Does abusing soldiers makes them tougher?
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with your complete lack of confidence for our defense force, what do you then suggest?Originally posted by littlespotz:ask you guys a question, do u guys HONESTLY BELIEVE the crap that our soldiers can fight to win a war? the bulk of our soldiers come not from regular serice or even NSF but from the Reservists. yet looking at the attitute of the reservists, i have very serious doubts. and these R the ones who went tru the so-called 2G trg. hmm. r they tough? most of them r so fat n flabby even a pig would b ashamed!!
and let's not forget that singapore isn't that great an area after all. by the time war reaches our shores, they'll be within striking distances of every important place we have here. so where do we fight our wars? of course overseas right? is anyone so naive as to think that all countries allow uarmed forces to land on their lands and procede to blast say. oh their fields and roads as war explode around them?! NO!
my thinking? singapore will never go to war and if it does, it'll call up the US and other countries for repayment of favours!
or are you already packing your bags, preparing to leave the very moment calamity occurs? -
well, it doesn't help to have FULL confidence or even partial confidence if they aren't up to scratch. I mean, like im sure some Kuwatis had absolute confidence in their defense force. Did that stop Saddam from rolling in? Nooooooooo...Originally posted by wuming78:with your complete lack of confidence for our defense force, what do you then suggest?
or are you already packing your bags, preparing to leave the very moment calamity occurs?
Confidence alone makes a good army not, and overconfidence kills. 'Nuff said. -
ask you guys a question, do u guys HONESTLY BELIEVE the crap that our soldiers can fight to win a war?
Why not? I'm part of the 2G Army, but never pretended that we were some type of Rambo or elite status. Sure, we're reservist but how many citizen armies around the world train for as long as we do?
It's not like a real war won't be a mad dash for glory either. Each of us will face the gauntlet personally, but until then all the preparatory training - weapon proficiency, group efficiency, team bonding, problem solving - cannot but put us in good stead. Poor fitness wasn't what caused the Commonwealth forces to run all the way downcountry against the Jap onslaught.
Besides, having gone through the whole ICT cycle, I could circumscribe out a timespan - generally between your 2nd high-key to your 10th year or so - where 1stly, unit morale is quite high & 2ndly, the citizen soldiers' collective maturity more than offsets the by-the-textbook ways of the younger conscripts. Yes, the IPPT scores may differ, but I dare bet the scores for the other combat quality-control tests (eg. ATEC or FATEP that assesses tactics, coordination & competence) are just as good, if not higher, for the reservists. Operational-ready isn't just a buzzword, you know.
The newly-revised reservist cycle - 3 BIT stints to close out 7 high-key ICTs - would suggest MINDEF took our feedback seriously.is anyone so naive as to think that all countries allow uarmed forces to land on their lands and procede to blast say. oh their fields and roads as war explode around them?! NO!
No doubt S'pore's strategic thinking consists primarily of possible war scenarios against our immediate neighbors - but do think this through more.
Yes, the option of invading Malaysian hinterland has always been around, in order to forestall anyone imitating the Japs. But Malaysia still can't get its house in order; the '60s-70s communist insurgency, the more-recent Islamic fundamentalism, & the periodic belligerence of communalist politics constantly threatened their internal security. The counterinsurgency needs still presents stem their ambitions to upgrade to a conventional force. We're wary of those developments more than the Mahathir government's saber-rattling.
The Indonesian archipelago doesn't offer a security threat, partly due to its multifaceted size & also the long LKY-Suharto friendship. That is, unless it decides to build nuclear plants for economic benefits or something. The ongoing irritants - esp. piracy, the haze & an extradiction treaty - are manageable, while any possibility of civil strife (with accompanying Chinese exodus to these shores) currently "subdued" by the JI terrorist menace.
Despite the regional rivalries, there's also more indirect territorial cooperation that you think - particularly guarding against the Vietnam Communists (until the '90s). Huxley mentioned the CDOs were sent to train near the Thai border in the '70s partly to learn the ground, while in the next decade we also supposedly considered helping Malaysia to defend against any Viet aggression. -
How does Singapore army reservist match up against other country army reservist? When i read every post in this thread. It gives me a feeling that Singapore National Service is very easy compare to other country. It seem that country like South Korea, Taiwan and Isreal have much tougher National Service than Singapore.
I begin to wonder. Did Tim Huxley overestimated Singapore army! -
Originally posted by want to know:
Please do not base on those bias feedbacks. Not comparing the full time national service but come to reservist training, SAF is very series. Doubt that they really know what type of reservist training in others.
How does Singapore army reservist match up against other country army reservist? When i read every post in this thread. It gives me a feeling that Singapore National Service is very easy compare to other country. It seem that country like South Korea, Taiwan and Isreal have much tougher National Service than Singapore.
I begin to wonder. Did Tim Huxley [b]overestimated Singapore army![/b]
Taiwan reservist training is almost none at all, other rank only 1 day reporting, officer is 3 days doctrine & weapons update, does it call training?
Lucky or unlucky that during the reservist training in infantry & arty unit, the 'Mexican' was involved & they commend on our reservist training standard & demand, for them is preparing & ready for war. Do not forget, reservist is main core of fighting troop not the so call un-operational NSF.
Tim Huxley did mention correct that our army is not tested & have war experience. That why SAF involve so many 'peace' mission oversea. -
Where did you get this information from? Got any links?Originally posted by seachfun:Taiwan reservist training is almost none at all, other rank only 1 day reporting, officer is 3 days doctrine & weapons update, does it call training? -
training makes soldier tougher, abusing dont.
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Taiwanese soldier.Originally posted by want to know:Where did you get this information from? Got any links? -
I find it hard to believe!(With China talking about liberating Taiwan) It is better if you have any links? May be ask your Taiwanese friend to come to this forum to share his experience in the Taiwanese army with us. It will be very interesting.Originally posted by seachfun:Taiwanese soldier. -
I find it hard to believe!(With China talking about liberating Taiwan) It is better if you have any links? May be ask your Taiwanese friend to come to this forum to share his experience in the Taiwanese army with us. It will be very interesting.
From the way you post, I take it you're from the outside looking in - foreigner or student?
Don't anyhow hantam, or ask another to do the defending for you. Back up your own claims.Taiwanese soldier.
Taiwanese reservists supposedly serve until the age only 30. Considering they could enlist as late as 20something (for various reasons) & have no set retraining cycle after they ORD, it tells you just how extensive or intensive their preparation is in this area. What they do have is numbers, unlike S'pore.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/taiwan/afrc.htmI mean, like im sure some Kuwatis had absolute confidence in their defense force.
Personally I thought the Kuwaiti peng fought well when given the chance; they're no worse than Iraqi conscripts. Kuwait was let done by their staff commands, loafers who "kao shan" the Americans too much & underestimated the Iraqi amassing at the border, even invading during dawn.
We are not Taiwan, Israel, Kuwait or whatever, but they're not like us too. S'pore cannot afford any war of attrition but, for its small size, I speculate it won't be easily conquered. Have you actually topo'd, recce'd or plain walk the ground before (even if it's to track how the Japs invaded)? It's been 60 years since then, but with the massive urbanization it's gonna take an army of superb FIBUA skills to secure the heartlands. IMO Our environs resemble a modern Asiatic version of Stalingrad, or Saravejo, or to some extent Baghad.
S'pore's biggest weakness is the water supply; that's why the upcountry-annexation option will never be ruled out in our interests.[/quote] -
Thanks for the link.Originally posted by Moxie:Taiwanese reservists supposedly serve until the age only 30. Considering they could enlist as late as 20something (for various reasons) & have no set retraining cycle after they ORD, it tells you just how extensive or intensive their preparation is in this area. What they do have is numbers, unlike S'pore.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/taiwan/afrc.htm
Do you think 3,060,000 reserve troops is enough to defend Taiwan from China? I know this may sound stupid but China have more numbers than Taiwan if China draft it men into the army. I heard that China had some sort of National Service for university students. -
they need to get them across the taiwan straits first before they can be anything other than useless. personally.. i would look more into the machine spec first before looking into the infantry number.Originally posted by want to know:Thanks for the link.
Do you think 3,060,000 reserve troops is enough to defend Taiwan from China? I know this may sound stupid but China have more numbers than Taiwan if China draft it men into the army. I heard that China had some sort of National Service for university students. -
hmm.. close to a million died on each side in the battle of stalingrad hor.. how about baghad? guess we never know.Originally posted by Moxie:We are not Taiwan, Israel, Kuwait or whatever, but they're not like us too. S'pore cannot afford any war of attrition but, for its small size, I speculate it won't be easily conquered. Have you actually topo'd, recce'd or plain walk the ground before (even if it's to track how the Japs invaded)? It's been 60 years since then, but with the massive urbanization it's gonna take an army of superb FIBUA skills to secure the heartlands. IMO Our environs resemble a modern Asiatic version of Stalingrad, or Saravejo, or to some extent Baghad. -
Our heavily built up city is a nightmare for any infantry force to acheive control and supremacy, barring carpet bombings which does not fully elimintate all buildings and their core.Doo -to -door fighting will wear an enemy down..FIBUA is a tough order and it can demoralise an army which planned for a quick victory..RE: IRAQ.
I would like to see an urban war in NYC, wonder how long it would take for a foreign army to hypothetically gain full control of the Big Apple. -
im not so sure the kuwaitis had full confidence of their armed force. their royal family had always neglected their armed force.Originally posted by HENG@:well, it doesn't help to have FULL confidence or even partial confidence if they aren't up to scratch. I mean, like im sure some Kuwatis had absolute confidence in their defense force. Did that stop Saddam from rolling in? Nooooooooo...
Confidence alone makes a good army not, and overconfidence kills. 'Nuff said.
anyway what im asking is not for littlespot to have confidence, but for some suggestion.
and here i am refering to confidence a citizen has of his armed force, not the members of the armed force have of themselves. overconfidence in the latter kills. but if there is a complete lack of confidence with the military, either by the citizens or any foreigners, we cant possibly make any firm stand in our foreign policies. -
confidence in our armed forces is built up by what they do and what they show us they can do. Unfortunately if all we get to see is how they mess up, then u can't blame us for not having any confidence.Originally posted by wuming78:im not so sure the kuwaitis had full confidence of their armed force. their royal family had always neglected their armed force.
anyway what im asking is not for littlespot to have confidence, but for some suggestion.
and here i am refering to confidence a citizen has of his armed force, not the members of the armed force have of themselves. overconfidence in the latter kills. but if there is a complete lack of confidence with the military, either by the citizens or any foreigners, we cant possibly make any firm stand in our foreign policies. -
actually, i am currently serving my national service... i'm on a 10-day leave but most of my friends are busy studying for exams, so i spend most of my day sleeping and watching crap on tv (i haven't watched tv for over a year now, come to think of it).
ok, first what exactly do we mean by "abuse"? corporal punishment, i.e. slapping, kicking, punching soldiers?? or hazing, i.e. forcing new privates to undergo an "initiation process" (which may or may not include corporal punishment)???
well to answer your question, officially corporal punishment and hazing is illegal in the korean military... unofficially though, hehe...hazing is still thiriving, and corporal punishment, though not as bad as it used to be, is still around... though the severity of both really differs from unit to unit. some units are very brutal, while others are reputed to be quite slack.
basically, it's an old tradition in our military, passed down from senior enlisted to junior. eventually, in time, the "juniors" become the "seniors".... and the process repeats itself.
i won't go into too many details on a public forum, though i will say that the first few weeks after i arrived at my unit were the worst in my life. compared to the hazing i received at my unit, basic training was a breeze. i was pushed to the limits of my mental and physical endurance... each night when i was finally allowed to go to bed i wanted to cry because the hazing was so severe. i actually became sick with fever and vomitting, but some seniors thought i was malingering, so they kept on punishing me until i "realised" that no, actually, i wasn't sick!!!
these days, i still shudder when i think of the hazing i went through as a private. (if u really wanna know the details i can pm you, i guess.)
right now, i'm a corporal in the army. for the record, i have never been hit, although when i was in basic training i was often handled physically, like being shoved to the ground, lifted by the collar and thrown, and choked (once!
) by my drill sergeant. but i escaped the worst because i was quiet and kept my head down.
personally, i don't approve of corporal punishment - nothing too severe at least. it's risky - no one ever died from doing too many pushups, flutterkicks, sleep deprivement, threats, etc. - but someone can be seriously injured if beaten up... i know this one guy who was beaten on an almost daily basis when he was a private - he eventually landed in hospital! (he recovered and left in one piece - no permanent damage, lucky for him.)
if one really needs to use the @sshole approach, i've observed that just swearing and threating to beat the shit out of an unmotivated soldier while waving an entrenching tool usually works well enough!
either that, or make him go into a modified pushup position, except that his head is on the ground and his hands behind his back... he'll be crying for mercy in no time!!
hmmm, so did the hazing toughen me? i think it did, but mostly mentally. physically, i was actually worse than before - the constant fear, stress, and punishments took a toll on my health; i became very sick (and when i reported that i was feeling "ill", my seniors responded by doubling the intensity of the hazing!!!) but one thing i learned: the human body (and mind) is more resilient than we think... and what doesn't kill you, really does make you stronger! (it's a quote from Nietzche, btw)
NOTE: the "barraks room" hazing i described here is to be understood as different from the training, which is a completely different animal. i'm not from combat arms so i can't speak with any authority on their training, though from what i hear and observe it really, really sucks to be infantry. i work as an interpreter for a bunch of occifers, so i don't really have any "field training" to speak of besides basic training and the occasional roadmarch, NBC training, basic skills training, range, etc...
the korean army is already hell to begin with....!!!!!! confined to base for 2 years (there are no "weekend pass", only a few "leaves" per soldier for duration of the 2 years), sh!tty living conditions, even more sh!tty pay (we get allowance of maybe SG$20-40 a month depending on rank), and a very brutal, if neccessary, hazing system.
i had a friend who volunteeered for Marine Corps infantry; i thought he was insane, though i admired his spunk at the same time. if i was an american, maybe i'd volunteer for combat arms in u.s. military, but not in the korean army.... but that's just me -
one thing i've noticed is that abuse seems to depend largely on the instructors themselves. Personally i was never abused during BMT, and my BMT Plt Sgt was someone who knew how to motivate ppl very well. He was fierce when needed, granted, and he often threatened to throw his boots at us, but darned if we actually thought he would undo his boots just to take them off n throw at us. He was also my sec comd because we had a shortage of sgts, and when we broke down to sections for training, he was the one who motivated us very well. my section often got our training done right the st time 'round because he was that good. ultimately, when we POPed, he was one of the most well liked Plt Sgts around, and he got a lot of us to actually pass BMT with flying colours.
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if any of u guys curious about ROK military these are some pretty good websites in english....
http://www.csun.edu/~btk29323/main.html
and this one's about korean soldiers in vietnam....
http://cafe3.ktdom.com/vietvet/us/us.htm
"Captured Viet Cong orders now stipulate that contact with the Koreans is to be avoided at all costs unless a Viet Cong victory is 100% certain. Never defy Korean soldiers without discrimination, even when are not armed, for they all well trained with Taekwondo."
An excerpt from an enemy directive seized. - July 22, 1966 Time - -
Thanks for the link.Originally posted by comberbache:if any of u guys curious about ROK military these are some pretty good websites in english....
http://www.csun.edu/~btk29323/main.html
and this one's about korean soldiers in vietnam....
http://cafe3.ktdom.com/vietvet/us/us.htm
"Captured Viet Cong orders now stipulate that contact with the Koreans is to be avoided at all costs unless a Viet Cong victory is 100% certain. Never defy Korean soldiers without discrimination, even when are not armed, for they all well trained with Taekwondo."
An excerpt from an enemy directive seized. - July 22, 1966 Time - I admire Korean a lots they are very proud of their military.
What do you think of Singapore National Service? You don't have to hold back on your comment just because this is a Singaporean forum. Be as direct as possible.
So thats means every able body men in Korea are well trained in Taekwondo. What is your belt in Taekwondo? How often do you trained every day? Do Korean men still continue to practice Taekwondo aften National Service?Originally posted by comberbache:Never defy Korean soldiers without discrimination, even when are not armed, for they all well trained with Taekwondo. -
but there will be ppl who will simply attack u for not being "loyal" never mind the old saying "Liang yao ku kou"Originally posted by want to know:What do you think of Singapore National Service? You don't have to hold back on your comment just because this is a Singaporean forum. Be as direct as possible. -
Interesting read this thread. However see little evidence of rank and file, reservist or even instructors/trainers with their side of story.
I am on last year of active cycle (retiring as reservist next April), was BMT instructor, am infantry pioneer section commander.
BMT, when I was active, may seem like hell without the drama today. We had unwritten rules, no physical contact with trainees, no abuse of family, economic, religious or racial origins. What we did was more towards mental strengthening. Vocal abuse was after a time curtailed because foul language was deemed 'inappropriate'. There was still a lot of noise given the need to condition recruits to 'do' not 'second guess then react' to basic orders like 'cover fire' instead of taking cover.
Corporal punishment was at platoon/section level. Individual attention was only for special attention cases, known trouble makers and obvious slackers. In my 2 year and close to 320 recruits (trained within my platoon), we only had one case of 'fail BMT'. He was on SAF regular contract and thought he could just slide through BMT.
Our creed was simple, what we taught had to give each and every recruit basic survival skills in a shooting war. Basic weapon skills, discipline to follow proper orders (regardless how great the inhibitions they may have), mental stamina to carry on beyond their phyiscal limits and a fierce pride in their unit, their buddies and themselves.
In ITD half the battles were mental, handling Scholar Batches, Obese (average weight at start was 85kg). Physical training was graduated but mental conditioning was from day 1.
I never agree to hazing as it is determental. A proper sequence of "instruct", "warn" then 'punish' works within a structured framework to train soliders. The army has no time for another dunking tub incident which serves no-one except to make commando trainers feel like 'lords of the tub' with no military value whatsoever. Find it hard to believe that the trainers at 1Cdo still believe that guardsmen can benefit what was originally designed for Ranger/SAS troops. -
Do you think 3,060,000 reserve troops is enough to defend Taiwan from China? I know this may sound stupid but China have more numbers than Taiwan if China draft it men into the army. I heard that China had some sort of National Service for university students.
It should be more than enough, since this isn't the Napoleonic days when pure army size ruled the day. That said, China keep practicing these old-style Normandy-type beach assaults, & Taiwanese war-game simulation predicts the defenders could only hold out for 6 days ~lol~
Battles aren't fought between sides that number in the millions. Even one that totals the hundred-thousands is already very epic, like the 200,000-strong Red Army (plus 3 million civilians & winter-approaching weather) that defended Stalingrad. -
well, it depends on the unit. The Marines, Rangers, and Special Forces have intensive training in military Taekwondo....they train everyday, or something like that. also, combat arms units train regularly in Taekwondo.Originally posted by want to know:So thats means every able body men in Korea are well trained in Taekwondo. What is your belt in Taekwondo? How often do you trained every day? Do Korean men still continue to practice Taekwondo aften National Service?
but REMFs like me don't really train alot in TKD, at least in my unit.... other units still do it, but it's not as intensive, as one might expect.
most koreans are trained in TKD, but i would not say WELL-trained, except for the hardcore units....
for me, i have a black belt (1st Dan) but it's really nothing. -
Indeed.Interesting to note from your standpoint.I think that soldiers should be trained smartly so that they understand the rationale behind orders, and the same for commanders, do not give unrealistic orders to servicemen just to boost your ego.It's all about professionalism and the right way to inculcate into a trainee that he has a stake in what he is fighting for and to educate him on the possible methods to carry that out.We need to take care of your guys and be taken care of too.What makes a good soldier effective is the feeling he has that he is worth something and people are relying on him to get the job done.Invest in your men, and they will repay what you have sown.Thrash them to get your physical kicks, do not be surprised to see them pointing a rifle at you when war comes.Originally posted by baer:Interesting read this thread. However see little evidence of rank and file, reservist or even instructors/trainers with their side of story.
I am on last year of active cycle (retiring as reservist next April), was BMT instructor, am infantry pioneer section commander.
BMT, when I was active, may seem like hell without the drama today. We had unwritten rules, no physical contact with trainees, no abuse of family, economic, religious or racial origins. What we did was more towards mental strengthening. Vocal abuse was after a time curtailed because foul language was deemed 'inappropriate'. There was still a lot of noise given the need to condition recruits to 'do' not 'second guess then react' to basic orders like 'cover fire' instead of taking cover.
Corporal punishment was at platoon/section level. Individual attention was only for special attention cases, known trouble makers and obvious slackers. In my 2 year and close to 320 recruits (trained within my platoon), we only had one case of 'fail BMT'. He was on SAF regular contract and thought he could just slide through BMT.
Our creed was simple, what we taught had to give each and every recruit basic survival skills in a shooting war. Basic weapon skills, discipline to follow proper orders (regardless how great the inhibitions they may have), mental stamina to carry on beyond their phyiscal limits and a fierce pride in their unit, their buddies and themselves.
In ITD half the battles were mental, handling Scholar Batches, Obese (average weight at start was 85kg). Physical training was graduated but mental conditioning was from day 1.
I never agree to hazing as it is determental. A proper sequence of "instruct", "warn" then 'punish' works within a structured framework to train soliders. The army has no time for another dunking tub incident which serves no-one except to make commando trainers feel like 'lords of the tub' with no military value whatsoever. Find it hard to believe that the trainers at 1Cdo still believe that guardsmen can benefit what was originally designed for Ranger/SAS troops.