Types of targets at the range.
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Okay,basically in SG,SAF and SPF uses the paper type of targets for firing practices.Wondering if the shooters feel anything.Cuz for me,there was no feelings or anything and the moment the target cums up,I just fire away,no 2nd thoughts or anything.
However,I'm wonderin if the STAR and SOF uses 3D targets like Mannequins or crash bummy type of dolls for live fire exercises during training?Basically,I feel that these type of targets will bring more realism into training by allowing the shooter to shoot at sumthing which resembles a human.CQB and combat as a whole requires swift and decisive split second decisions where by a blink of an eye may even cost death.When in HK,I played Airsoft quite a bit,and have no problems shooting at the male players,however,when it is the female players i have in my sights,i hesitate and end up getting shot.Many other guys in the airsoft community also have such experiences.So i'm wondering what are the merits of using such 3D targets if the SOF or STAR team uses them.As it will let them get used to the kill on sight of a weapon kinda thing.
Please feel free to replay/answer/debate. -
When in HK,I played Airsoft quite a bit,and have no problems shooting at the male players,however,when it is the female players i have in my sights,i hesitate and end up getting shot
Such boergios sentimentality.
On the battlefield, it's you, or the enemy.
You may be interested to know that the US SOCOM Alumni takes a very dim view of "Airsoft Rangers". -
Originally posted by SpecOps87:
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[b]Okay,basically in SG,SAF and SPF uses the paper type of targets for firing practices.Wondering if the shooters feel anything.Cuz for me,there was no feelings or anything and the moment the target cums up,I just fire away,no 2nd thoughts or anything.
[b]
Paper targets?
As far as i am aware, nowhere in Nee Soon Camp 100m range do there exist any paper targets. Only plastic ones.
And to answer your question, i felt absolutely nothing when i engaged the targets with my rifle.
You want total realism. Hmm.
MILES gear training.
Bar that, everything else that i know are silhouete targets. -
I hate the miles gears, its heavy, expensive, and u can cheat using it....... Anyway there are 2 types of target lar, one the the plastic moulded one, the other is paper attached to a wooden board
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Yeah, M16 shooting's quite numbing in that regard, though I think the sense of realism is acquired with the subsequent live-firing experiences for the M203, GPMG, 84mm Carl Gustav & - if you had the chance - adjusting mortar/howitzer rounds on the fly.
Could feel my balls shrink the 1st time I handled each of those weapons (post-dry run). Very self-conscious, & sobering feelings. -
Really 'balls shrink' is demolition... really admire those pioneer guys...Originally posted by Moxie:Yeah, M16 shooting's quite numbing in that regard, though I think the sense of realism is acquired with the subsequent live-firing experiences for the M203, GPMG, 84mm Carl Gustav & - if you had the chance - adjusting mortar/howitzer rounds on the fly.
Could feel my balls shrink the 1st time I handled each of those weapons (post-dry run). Very self-conscious, & sobering feelings.
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when the time comes for the real stuff, u will fire not becos u are fighting for ur country, its becos u are fighting for your own survival. paper target serves to let u practice so u get up to a certain level of expertise and familiarity with the weapon and how far the rd goes b4 it dips etc.
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but to really really answer the question posed by the starter.
SOF in general can do whatever they please in training. You wanna buy a mannequin and use it as a target? Go ahead, just remember to throw the damn thing away when your done.
And dummies have been used in military training before, such as the USMC 8541 course. *grinz*
However, i fail to see how shooting at a 3D target makes any more difference than a 2D one. Seeing that a vast majority of training academies use 2D targets as a matter of course. -
well, 3d target u can see the interior of the dummy ganna wasted mah. see how the bullet 'travel' while in the body. plus dummy allows multiple people to engage it from different angles, of cos, definitely not one infront one behind lah.Originally posted by Johnston:but to really really answer the question posed by the starter.
SOF in general can do whatever they please in training. You wanna buy a mannequin and use it as a target? Go ahead, just remember to throw the damn thing away when your done.
And dummies have been used in military training before, such as the USMC 8541 course. *grinz*
However, i fail to see how shooting at a 3D target makes any more difference than a 2D one. Seeing that a vast majority of training academies use 2D targets as a matter of course.
people use 2d is becos it is sibeh cheap cos normally is a piece of paper niah and 2d target u can 'modify' easily. then it is easier to pop up a 2d target than 3d one.
all in all....is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ -
i really agree, seeing a side charge going off when i was about 200-300 m away, really shrunk my ballsOriginally posted by Cpl Ho:Really 'balls shrink' is demolition... really admire those pioneer guys... -
Am pioneer,
hope you didn't see the side charge going off, if not violation of TSR, all should be under cover (cannot see, for safety lah).Originally posted by Geforce3:i really agree, seeing a side charge going off when i was about 200-300 m away, really shrunk my balls
Maybe what you 'saw' was the land flame mine (not the foregasse as was wrongly identified by another), which is the only one demo you could see whilst not under cover.
BTW The largest charge allowed in Singapore are charges of 5kg TNT flakes total, any more and the glass at NTU library will shatter (complaints had been recieved with 5.5 kg charges).Originally posted by chunyong:
When you hit a target 3D or 2D you seldom see the effect.
well, 3d target u can see the interior of the dummy ganna wasted mah. see how the bullet 'travel' while in the body. plus dummy allows multiple people to engage it from different angles, of cos, definitely not one infront one behind lah.
If hit - drop dead/wounded
if missed - target will take cover.
Only a dummy would expect to see another dummy still standing after being hit.
If you want gore see slasher movies or become a butcher at abattior, then see blood, gore and other stuff all day. -
What about igniting the detonator? That seems to me to be the time when balls really shrink...Originally posted by Geforce3:i really agree, seeing a side charge going off when i was about 200-300 m away, really shrunk my balls
Can u imagine a Bangalore failed to ignite and u have to go re-ignite it again? 
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u get to see the fillings of the doll. it is important to know the path of the bullet to determine is someone passes the test or not. i never meant the doll still stands after being shot, wat i trying to say is dat if it is 3d, it is more possible for another fella (180 deg) to engage it from an angle, if its 2d, not really possible. for example, when someone makes entry from the window, don't expect the bugger to squarely face you mah....more likely he will be facing the door with the hostage.Originally posted by baer:Am pioneer,
When you hit a target 3D or 2D you seldom see the effect.
If hit - drop dead/wounded
if missed - target will take cover.
Only a dummy would expect to see another dummy still standing after being hit.
If you want gore see slasher movies or become a butcher at abattior, then see blood, gore and other stuff all day. -
when the time comes for the real stuff, u will fire not becos u are fighting for ur country, its becos u are fighting for your own survival. paper target serves to let u practice so u get up to a certain level of expertise and familiarity with the weapon and how far the rd goes b4 it dips etc.
Quite true. Range-shooting's more about picking up a skill &, indirectly, the cold efficiency when it comes to pulling the trigger. Does today's recruits still do the 300m rundown, shooting higher/lower at different distances to factor in the bullet-flight trajectory?
I shared notes before with some U.S. online friends who were also weekend hunters as a hobby; they didn't have to undergo "formal" training like me to acquire, in their lingo, the "Eye of The Tiger."
I'm sure local frontline soldiers are conscious about switching to semi-auto mode in a combat setting; IMO what can be improvable upon is, perhaps, more experience firing at moving targets, even 2D ones. What's still most unrealistic, though, is the "gap, gap, gap" shouts troops make whenever they run out of ammo blanks in field training! ~lol~
For me the most unrealistic element is -
Originally posted by Moxie:
The SAF m16 range has moving figure 11s at 100m. And also the SAR21 range with moving figure 11s at 200m. Bloody hell to shoot these after a rundown. Furthermore you have to run down again to shoot moving figure 11s at 100m. As the timing is different, it's not easy to shoot both accurately w/o practice.
I'm sure local frontline soldiers are conscious about switching to semi-auto mode in a combat setting; IMO what can be improvable upon is, perhaps, more experience firing at moving targets, even 2D ones. What's still most unrealistic, though, is the "gap, gap, gap" shouts troops make whenever they run out of ammo blanks in field training! ~lol~ -
in the past, they used to train soldiers with bulls-eyes...
then in the battlefield, the soldiers could not bring themselves to shoot another human being...
that's not good to the generals.. so they made the "human target" for practice...
no hesitation from then on...
dehumanisation? maybe...
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only for ATPOriginally posted by Moxie:Quite true. Range-shooting's more about picking up a skill &, indirectly, the cold efficiency when it comes to pulling the trigger. Does today's recruits still do the 300m rundown, shooting higher/lower at different distances to factor in the bullet-flight trajectory?
I shared notes before with some U.S. online friends who were also weekend hunters as a hobby; they didn't have to undergo "formal" training like me to acquire, in their lingo, the "Eye of The Tiger."
I'm sure local frontline soldiers are conscious about switching to semi-auto mode in a combat setting; IMO what can be improvable upon is, perhaps, more experience firing at moving targets, even 2D ones. What's still most unrealistic, though, is the "gap, gap, gap" shouts troops make whenever they run out of ammo blanks in field training! ~lol~
For me the most unrealistic element is
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aiyah, when the bullets start to rain u will shoot for ur life one, u have to cos u dun wanna die. its natural instinct.Originally posted by the Bear:in the past, they used to train soldiers with bulls-eyes...
then in the battlefield, the soldiers could not bring themselves to shoot another human being...
that's not good to the generals.. so they made the "human target" for practice...
no hesitation from then on...
dehumanisation? maybe... -
You may not want to die but would you want to kill another human being?
During WWII, there was a study set up to investigate human nature during a firefight. Up to 65% of respondents replied that they would not return fire when fired upon. They would cower instead. Only when encouraged to fire by a Sect Comm or Platoon Leader, do they blaze away. Again, they do not take careful aim and shoot off instead, to alleviate frustration.
When the Sect Comm or Platoon Leader moves away, the men will just go back to a cowering position.
Due to the findings of that study, range targets were changed to Figure targets. Prior to WWII, it was common practice to shoot at bull's eye kind of targets. Figure targets are believed to de-sensitise the shooter's brain.
Again, note the reluctance of a typical human in a firefight. Group leaders and small-unit commanders make a big difference. -
Stoopid... You shout "Gap! Gap! Gap!" after a breech in the wire in an assult of a Fortified Objective (DUH!).Originally posted by Moxie:What's still most unrealistic, though, is the "gap, gap, gap" shouts troops make whenever they run out of ammo blanks in field training! ~lol~
For me the most unrealistic element is
When you 'stimulate' (rather simulate) firing rounds (w/o blanks) you go "Bang! Bang! Bang!", you must have had a very deprived childhood if you never played enuff. -
Originally posted by meander:
Hmmm I had to instruct 2 years of CTSS, M-16 firing was 200m fig.12 (half body) x1 then x2, then moving fig.11 x 1 x 3. 100 same same mah!
The SAF m16 range has moving figure 11s at 100m. And also the SAR21 range with moving figure 11s at [b]200m. Bloody hell to shoot these after a rundown. Furthermore you have to run down again to shoot moving figure 11s at 100m. As the timing is different, it's not easy to shoot both accurately w/o practice.[/b] -
Haha... whether you hit anything is another question wor...Originally posted by chunyong:aiyah, when the bullets start to rain u will shoot for ur life one, u have to cos u dun wanna die. its natural instinct.
Or worse still hit your own ppl... 
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haha, most of the bullet miss in a war one lah....by the time u really aim already ganna a few stray bullet liao...agaration fire to keep them down while ur buddies advance loh...Originally posted by Cpl Ho:Haha... whether you hit anything is another question wor... Or worse still hit your own ppl... -
aiya i think kids nowadays shoot n kill so many 3D human figures in CS they are desensitised to murder already.