Unneighbourly Neighbours - No help available
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We live on the 2nd floor above one neighbour in the fine greenery of the condominium called Maplewoods. We have lived here since April 18th 2008. Since the day that we have moved in, we have been harassed by the neighbour at #01, who consistently knock on the ceiling while we are carrying out our daily living. Knocking that is vigourous and continuous which can be heard clearly in B1 carpark, throughout the entire carpark. Unfortunately, the ceilings at our building is somewhat hollow because I can hear the neighbours upstairs. But the noise is not over bearing.
At the beginning, neighbour wife send the security over to our home on a daily basis - up to 5 times a day. And I mean EVERY SINGLE DAY. During this tme, we got very upset to the point that we gave our name cards to the security office, because we wanted to call us directly instead of sending security to our home while we were at work. She would constantly come to our home and insulted our guests (children) as they came over or were leaving our home. She constantly spied at our place. We had made police reports, called the police several times. We also visite the management office, and security office very often. The management office was manged by a manager - who balantly told us that management WILL NOT get involved. Police told us they will not get involved and it is the management of the condominium's job. Finally, we wrote a letter appealing to the chariman of Maplewoods commitee but the manager wrote a letter to us to inform that as tenants we had no rights. After many pleas - the landlord had somehow managed to stop the guards coming up to our home. That took 6 months. The knocking did not stop - it continues on a daily basis and may last for hours.
All we spoken to have acknowledged that both husband and wife have been living there for the past 12 years, and have caused trouble to the neighbour who lives above them, and also to the neighbours who live next to them and other neighbours around them. A few of the many incidents include the following: Wife will complain about children playing quietly 200 m from her doorstep in mid afternoon, demanding that people do not talk at the lift landing, which is at least 75m from her door in daytime. She has complained against us making noise when there was no one home, and by unbearable noise, means accidentally dropping a remote control - when my baby was learning to crawl and hit his head on the floor - and by my now toddler running across the hall. She has also harassed the neighbours on the 4th floor for making noise. Both husband and wife would have terrible fighting marathrons which lasted several hours and sometimes through the night, only to begin at 7am in the morning. Our neighbour next door would knock on our door and ask whether we should call the police - and also told us it has been happening since they have moved in. Obviously, this couple have huge issues, but it is not my concern - I am not judging them.
Things escalated last year in December when my two year old son ran across the corridor and the knocking ensued once again at 8am in the morning. During that time, we had been so angered that after 3 hours of knocking - we poured water at their door. Both husband and wife came out (finally), and screamed for us to go downstairs - calling us names and provoking us. My husband went down and husband - neighbour was armed with his camera and tauting him to approach. When my husband approached, he kicked my husband. My husband reacted in defense and backed off after 2 minutes and came back upstairs. As all parties were heated, there was name-calling and screaming at both sides. We regret that we had finally let them get to us, and had spoilt our entire weekend. When the police later arrived - he informed us that it is not a criminal case, and we told them upfront that we will not be pursuing the case. They told us they would follow up and get back to us - again, no follow-up and no calls.A month later, we received a letter saying that the neighbours made a magsitrate's compliant against my husband saying that my husband had attacked them and conintually punched the wife. This is entirely untrue, as my husband NEVER laid on the wife. After we received the letter from the surbodinate court, we went to the police station and tried to speak to the officer in charge and was again plainly told that he could not help nor advise. Again, it is some other department's matter- a magistrate's matter. Then we went to the surbodinate court and wrote down a 4 page letter explaining he aggravation throughout our time at our rented home and the fact that we did regret the day that we had a face to face confrontation. We also provided emails from agents and landlords, police reports, and letters from the managament.
Yesterday was the mediation session, and during the hearing in front of the magistrate, my husband wanted to offer a quick apology and head off and leave this unpleasant incident behind. However, both husband and wife were constantly shouting and threw ridiculous accusations at my husband - demanding that they wanted $10K compensation, and that we never made noise again. They claimed that we had parties every night until 5am, to which my husband calmly denied. The magistrate had to remind the couple a few times not to interrupt and to not speak to my husband directly. At the end, he asked my husband whether he was willing to offer an apology. My husband was willing to apologize nonetheless because he wanted this whole incident to be forgotten. The magistrate also told my husband that he was liable for the maximum jail time of 1 year and/or $3000 fine. I was waiting for my husband in the car and when he finally joined me, he was shaken. I went into the surbodinate court reception and clarified what happened. The lady at the reception was very kind and went to the magistrate and clarified before returning to me and now said that they have turned and wanted my particulars for mediation. My question is - just because we are not the complianants does not mean we are not the victims. The magistrate only asked my husband to apologize and whether my husband was willing to compensate them $10K. He did not ask the husband who had kicked my husband - a fact presented to the magistrate beforehand whether HE wanted to apologize. Both husband and wife claimed that they were traumatized - by their yelling and threatening - does the magistrate not recognize that traumatized people do not act this way??? Does the magistrate not recognise that this couple are the nuisance??? We do not want any apology and just want to live out our lease in peace. When I say in peace, I mean to not go back to the surbodinate court and be subjected to accusations and lies and being judged by the magistrate (because we are the respondents that we are criminals). And oh yes, they are still knocking. I come home and walk through the corridor with my heels and they start knocking. #3 floor drags furniture while we are all sitted on the sofa, they knock. We have suffered enough and want to start our home and life anew when we move out. I am wondering where is the justice!!!
I am personally appalled at the lack of help from all parties. Everyone whom I seek help or advice from - police, management, my agent, landlord, and even 3 lawyers - agree and even sympatize with our situation. Bottom line is we were informed that nothing could be done. PURE INDIFFERENCE. The management has constantly pushed off the responsibility and we were basically told that we had no rights because we were merely tenants. After speaking to various people, I feel that it is simply not right that such un-neighbourly behavior can be tolerated - and even condoned by others in evidence of their unwillingness to help or their fear of involvement, and basically being told that we have no choice but to endure. We were even told that we can equally make complaints against our neighbour and they will give us the same treatment. As such, I believe that it is unfair and bringing across the wrong message. Does that mean that only those who make the loudest noise and scream and threaten get the most attention, whist the ones who are truly victims like ourselves and do not want to trouble others much, get discredited?
My point is this - obivously the neighbours at #1 who has been this "un-neighbourly" are unlikely to change - but shouldn't the law or whoever is in charge do something about this? By in-action, it is condoning that their actions are right. We are in the process of writing to the MP to request the Maplewoods management manage this situation better. It is not for us anymore - it is in the name of right and wrong.
Everything that I have said is the absolute truth - and may be substantiated. -
I sympathise with you.
but you see, this is very much an us-versus-them situation.
It could easily have been the other party typing a similar story right here too.
my advise, gather the evidence, rally your supporters, like the other neighbours, who would collaborate your side of the story, and then call in your lawyers.
How long is your tenancy agreement with your landlord ?
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find the previous owners, and ask them whether this neighbours gave the same problems..
and also start collecting evidence.
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Move house!
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The previous owners sold the place because a similar incident happened between them and the neighbours - ended in court as well. Then they sold the place to an investor who leased it to us. The landlord is sympathetic but didn't agree that the lease be pre-terminated. All the people staying at our unit had similar experiences - according to othr neighbours who have lived here long enough. We have 2 months to go - and thats not the point. The point is that justice is non existent. We provided letters from other neighbours (those around us), and have evidence and witnesses and the police had spoken to the management and gathered the neighbours' track record - but still... no justice.
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so it has been proven that this neighbours gives problem to whoever is staying at that unit... and nothing can be done or nobody wants to do anything..im quite sure our police can do more then just saying sorry we cant help.
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Originally posted by Micheleow:
The previous owners sold the place because a similar incident happened between them and the neighbours - ended in court as well. Then they sold the place to an investor who leased it to us. The landlord is sympathetic but didn't agree that the lease be pre-terminated. All the people staying at our unit had similar experiences - according to othr neighbours who have lived here long enough. We have 2 months to go - and thats not the point. The point is that justice is non existent. We provided letters from other neighbours (those around us), and have evidence and witnesses and the police had spoken to the management and gathered the neighbours' track record - but still... no justice.
justice does not exist unless you can prove your case.
the worst thing you guys did, other than having your husband drawn into a physical confrontation, was to offer an apology to "move on and avoid further trouble" .... that's what bullies everywhere feed on, from the kindergarten playground up .... it's a sign of capitulation to them .... and there's really no stopping them now.
someone got to stop them .... if you just batten down your hatches and bear it for the next two months the next hapless family that moves in would be subjected to the same thing too. unfortunately, it had to be you guys.
you should have taken out a magistrate order of your own, and rallied your troops, gather the evidence, you're not the only neighbour suffering, plenty of people would have been behind your case.
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yep, i agree with fatum, you can even ask the other neighbours or ex owners to come down and give their statements if they're willing.
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Hey stellazio, you know something strange? The police have all the police reports from the previous neighbours - and yet they said it is management issue not their issue. I asked the police to provide these reports to the magistrate but they said that unless the magistrate asks for it, they will not provide.
I asked the surbordinate court pointblank whether to make a complaint? So that I can have the "luxury" of hearing the magistrate asking the neighbours whether they wanted to apologize. They assured me no need, the magistrate is fair. I had provided to them at least 15 documents - ranging from police reports, security guards reports, and agent and management letters, and it all wasn;t taken into account - all because I was not the complainant.
Honestly, is that fair?
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Originally posted by Micheleow:
Hey stellazio, you know something strange? The police have all the police reports from the previous neighbours - and yet they said it is management issue not their issue. I asked the police to provide these reports to the magistrate but they said that unless the magistrate asks for it, they will not provide.
I asked the surbordinate court pointblank whether to make a complaint? So that I can have the "luxury" of hearing the magistrate asking the neighbours whether they wanted to apologize. They assured me no need, the magistrate is fair. I had provided to them at least 15 documents - ranging from police reports, security guards reports, and agent and management letters, and it all wasn;t taken into account - all because I was not the complainant.
Honestly, is that fair?
that's why you should have taken out a magistrate complaint then ...... cos you guys wanted to avoid blowing up the incidents and avoid further trouble, it's become a case of “æ�¶äººå…ˆå�¿çŠ¶”. And I tell you, this couple became such pricks precisely because no one really stood up to them through-out their miserable lives.
you should have taken out a counter complaint when you received the summons too. A civil suit may be your last recourse now ...
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Originally posted by stellazio:
yep, i agree with fatum, you can even ask the other neighbours or ex owners to come down and give their statements if they're willing.
Yea micheIeow, i agree with stellazio.. Even if the neighbours aren't willing to give their statement, at least ask for a copy of their police report.
Based on this, you can argue on the point that, it is impossible that every single ex-tenants are such noisemakers like your #1 neighbour complains. It's either your #1 neighbours are so suay to hit this kind of probability, or your #1 neighbours are just simply being unreasonable.
Worst come to worst, ask the court to question the sanity of your #1 neighbour. Maybe can ask the judge to make them undergo psychological evaluations?
My heart goes out to you.
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Micheleow,
I believe you must be a foreigner. Unfamiliar with living in a multi-level dwelling and unfamiliar with the laws.
Sounds transfer between floors is an obvious sign that the building quality is SUB-standard.
Break off the lease with your landlord, or insist he/she pays for an underlayment to reduce noise transfers from your downstair neighbour and footfall impacts by your family.
If your landlord refused, then you will have to speak to your lawyer about breaking the lease. I am sure your landlord will rather cut his losses by releasing you than to have to go through the hassle of being sued by his own tenant.
Why did you choose to go through the mediation route ? You could have sent a lawyer to settle this dispute.
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There is a limit to tolerance. Then you must fight for your rights. He kicked you, and you want to apologize! Your reasoning if flawed. An ah beng friend of mine once told me to never apologise to an angry person (especially a Chinese), it would mean you were wrong and would invite more scorn. At most say you were mistaken.
Look at it this way, your #01 neighbour fought for their unreasonable requirements. Look back again, they fought for it. They are willing to fight dirty. You have to fight back too. You lost the initiative of gathering all the evidence and going to the magistrates first.
Fight, fight for your family, or get kicked all over.
You put the police, the management, the council in front of you to fight them, and then complain when they won't fight your battle. You should be up front fighting, and they will all back you up.
Why do you think Singapore has an army? When push come to shove, be prepared to fight, or disappear.
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same thing happened to me since 2004.they knocked from 6am to midnight.even on chinese new year it sounded even louder as if they were having a tausar bun factory upstairs....then i went up to take a look.found there were money signs painted all over the outside of the walls....aka loan sharks...so i knocked on their door and that chinese guy asked me why i was thwere and his other family members asked me if i was liveing anywehere in the block of flats.when i asked what the banging was they said it was renovation works.i then threatened to get the police but that dat didnt scare the guy and when i told them HDB would come in, they were frightened.
that didnt seem to have any effect on them so the best way would be to kill them,
but they did end up silent after i turned on my movie very loud until the walls shook.u must fight fire wiv fire!best movie with lots of banging and clanking would be "terminator salvation" with huge speakers as near to your ceiling as possible.....find the time when its quiet which means he is asleep or resting and BLAST IT ACROSS AND OUT OFF HIS FLOOR.best is the woofers and sub woofers very near to the ceiling as those are the ones that will have sound go thru concrete and steel.sit back and enjoy the movie.
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but then i immigrated not long later as i myself have a factory at my place .difference is that there isnt any noise from my place as compared to his factory upstairs.
but then it could mean that they are just trying to extort money from u if they keep on knocking with u around.
sounds that could be heard includes heavy duty hammering,pounding with noise which seems to be in your room instead of theirs,some wooden tool and nuts being dropped on floor,a huge standard house cooking gas tank being dropped once a while on floor and yelling in hokkien.
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the occupants above me:man about 1.6metres,slightly fat and 45 years old with a frown on his face.wife same age with spectacles.mother who looks 80 years old.
plenty of religious items seen outside his door.
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however i do notice the similarities of maplewood and mine!!!
his plaxce was on lower floors which is rather the same as mine.which means he could be making harwarer like doors,windows and big elongated stuff and carting it down the stairs manually as the lifts would be too small.he also needs to bring up materiials if its too big for lifts so the lower floors would be the best for people such as these.
he needs to survive at your expense from looks of it.best way is to go see your MP and.that will be enough reasons to evict the entire family.
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DO NOT LEAVE ANYONE ALIVE!!!NO ONE MUST SURVIVE!!NO ONE MUST SURVIVE UPSTAIRS!!!BEST U GET YER MP!:)
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well i can only say say leave it to providence now. Hope when they cross the road, both kena bang until jialat jialat, and then they die. muahahahahaha. The both of them obviously require psychiatric help.
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the joo chiat saga gave you all the answers you seek.
there is nothing that the courts can do. it must be true.
bear with it for another 2 mths and move out.
no point going any further and cause yourself more distress.
气了也是白气.
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Michelle,
Its really hard to say because I am hearing all the story from your side. If I ask the neighbour, I bet they give another side to their story. I am kind of surprised that your husband just want to get it over with an apology. Since your neighbour accused him of punching them, he must have been mad at being wrongly accused. So, did he punched the neighbour? If that is true, that is really bad. Its a charge assault. I mean, no matter how wrong and crazy the neighbour is, never ever physically attack them, that is a criminal assault. But if it never had happened, then its akin to defamation, how could your husband take it? Being accused of something he didn't do and he had to pay a SGD10 fine.
Let it go and let the thing past. I think it is best you move out. You're lucky you don't own the home, so you can rent elsewhere. On the other hand, if I were you, I would appeal the case and I don't want to pay the fine unless of course, I really assaulted the dude. Throwing water at the door is small matter but fisting someone is very serious.
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wa lau, i see u and ur hubby hor, sibei poor thing leh
go and report police no case, go to court no use, go to the management also cannot do anything. go and bang the wall better lah, knn. still wanna go find MP.
hello, i think the way u use the handle this matter hor, wrong already lah
how can u go pour water at your neighbour door one leh, nabei, even u wanna pour water hor also dont get caught ma.
better go figure a way to end this drama and by not offending ur neighbour lah
there sure got a way to make them be good good and wont disturn u anymore one. go figure lah, use a bit of wisdom.
where there is a will there is a way ma.
haiz
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Dragg,
When I first seeked lawyers' advice -I wasn't seeking advice to sue them - I was seeking how to break the lease- he told me all about the Joo Chiat saga and that basically we cannot technically break our lease. We could only appeal to the good nature of the landlord. Which didn't work. 3 lawyers told me that same thing.
Durian_bananas,
I can assure you that my hubby didn't attack them. But we have been so worn down by their harassment that we were advised (by the magistrate's office) that if we are unwilling to offer an apology - the process would be prolonged. My hubby was very clear to the magistrate that he is apologizing because he wanted to move on with his life, and leave this awful incident behind. He specifically apologized for going downstairs BUT never apologized for assauting the neighbour nor admitted to it. When the complainants asked for $10K compensation, my husband plainly said no.
I am not on the forum to recite what happened on that day.
I am talking about the justice in this matter. Obviously the complainants are a little nuts, but the police, management, magistrate are condoning their behavior, by tolerating it!
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wa lau botahead. sorry, no offense bro. But its attitude like yours is exactly what I am complaining about.
So you probably think that if someone is a bully, better not offend them? The more someone bullies, the more you tolerate.
Exactly what those authorities are doing. Don't get involved, don't get into trouble with the couple because they are so unreasonable. Don't create scene, ect...
They quietly sympatheize with us, but just tell us to ta han.
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Hey Hitman!
Thank you for sharing your experience. Some friends told us to buy marbles and say its the worst to drop them on the floor, but we didn't. Because they are relentless in punishing us in return. A few times, after their knocking spree, we would throw a golf ball across the hall - just once, then we will time how long they knock, then when they stop, we will throw it one more time, and time them again. But, they are tired-less. It can go on for hours! Actually, hats off to them for the persistence. I am utterly amazed at their persistence - can seriously knock for hours and hours! (I am really not kidding) We can even tell the difference between the husband and the wife knocking as one is softer but faster, and the other booms and is more forceful. Many times, I wonder whether they have holes in their ceiling. We considered that it may be them knocking on the wall structure, but the knocking is so loud that we can feel it vibrating under our feet. I mean, you can hear it at B1 throughout the carpark. I mean- when you hear the booming sound, the provokation is so great, I really mean that our feeling is "not again". When we are slightly better, we will just look at each other and say - luckily we are renting. When we are angered - so much like in Dec S&*% happened.
BTW, when they are upset with their current next door neighbour, they will knock on their wall too.
And BTW, they are both around 45 years old and have heaps of religous items at their door, and always saying that they are good christians and God will side them. OMG, I really detest people like that. Don't use God's name in vain.