RSAF vs IAF rersults?
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Regardless of whether did RSAF defeated the IAF or The IAF defeated RSAF it doesnt matter anymore. Both should be placing more emphasis on the after action review.Originally posted by YI:well say. i am much relieved now.
Such event benefits RSAF air combat technique and its future procurement. At least its a wake up call for our airforce and the procurement agency -
All such documents and commentary on both Cope India, and the recent exercise... are classified ....
"Deny everything" - level.
Go find a USAF officer willing to comment on it.
And put it on record.
You'd have better luck finding Area 51.
Go find a RSAF officer willing to speak on the record.
You'd have better luck finding Yamashita's gold. -
Maybe the RSAF is over-rated after all.
They are preening themselves on self-proclaimed glory. And friendly evaluations from interested parties.
Time for an ASEAN Top Gun contest, no? Let's see how our flyboys perform against their kampung cousins from RMAF and RTAF
Methinks the guys up north could spring a few unpleasant surprises! -
That's the point isn't it?Originally posted by maxwellsmart:Maybe the RSAF is over-rated after all.
They are preening themselves on self-proclaimed glory. And friendly evaluations from interested parties.
Time for an ASEAN Top Gun contest, no? Let's see how our flyboys perform against their kampung cousins from RMAF and RTAF
Methinks the guys up north could spring a few unpleasant surprises!
One of the reason that IAF and RSAF conducted the exe is actually to test eachother potential adversary, IAF is Pak F-16s and RSAF are the MAF 's Mig29 & SU-30.
By having exe with Mig-29 & SU-30MK, our pilots will at least will have the knowledge on these a/c performances, that itself will reduce any unpleasant surprises.
So regardless who wins in the exe, or what's the ROE, both airforces gain valuable points from it.
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its called, learning from mistakes. if there was any.Originally posted by beavan:so it means that we might have lost in theory, but overall in our eyes we still "won?"
wow cool........
one thing to learn, do not speculate... and learn while you can, before its too late to learn anymore -
one thing i learnt... do not speculate if you are not sure.Originally posted by Johnston:All such documents and commentary on both Cope India, and the recent exercise... are classified ....
"Deny everything" - level.
Go find a USAF officer willing to comment on it.
And put it on record.
You'd have better luck finding Area 51.
Go find a RSAF officer willing to speak on the record.
You'd have better luck finding Yamashita's gold. -
From what i know, RSAF is following my signature..
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the pics in the papers showed an F-16 that doesnt have the spine....maybe its not our best.
Anyway the most likely way to test for both sides is if both sides stripped they're planes down to what the enemy wld have
Example our F-16's might have been stripped down to have what the Paki's have while the Indian planes would be down to what Malaysia has. -
One of the few sensible post.Originally posted by sgdiehard:agree, there is nothing wrong if it is true that RSAF lost out this time. it is better to learn lessons now than to realise our shortcomings in real combat.
The Indians thrashed the Americans, didn't they? So why can't they thrash us, too?
Where does so many people get this impression that we are somehow invincible?
The Indians didn't have such a soft landing when they found out decades ago their airforce were not as superior as they thought. During one of their wars with Pakistan in the 60's or 70's, the IAF got thrashed by Pakistan. -
here is here
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i honestly think we got thrashed and we thrashed them.I believe that our F-16's were stripped down to the bare minimum while the IAF planes were at they're best.And we got thrashed or at least lost.After which we put back the goodies while the IAF removed their's and we thrashed or won them.Thus either side saying the won wont be that far fetched.Anyway like i said the F-16's i saw in the pictures had no spine.....so they most likely arent the best are they?Originally posted by tripwire:it is fine if we got trashed and learn from it.. but....
why must you assume that we got trashed in the first place? how do you know if we got trashed at all?
to me.. if both sides decides to keep silent over the competition... its a sign of maturity of RSAF and IAF.... as well as a sign of mutual respect.
in a sense... to me, the silence is a very good sign that our RSAF Probably trashed the IAF. but that's an assumption....
afterall, didnt our chief of air force already gave a hint? as he said....
"We are very pleased with the exercise and the performance of the RSAF's pilots and aircraft. The Indian Air Force has been an excellent host, and as their guest, it would not be courteous for us to comment on the specific outcomes of the exercise"
why would it be NOT courteous? ever asked yourself that? because we beat the host?
come on.... we are a small nation, and if news gets out that our small airforce has beaten the shit out of our host, its neither gonna be good for our diplomatic relationship with india, nor would it encourage future cooperations.
in fact... it could create a storm in india and could see our host, the indian chief of air force getting grilled alive by their govt!! that would not be in our interest at all!! its important to see things from a higher perspective then just simplistic who win or loose!
as to the previous report about SU-30K beating our F-16C/D, did not our chief of air force said....
"We can understand why the Indian media would come out with a sensational story like this."
wow.... our chief dismiss their previous report as SENSATIONAL STORY!! for anyone who understand english... a STORY... is a fiction, in short, our chief has officially stated that the previous news is a FAKE!
but why isit that our chief says... WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHY? because that news is meant for local consumption as well as pakistanis consumption...
it probably didnt matter if RSAF wins or loose, the indians were out to exploit this opportunity of the presence of the falcon in india to make pakistan look stupid!
so... even if our falcon wins 100 out of 100... you can be damn sure that such a story of SU-30K beat Falcon would come out! because it serves a purpose for india, a politically , socially and militarily purpose..against pakistan.
what more do you want our chief of air force, being a guest to say to convince you that our airforce, even if they had not won the day, they probably didnt loose either!
All in all... its really a very negative thinking, that just because there were no annoucement of a winner, we automatically assume we were the loser!
understand that our airforce exercise round the world, if our pilots and planes are so incompetent, they wouldnt have sent them around the world to throw our face!
and since deterence is key in our defence policies, it would be detrimental to our deterence capability if our airforce were consistantly rated incompetent overseas.
the fact that our airforce continue to participate overseas, and won many accolades, shows that we are of international standard. and we should be proud of our boys!.
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Do take note that SU-30 is a NGF to the indians themselves....
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So? Is there a rule that NGFs are a 100% sure-win against older aircraft?Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:Do take note that SU-30 is a NGF to the indians themselves....
In the hands of incompetent people (no implecations, just an example), high tech equipment still cannot defeat club wielding cavemen. A prime example is simple home-made explosives defeating a next generation armour in the Middle east.
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The F16 have no spine is because its a C model. Only the D models have the spine and they are 2 seaters.
Anyway the spines are for different purposes other than for air-combat.
If you want to talk about manouverabilty in air combat, I'd go for the single seat F16 because its definitely more agile than a 2 seater.
If you're talking about who won and lost, kill ratio and all. Its all subjective as to who's simulating Blue/Red Air. Definitely we take turns to simulate Blue/Red Air and usually the Red Air will be cuffed ( simulate less capable weapons, etc). So thats how the results usually come about.
So its all very subjective. -
heh , that means i could use some vintage SpitFires and attack TUDM's MIG-29 and SU-30?Originally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:So? Is there a rule that NGFs are a 100% sure-win against older aircraft?
In the hands of incompetent people (no implecations, just an example), high tech equipment still cannot defeat club wielding cavemen. A prime example is simple home-made explosives defeating a next generation armour in the Middle east.
=D
The spines have some sensitive equipment inside, as for Israel's F-16 I , their spine is modded in "locally" i think...
The spines is for SEAD and ar...its for destroying Jernas and ASTROS.. -
No but a simple slab of C4 with a fuse and ignitor is enough to transform your high tech equipment into scrap metal.Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:heh , that means i could use some vintage SpitFires and attack TUDM's MIG-29 and SU-30?
=D -
double post
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the rsaf doesn't have any confidence in you also, so it more or less evens outOriginally posted by SibeiSuayKia:Im beginning to lose my confidence on RSAF after this matter.. -
den SAF no confidence on me..Originally posted by branzzz:the rsaf doesn't have any confidence in you also, so it more or less evens out
branzzz: ok NCC boy , you are exempted from NS, because SAF have no confidence on you!
SBSK : ok with 2 years of my life...if each year of my life...is worth $50,000
i would have saved $100,000!! -
here.
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IAF thinks that they can beat the hell outta of an F16 with their Sukhois. Whether the max cap of our F16s is used during the exercise, well will never know, but it makes the IAF happy. India our host and its people are happy coz Pakistan getting F16s. Everybody in India is happy.
Even if the IAF was getting its ass kicked by the RSAF during the exercise, die die also must say they doing well coz or not the IAF commanders are throwing their own rice bowls onto the ground.
Our neighbour up north also very happy coz they think they do not need to sell more palm oil for more advanced jets. If the IAF can beat the RSAF, the RMAF also can. RMAF happy.
We found out where our weaknesses lie against the Sukhoi and now can take corrective measures and correct weapon platforms to nullify the threat instead of finding this out during an actual conflict, RSAF very happy.
IAF very happy with the exercise so are willing to welcome RSAF back again for more exercises and even open up bases for RSAF to have detachments to, RSAF very happy, got more training spaces, IAF happy, got more money coming in, the people of India are also happy, more business coming. Businessman all very happy.
I think in the end... what is important is not a question of who were the victors of the exercise... the important outcome seems like everyone was happy. Happy for what, we do not know... but nevertheless happy.
There is already too much pain and suffering in this world so some happiness is good. Dun worry be happy. -
Old Bird - My compliment for an excellent post.Originally posted by Old Bird:IAF thinks that they can beat the hell outta of an F16 with their Sukhois. Whether the max cap of our F16s is used during the exercise, well will never know, but it makes the IAF happy. India our host and its people are happy coz Pakistan getting F16s. Everybody in India is happy.
Even if the IAF was getting its ass kicked by the RSAF during the exercise, die die also must say they doing well coz or not the IAF commanders are throwing their own rice bowls onto the ground.
Our neighbour up north also very happy coz they think they do not need to sell more palm oil for more advanced jets. If the IAF can beat the RSAF, the RMAF also can. RMAF happy.
We found out where our weaknesses lie against the Sukhoi and now can take corrective measures and correct weapon platforms to nullify the threat instead of finding this out during an actual conflict, RSAF very happy.
IAF very happy with the exercise so are willing to welcome RSAF back again for more exercises and even open up bases for RSAF to have detachments to, RSAF very happy, got more training spaces, IAF happy, got more money coming in, the people of India are also happy, more business coming. Businessman all very happy.
I think in the end... what is important is not a question of who were the victors of the exercise... the important outcome seems like everyone was happy. Happy for what, we do not know... but nevertheless happy.
There is already too much pain and suffering in this world so some happiness is good. Dun worry be happy. -
Huh? You don't know the SAF's main arms buying policy in general? Upgrade an old technology somewhat with saving costs as the top priority, wayang a lot and rub it in the faces of our counterparts until they buey tahan spend lots of money hapazardly to get extremely expensive better capabilities which they can barely sustain to shut us up...
And then we ba long long take our time to come up aquire something far better at a far better price as well, effectively leapfrogging them, in the end, we have spent our dollar far better while our counterpart's def. budget is spent all over the shop... -
which results in a force where they have 10 jets and only 2 can fly.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Huh? You don't know the SAF's main arms buying policy in general? Upgrade an old technology somewhat with saving costs as the top priority, wayang a lot and rub it in the faces of our counterparts until they buey tahan spend lots of money hapazardly to get extremely expensive better capabilities which they can barely sustain to shut us up...
And then we ba long long take our time to come up aquire something far better at a far better price as well, effectively leapfrogging them, in the end, we have spent our dollar far better while our counterpart's def. budget is spent all over the shop... -
F-16 is design to be a cost effective fighter, it is a good multi-purpose plane that will still will be the star fighter in any war.
Getting a F-16 to fight a su-30 is exactly like asking the F-16 to dog fight the f-15. Of course the F-16 is in disadvantage as both F-15 and Su30 have twin engine which have more power and more equipment.
But of course for getting F-15 and Su30 there is a price to pay, which is so much more expensive. Even US cannot afford that much F-15 that why the main backbone fighters is still F-16.
Although Su-30 is consider great, I am sure the RSAF already have that consideration, that is why they are looking for NGF like eurofighter, which is totally design from the start to outfight su-30 from the start.