failure trying to do 10 min another day. Therefore, those responsible can only do their best. I agree that there are some who will act like ass-holes, but my believe is that most are just trying to do what they thing is right.
4. I have already stated my opinion on medevac and coma. About "different perspectives", I am not only referring to this specific instance - it applies to the rest of your previous post.[/b]
After exercise you are flat on your back. But did you sit yourself down & then lie on your back? Or did you just collapse as though you fainted? During my first night of BMT (mind you, we were just enlisted that afternoon), we were asked to run around the parade square non stop. In the middle of the run, we would be stopped every now & then to do push ups, sit ups, star jumps, etc and then continue running.
Most of us were not very fit (being from the PTP batch) & were certainly not used to this suddenly VERY vigorous exercise. I saw with my own eyes several recruits collapse like flies. Some cynics might say they purposely fell so they could "rest" for a while.
Bullocks!! First of all, they didn't get to rest. If anyone fell, the instructors would squat next to them, fark the recruit & his parents & then drag the recruit up & force him to continue. Secondly, I don't think they would purposely fall face first. I saw some recruits collapse & when they hit the road, it was SMACK face first. That has GOT to hurt & like I said, I doubt anyone is dumb enough to do that on purpose.
When my buddy collapsed, he scrapped both elbows so badly that blood was flowing down his arms. Not only was medical attention not given, he was farked, told not to be a pussy & forced to continue running. If anyone expects me to believe that my buddy did that on purpose to "rest", I'll show him my middle finger.
Fitness have to be built up gradually. You run 2km first, then 5km, then 10 km & eventually 20km. If you are unfit, you do NOT run 20km on your first day. That is asking for trouble. Similarly, what happened to our batch was unacceptable. You do NOT subject recruits to that kind of treatment. Not on their very first day of BMT. If it was on the last week of BMT (pressumably most recruits are quite fit by then), it might have been more acceptable. -
I agree that fitness had to be built up gradually. I was one of the most unfit soldier in the platoon in my BMT, SAFINCOS and ANCO courses and I had a hell of a time. At one stage in my ANCO course, the whole detachment had not been able to achieve delpoyment timing, and since I was the biggest sized guy in the detachment, I was picked for the deployment task over and over again so that timing can be achieved. (I KNOW that the trainer picked me not because I was targetted, but because he needed the timing to be met so that we can break off the training.) After a few rounds I had to tell him that I can no longer continue because I was too shagged. Therefore I know what it was to be like being unfit. However, I can also say that without being pushed during all the various courses, I would not even achieve the fitness level required to pass IPPT and SOC.Originally posted by esesce:After exercise you are flat on your back. But did you sit yourself down & then lie on your back? Or did you just collapse as though you fainted? During my first night of BMT (mind you, we were just enlisted that afternoon), we were asked to run around the parade square non stop. In the middle of the run, we would be stopped every now & then to do push ups, sit ups, star jumps, etc and then continue running.
Most of us were not very fit (being from the PTP batch) & were certainly not used to this suddenly VERY vigorous exercise. I saw with my own eyes several recruits collapse like flies. Some cynics might say they purposely fell so they could "rest" for a while.
Bullocks!! First of all, they didn't get to rest. If anyone fell, the instructors would squat next to them, fark the recruit & his parents & then drag the recruit up & force him to continue. Secondly, I don't think they would purposely fall face first. I saw some recruits collapse & when they hit the road, it was SMACK face first. That has GOT to hurt & like I said, I doubt anyone is dumb enough to do that on purpose.
When my buddy collapsed, he scrapped both elbows so badly that blood was flowing down his arms. Not only was medical attention not given, he was farked, told not to be a p[b]ussy & forced to continue running. If anyone expects me to believe that my buddy did that on purpose to "rest", I'll show him my middle finger.
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You apparently confirm the remarks I made in my pevious post
- trainees needed to be pushed to achieve their best. After they are "farked" (using your term), didn't the trainees get up and continue? From what I understand in your message, they did (had to/forced to) - that means they did not actually collapse. (Dictionary definition: an abrupt failure to function)
[quote]Originally posted by esesce:
Fitness have to be built up gradually. You run 2km first, then 5km, then 10 km & eventually 20km. If you are unfit, you do NOT run 20km on your first day. That is asking for trouble. Similarly, what happened to our batch was unacceptable. You do NOT subject recruits to that kind of treatment. Not on their very first day of BMT. If it was on the last week of BMT (pressumably most recruits are quite fit by then), it might have been more acceptable.
While I had agreed that fitness had to built up gradually, we had to take into consideration that BMT is only three months, and the time needed to build up fitness simply is not there. Solution? Longer BMT? (Don't curse me all those waiting for enlistment - I don't mean it ) Ultimately, it is the responsibility of those who are about to enlist to ensure that they are prepared for army life. Which brings me back to my initial observation some post back - those responsible (PTI, officers and NCOs) have to work within the constraints of the environment/situation. -
That is why on the end of the trial in a court there is a judge.
That is why on the end of a decision making, there is an officer.
It is up to the officer's discretion to fully utilise their rank and power to request for help.
We cannot be perfect in every ruling or case or law. We need to cater to the needs, and identify different situation.
Imagine a law book with 1 million laws in it to define every dumb thing and it is still incomplete. It wouldn't help.
That's how human factor comes in.