RSAF vs IAF rersults?
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Haha - that's what they call a set up.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Huh? You don't know the SAF's main arms buying policy in general? Upgrade an old technology somewhat with saving costs as the top priority, wayang a lot and rub it in the faces of our counterparts until they buey tahan spend lots of money hapazardly to get extremely expensive better capabilities which they can barely sustain to shut us up...
And then we ba long long take our time to come up aquire something far better at a far better price as well, effectively leapfrogging them, in the end, we have spent our dollar far better while our counterpart's def. budget is spent all over the shop...
Its like in a game of chess......... a few small pawns can be sacrificed to set up the opponent's king for the kill. Sometimes it is not the number of pieces of 'men' on the board that counts but rather the quality, pawns can only move one step at the time.
Being formidable during exercises is a nice plus factor for morale but it is not as critical as during the actual conflict itself, so lets hope RSAF gets its ass kicked at every exercise with foreign forces and learns to address the weaknesses.
And I also have another question, one versus one, the F16 may lose to the Sukhoi. Two F16s against one Sukhoi, I don't think the results could be the same. So in India, what were the rules of engagement? How many Sukhois versus how many F16s for each set up?? Did they use their war seasoned pilots against our inexperienced no war experience less than 500 hours 'young birds'?? We will never ever know.
Nah.... there are still too many unanswered questions to really believe the IAF report. Relax lah brudders. -
Here some " offical " comments on Sindex-04
Singapore and India take part in joint air exercise
October 28, 2004
Hello and welcome to Connections. IÂ’m Yvonne Gomez.
The Republic of Singapore Air Force, or RSAF, flew its F-16 fighter jets into the Indian Air Force, or IAF station at Gwalior in northern India this month.
This joint air exercise, codenamed Sindex-04, was a first between Singapore and India, and saw interaction between the RSAF and IAF at an operational level.
A Defence Policy Dialogue has also been set up to enhance bilateral defence cooperation and to discuss regional security issues.
For more, I spoke to Dr Andrew Tan, who is Assistant Professor at the Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies in Singapore.
He first gave me a background of defence cooperation between Singapore and India.
AT: I think historically, SingaporeÂ’s defence relations have chiefly been with the United States, Australia, and also with the Five-Power Defence Arrangement. Defence relations with India have not been substantial, which is why we are only now seeing the first joint air exercise. Nonetheless, there have been naval exercises previously, and relations between India and the various Southeast Asian countries have been improving and developing quite rapidly in the last couple of years. In fact, ASEAN has a dialogue partnership with India, for example.
Mr Prashant Dikshit is Deputy Director of the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies in India, and a retired Air Commodore in the Flying Branch of the Indian Air Force.
He told me that one of the primary objectives of the development process of nation-states is to establish military-to-military contact. This, he said, promoted better understanding between countries.
PD: Part of this exercise between the Singapore and Indian air forces came about with this objective. Also, the Singapore air force, has for some time, been wanting to operate with the Indian Air Force. I also recall, years ago, they had wanted to use the armament target systems in India, so that theyÂ’re able to learn their own weapons systems application exercises in India. Now this particular relationship and mutual exercise came about primarily, because both India and Singapore are key players in the Indian Ocean, and the larger relationship developing between India and the U.S., so the Singapore air force had to play an important role.
The Singapore Air Force uses American F-16 C/D jets, and the Indian Air Force several Russian jets, including the Sukhoi-30. What are some differences between the American- and Russian-made jets? Dr Tan explains.
AT: There’s no such thing as a better fighter aircraft at that level. I think the difference lies in the quality of pilot training, and perhaps the kind of avionics that have been installed in all these aircraft. The Su-30 is a very good aircraft – top of the line Russian – and the other aircraft that they operate is the MiG-29, which is a very good fighter bomber. So they are very good aircraft. But the F-16 will continue to be in operation for number of years yet, until the Americans are able to bring the joint-strike fighter into production.
Air Commodore Dikshit also shared his views on the Russian- and American-made jets.
PD: Amongst the type of aircraft which you have just elucidated, the F-16 essentially compares with the MiG-29 and the Mirage 2000. The F-16 is definitely an aircraft of some stature in the American machine, but certainly not one of the finest ones with the American flag. The F-16 has standard modern avionics on board, and similarly, so does the Mirage 2000, the MiG-29, and definitely the Su-30 MKI. The comparisons between them essentially grow out of the manoeuvrability of these aircraft in a tight airspace. On the other hand, if youÂ’re thinking of operating the systems in a larger well-spread space-based controls systems. Then the efficacy of these systems will depend beyond the visual horizon weapons systems.
Both Dr Tan and Air Commodore Dikshit both mention “avionics”. Just what does this mean, and how does it affect the quality of an aircraft? Dr Tan elaborates on this.
AT: They are electronic equipment that is placed into the aircraft, or integrated into the aircraft, and they enable the aircraft to track and scan the environment, and also to deliver munitions accurately. They also enable the aircraft to detect other aircraft, for example. To a large degree, the quality of the electronics, as well as the quality of pilot training, determine the ability of one aircraft to prevail against another in a dogfight. But of course, the quality of the aircraft in terms of engineering has got to be there, and I think the Su-30, MiG-29 and F-16 C/D are all within more or less, the same category.
Interestingly, the air force of Pakistan, IndiaÂ’s closest neighbour is also equipped with F-16 jets. How does this joint exercise with Singapore increase the familiarity of IndiaÂ’s air force with F-16 aircraft?
PD: As any other modern air force, it takes into cognizance of an F-16 variant of aircraft in the Pakistani air forceÂ’s inventory. But on the other hand, Pakistan has had some difficulty obtaining F-16s from the Americans due to difficulties in their relationship, probably brought about by the impositions of the American Senate or Congress. They have not been able to get the newer-produced aircraft from the USA, and also the supply line has diminished. So comparisons between the Indian Air Force and the Pakistan Air Force would not be appropriate because the Indian Air Force has developed itself for India as a larger power straddling the Indian Ocean, and with relationships with other nation-states in the region. The Indian Air Force has developed capacities for air-to-air refueling.
So what can the Singaporean air force pilots involved in the joint air exercise learn from their Indian counterparts? Dr Andrew Tan believes that armed forces the world over benefit from joint military exercises with other countries.
AT: I think itÂ’s always useful to train with other armed forces whether on land, in the sea or in the air, the reason being the experience in doing so enables the Singapore Armed Forces to develop a certain degree of experience and flexibility in operating or encountering different kinds of equipment that helps develop the professionalism of the Singapore armed forces. I think thatÂ’s important for all armed forces.
And what knowledge and experience can pilots from Singapore share with their Indian counterparts?
PD: The Indians have definitely to gain from their experiences along with the Singapore air force if they operate in the vicinity of Singapore, which they did a little while ago. The gains are of maritime operations, maritime strikes and maritime surveillance, and operating in a somewhat “tropicalised” atmosphere. On the other hand, the Singapore air force operating in India stands to gain from overland operations, in a zone where the visibility problems are of a different type, when compared to Singapore.
That was Mr Prashant Dikshit, retired Air Commodore in the Flying Branch of the Indian Air Force, and currently Deputy Director of the Institute of Peace and Conflict Studies in India.
Earlier in the programme, we also heard from Dr Andrew Tan, Assistant Professor at SingaporeÂ’s Institute of Defence and Strategic Studies.
The joint air exercise has reportedly been a success. There are now plans to hold joint army exercises, and cooperate in defence and homeland security technology between the two militaries.
India is also keen to work with Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia to increase security in the Singapore and Malacca Straits.
http://rsi.com.sg/english/connections/view/20041028123126/1/.html -
Here some offical comments on Sindex-04
No. Those are proffessional comments, not official comments. -
Are they not in the " profession " ?Originally posted by foxtrout8:No. Those are proffessional comments, not official comments.
miss typing in " " -
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You see, AD is a proffessional Military Expert, not an official from the Mindef. So his words are proffessional indeed but never official. Anyway, i dun find his words useful for me and for certain points, i disagree with him.Originally posted by sg1960:Are they not in the " profession " ?
miss typing in " " -
Ho! I'm back again. Honestly, I think the RSAF prolly wasn't going there to "win" in any competition. But to learn as much as possible, operating against disimilar aircraft types. Some of the simplest things for example, is how recognize the sillouhuette, shape of the different type of aircraft with the Mark 1 Human eyeball. Sounds easy? Try doing that while going @ 440kts.
In anycase, I'm sure our pilots learnt much from this experience. Though the results of the exercise may not mean "victory," it has prolly provided our air force personnel an insight of operations envelope for the diff types of aircraft.
Winning like hell in exercises doesn't mean a thing when u lose an actual battle.
Losing like crap in exercises may not actually reflect actual combat performance. Exercises do tend to have the odds stacked up. -
i was here.....
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i wasnt here..
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I am amused that all and sundry feel that the RSAF bested the IAF in their recent bilateral air exercises.
I am also amused by the way the capabilities of the RMAF are dismissed so contemptuously.
I am sure that the RMAF must be comparing notes, if they have not already done so of the performance of the MiG-29s and Su-30MK variants against the F-16s. Note also that the Indian and Malaysian defence establishments have long-standing cordial relationships. Enough said.
I am also sure that the Russians have briefed the Malaysians on the strengths and weaknesses of the F-16s, also that of the F-15s and the JSFs. And no one, least of all the beady-eyed types who keep a close watch on defence procurements up north - oh, yeah, we know about you guys - knows
exactly what Malaysia has acquired from the Russians in terms of technology and weapon systems.
And I believe that Boeing has conducted several in-depth briefings for the RMAF in their bid to persuade Malaysia to acquire the Super Hornet aircraft - which include exhaustive analyses of the F/A-18 variants against the F-16 variants, as well as the whys and wherefores of the JSF programme.
So, I think the RMAF, and the Malaysian defence establishment is not exactly losing any sleep over the antics of the RSAF and its frantic bids to gain international credibility by participating in any and every air defence exercise with all and sundry.
There's a lot to be said for keeping a low profile and your powder dry (Alexis de Tocquevile and Machiavelli refers). -
You sure? Malaysia and India do not have close ties than to Pakistan. F-16 and SU-30 roles are dif... SU-30 is mainly against the F-15. In fact, JSF is a threat as it is sort of stealthy.Originally posted by maxwellsmart:I am amused that all and sundry feel that the RSAF bested the IAF in their recent bilateral air exercises.
I am also amused by the way the capabilities of the RMAF are dismissed so contemptuously.
I am sure that the RMAF must be comparing notes, if they have not already done so of the performance of the MiG-29s and Su-30MK variants against the F-16s. Note also that the Indian and Malaysian defence establishments have long-standing cordial relationships. Enough said.
I am also sure that the Russians have briefed the Malaysians on the strengths and weaknesses of the F-16s, also that of the F-15s and the JSFs. And no one, least of all the beady-eyed types who keep a close watch on defence procurements up north - oh, yeah, we know about you guys - knows
exactly what Malaysia has acquired from the Russians in terms of technology and weapon systems.
And I believe that Boeing has conducted several in-depth briefings for the RMAF in their bid to persuade Malaysia to acquire the Super Hornet aircraft - which include exhaustive analyses of the F/A-18 variants against the F-16 variants, as well as the whys and wherefores of the JSF programme.
So, I think the RMAF, and the Malaysian defence establishment is not exactly losing any sleep over the antics of the RSAF and its frantic bids to gain international credibility by participating in any and every air defence exercise with all and sundry.
There's a lot to be said for keeping a low profile and your powder dry (Alexis de Tocquevile and Machiavelli refers).
Enough said, US govt has started its control of sales to certain nations. In fact, although Boeing may say much abt the F/A-18, what equipment and weapons that can be sold eventually are still under US Govt's hands and control (E.g of the inital purchase of AIM-120 for F-16)
I must remind you that there are SAF top people seeing this forums as well. Though it may be a feedback, but there are many scrects that cannot be said. Malaysia did not buy the long range R-77 eventually due to budget constraints. In fact, dun asume that Russia has advised Malaysia, you think Russia is happy to exchange palm oil for this? Dun use assume...
Joint Air Exercise IS IMPORTANT. You dun get it or what??? It is to gain experience, more than what of the highest flying hrs recorded for ASEAN nations. TUDM is lacking this, long range flying -
TUDM is actually losing sleep as RSAF has lots of cooperation exercise or exchanges with other nations. Especially with the recent at India as India has the SU-30 and MiG-29 that we are facing. From there, they start to improve and know what to demand for the JSF... JSF is a stealthy plane (Cannot be seen on the radar on long range)
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Hah - struck some sensitive nerves out there!
I don't think that the US has "embargoed" the sale of any defence equipment or technology to Malaysia. Care to prove me wrong here? At the very least, the US (whether Dubya or Kerry) would want to keep countries like Malaysia "onside".
R77s? Go look again.
The drive by some countries to acquire JSFs (with long-range cruise toys, like what the Aussies are proposing to do) will raise a lot of eyebrows in the region. Ditto for anyone hoping to acquire the F/A-22 or similar type beasts. Maybe Eurofighter Typhoons - but then, what do I know?
And for an airforce that is tasked to defend national airspace, and with no great ambitions of force projection or long-range surveillance, it is better to concentrate on just that, instead of participating in bilateral or multi-lateral air defence exercises. Its a question of priorities and national interests, after all. And the need to maintain the tough guy, Top Gun image at all costs - you never know when buddy-buddy turns into paranoia!
The RMAF is doing all that it is supposed to do. No eyebrows raised.
And there's still plenty of mileage left in those Su-30s - canards or no canards! -
I am amused that all and sundry feel that the RSAF bested the IAF in their recent bilateral air exercises.
I agree with you that we shouldnt assume so easily that RSAF bested the IAF (if anyone assumed it to be true...) and of course shouldnt underesitmate our neighbour.
I am also amused by the way the capabilities of the RMAF are dismissed so contemptuously.I am also sure that the Russians have briefed the Malaysians on the strengths and weaknesses of the F-16s, also that of the F-15s and the JSFs.
The Russians themselve are not truely aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the American aircrafts and considering that the Russians might want to sell that piece of information while the Malaysians are alittle tight, i wonder how true is that assumption.
We can also assume that the Americans and our allies had also briefed us on their traditional rivals. Moreover considering the fact that our Falcons are currently and will be in the future be engaging with russian's plane in India, i can assume that we know more about Malaysian planes than Malaysians knowing our planes.And I believe that Boeing has conducted several in-depth briefings for the RMAF in their bid to persuade Malaysia to acquire the Super Hornet aircraft - which include exhaustive analyses of the F/A-18 variants against the F-16 variants,
Considering that ur assumption is true, the HornetFs was a part of our procurement programme, we can assume that the Americans briefed us on the uses of their planes agaisnt the SU-30MKX.as well as the whys and wherefores of the JSF programme.
Prelim Customer information are not secrets. They wont leak any crucial information which will be detrimental to our security.
My ten cents brother. -
here is here....
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looks like Those malaysians dont even know what is Republic of Singapore Air force..Originally posted by tripwire:guess what i uncovered at ACIG forum......
those malaysian really got it in their ass now... muahahahahaa.......
that newsprint clearly shows a IAF SU-30MKI serial numbered SB022 next to our F-16
here is additional picture i fished out of ACIG.
clearly it would indicates that SB022 is actually a SU-30 MKI just like those SB020, 021 and 026.
looks like now we can see a deeper level to their various statements... the indians was obviously refering to their MKI when they talk about their " their top-notch mean machines"......
i wonder how well will our Falcon fair against a lower standard SU-MK series like the RMAF MKM that doesnt even comes with a canard and resembles more like a SU-30K. and outnumbered it 3 to 1 
Royal Singapore air force..wt.f..
royal as in big lee and small lee? -
Easy explanation. Malaysian government only know how to see from their point of view. They cannot see beyond their world.Originally posted by SibeiSuayKia:looks like Those malaysians dont even know what is Republic of Singapore Air force..
Royal Singapore air force..wt.f..
royal as in big lee and small lee? -
here is here..
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tripwire must be feeling antsy! Or sensitive. Or, maybe, he's one of those beady-eyed types who can't stand the fact that the kampung fellows up north are doing quite ok, thank you very much.
There are quite a few of these rabid anti-kampung types who seem to think that the RSAF will wipe the floor with anyone who dares to challenge its might and technological prowess. For "anyone", read xxxxxx!
Note that no one challenged my view that Malaysia has excellent relations with both India and Pakistan (and also with Russia, China and the US). That is fact, no matter what some people may wish to think.
Fact: the US has not placed Malaysia on any "embargo" list for the acquistion of defence technology and arms.
And if you think that the US has passed all its "secrets" to countries who buy its arms, then I've a fully discountable, transferable claim on certain Nigerian assets that you may be interested in purchasing!
Think again, people. All the "moles" in the world will not make any difference (with due respect to G K Chesterton). -
Malaysia basher spottedOriginally posted by Obersturmfuhrer:Easy explanation. Malaysian government only know how to see from their point of view. They cannot see beyond their world. -
here is here.
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Looks as though my posts have got 'tripwire' all hot and bothered. I wonder why? Maybe some subliminal need to justify himself? Or some sneaking suspicion that the rest of the world doesn't take him, or his ilk, seriously?
Can the RSAF smash the RMAF into oblivion in 1 day? Like I always say, you will never know until you try. Or, to put it crudely, sustaining an erection is always harder than getting it up!
As for "moles" - they have to do something to justify their existence and earn their keep, even though they live in subterranean surroundings. Enough said. Its a case of "you know that I know that you know!"
I rest my case on Malaysia's relations with the US, India, Pakistan, China, Russia etc. Doesn't seem to have done any harm to their defence acquistions or military-to-military co-operation agreements. -
oie we are her to discuss about rsaf vs iai. Any furthur anti malaysia comments will be deleted. Courtesy of limpeh
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Your nickname means a tank , and a tank's operating radius is about 500km..Originally posted by CenturionMBT:oie we are her to discuss about rsaf vs iai. Any furthur anti malaysia comments will be deleted. Courtesy of limpeh
considering that it is almost impossible to use a tank to plough through the Singapore Straits and get transported..
The nearest foreign entity would be within hundreds of metres away, within deployable distance, applying the forward defense concept ...
and you will realised that the above post that you made is ironic
What i like about Singaporeans
Singaporeans are smart at masking their true agenda.. -
here is here.