Project Teammate who's a jerk.
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Hi.
I've this problem of some kind of "free-rider" in team projects. I've always been with this group of 4 friends. Knew each other for many years now and we're studying together in the same school and in the same course, so we always form a group to work on group projects.
But, after a few projects, I've found that one of them has a tendency. He's not a lazy person like in many other typically cases where he tries to skive. But still, he keeps pushing work to the other members.
Also, he's a perfectionist. He's always doing the "quality control" for our projects. So it becomes the case that the 3 of us will be the slaves working feverishly behind the scene, outputing the real product while he'll be taking our final output, giving comments and reviews and making us go back and redo if he finds faults with them. Even the consolidation of the parts is done by the three of us, not him. So we're doing the real work and he's just the judge and pseudo-manager overseeing the project, and setting deadlines for us. He's just good at telling us what he wants like some upper management people and not a teammate who works with us.
It is apparent in his emails, where he assign everyone something to
do, but never assign himself anything. His email for project will usually reads something like, "A, you do this. I think you're the best man for this task. B, I think you can help with this. C, I think you're talented in this, I guess can settle this section. Then maybe he'll add in a line, I'll be working with A or B or C on this task and usually the primary person who is assigned the task would have done it. And he'll still play the pseudo-manager role again when A, B or C whom he's supposed to work with submits their work for his "review."
The only thing he usually volunteers to do is: "OK, I'll do the final printing, binding and submission..." Heck, it's the easiest job out of the whole project process, isn't it? Open up the file, click Print and bring to binding shop says, "Auntie, please bind this for me, thanks."
It's worse when it comes to programming, which he self-proclaims "I'm bad at it, so since you guys are more proficient at it, you guys should do more and take on the more challenging aspect of the projects." Then he'll just continue to act like some upper management jerk who thinks of some features and keep piling on the workload and saying, "these additional features can help us score better grades!" Damned, of course easy for him to say all these craps since he's not the one writing the real code and doing th programming. Once,we had another project. The other 2 team members were not involved and I was working with this jerk and another girl (a 3 persons project). The jerk said, "I'm not good at this and I think you two can do the project faster and better. I can concentrate more on another project we're doing." So the girl and I worked our guts out and it actually became a three persons project done by 2 persons. And for the other project which he volunteered, he continued to stick to the area he feels he is more comfortable and he ended up writing up parts of the documentation and report, without writing a single line of programming code. So when i questioned him, "But next time you go out to work and cannot even write a simple program, how?" He would reply, "I don't intend to work in the IT industry in future and I'm just in an IT course now to get a 'paper' (certificate)."
Sure, I understand that in group/project work, it's never possible to ensure that the share of work is equal -- some people will do slightly more and some slightly less depending on circumstances and the skills needed.
But what I feel is that we now have a guy who's damned selfish, only thinking of himself. He's not a lazy person but one is taking advantage of our goodwills to further his own goals and using us as some stepping stones. Sure, we always have exams, tests and assignment deadlines to meet ourselves, but I feel he's pushing the group work to us and he's milking us for more time to study for better grades on his own.
And I feel the other team mates and I are having to bear the brunts pf all these craps. Sure, because of his over-demanding style, the team mates are always worked to the maximum, always staying back late. And he keeps emphasizing, "Do we have a choice?" I wish I could tell him straight, "Yeah we do have a choice. We can choose to have a poorer grade and go home and sleep right now."
But working with him, our team have managed to secure a string of A+ for projects, but all due to the hard work and efforts from the three of us. I do not know if we should credit the jerk with his management expertise or psychological motivation. Working with him is hellish, since he'll more likely push you to do more work than help you with existing work.
I also hope I can confront him and tell him straight off the partnership is off. But when it comes to the friendship we've over the years, I usually put it off.
Anyone suffers from this kind of jerk teammate before? Any comments on how to deal with him? -
haha
almost all the groups i work with (except the last 1 that i had for 1 year during my last yr poly)..got free rider
very gek sim 1..anyway..i told myself..
do more things..i am the 1 who benefit in the end..
maybe he or she may get the same grade but just take it as charitable work loh -
true...true...cos if they dun have any hands on experience when they r supposed to be studying n learnng...they will suffer when they graduate....cos in e outside world...pple dun take such nonsense...the boss will most probably fire him real quick...Originally posted by BufPuf:haha
almost all the groups i work with (except the last 1 that i had for 1 year during my last yr poly)..got free rider
very gek sim 1..anyway..i told myself..
do more things..i am the 1 who benefit in the end..
maybe he or she may get the same grade but just take it as charitable work loh -
yah lor...projects u for u all to learn things, solve problems etc...at least u n ur frens will learn much more than ur tat teammate....juz think it tat u all benefit more than him does.
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ya loh
i understand hwo it feels coz i was soooo pissed tht time when 1 of my group mate..rather go out and stuff..den to come for project..and after the whole thing (which we score the best for tht proj)..he was saying things like...actuali i dun wan to study anymore and etc..
arrgghh..
anyway he is the 1 who will suffer in the end..if u not happi..go to your lecturer and tell him abt it loh.. -
I learnt so many times already. When it comes to project work, you have to be selfish and do it yourself if you want to get things done. Don't bother trusting the others. If you can get everything done by yourself, 95% of the war is won. End of it, you know everything, anything. They'll be eating your dust.
Your project mates might be your best friends, you might be tempted to take their word for it. But if you do, remember to leave a buffer for things to go wrong. -
Well said guys. I am always in this situation as well....somewhat caught in the middle. They may be ur gd frens in class.....but becos u r those "on" type of students....pple take advantage of u. They will tink tt...."since my tt group member so "on" he will do everything perfectly by himself.....i no need to do oso can 1 lar..... "
No doubt this attitude stinks to the core, u haf to constantly remind urself tt u r the one whu will benefic the most at the end of the day. Try not to think of those free riders as tt will onli make u feel angry. Do continue doing well in projects and u will see the fruits. Maybe thinking of graduation helps.....
ALso do NOT let this sour ur friendships.....mayb treating it as helping ur friends helps as well..take care my fren
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not to burst your bubble or anything ..... but, i've got this distinct feeling that he won't suffer as much as you think he will, in the real world. in fact, he may do pretty well, if he plays his cards right and has a bit of luck by being in the right place, at the right time
pls read further before flaming me
what do you think managers/consultants do? programming? yeah rite ... (not in all cases, but mainly MNCs - afterall, most ppl would aim to work in a MNC. speaking of majority) yes, of coz, you would think that you need to know the ropes and all before moving up, but in IT? by the time you learn everything you think you need, it'll be obsolete
sounds like a idiotic teammate to have, but would make a hell of a team lead, consultant or project manager
lots of ppl can do the ground work, but how many can effectively manage ppl and sniff out mistakes. an even bigger plus point is how to achieve the "edge" that makes a project stand out? eg: many can design a website, but how can you make it stand out above the rest?
this is an impt point - with the number of foreign talents coming into singapore (read: relatively cheaper to hire, speaking of majority, though this is not true in my company), how are the locals going to stand out? you wanna fight with them for a piece of the ground work? (programming and such ...) it's gonna be tough ... you need the edge that makes you shine more than them. with the current outflow of expat managers from singapore (judging from the low demand for expat condos), it's the chance for the locals to move in and take up the role
there's more to this person's working characteristics that meets the eye. an effective manager doesn't need to do the work, he/she just needs to know how it's done (from a high-level point of view) and then effectively pin-point the best person to get the job done
my advice is to observe how he achieves this, cause it may very well help you at work in the future
this is just my opinion after working and observing managers in MNCs for more than 3 yrs now. there are certain characteristics that make an effective manager, and few can achieve this
sure, it's great to have a manager that can actually get his hands dirty and do the ground work (one of my ex-managers was like this). but, why?? he should be more concerned with the big picture, how the team contributes to the company, how to effectively manage the team and make them grow at the same time, etc etc ...
taking the example of my ex-manager, he's been with the company for more 20 yrs now .... sure, he's well-known (world-wide level), but why is he still only an average manager, in terms of hierachy? cause he's so good with the ground work that NO ONE can replace him. his bosses would be having this in their minds, why move him up when he's so good down there? (bluntly speaking) he's soooooo good with the ground work that if he's moved upwards, he'll lose the edge that made him shine, which is being able to do the ground work. from how i see it, he's gonna retire as a "manager-of-teams " , and not a "manager-of-managers".
disclaimer : my comments do not apply to those who like to remain in the technical area. not everyone endeavors to become a manager, and this is something we need to respect. i hate it when ppl comment abt someone who was singled out for a promotion to management level and then he/she declines it. the most common comment is ,"why doesn't he take the challenge?!"
my response is this - what challenge??! if the person does not like managing, the "promotion" is not a challenge, but a problem to the person. i put "promotion" in inverted commas, cause to this person, it would not be a promotion at all
so, question is this - is your aim to be an engineer or a manager? also, programming is not the ONLY thing in IT. that was my thinking when i was still in school, but you'll be surprised ...
note : updated with missing words
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damn, i forgot to add the "moral" of my long post
my advice is to see this from another point of view. learn from him, in regards to the "management" part. cause, these characteristics are useful. combine this with whatever knowledge you are getting now, and you'll be better off than him
you'll have the best of both worlds -
jerks are common.
you drive a car very fast and suddenly pull the brake, you'll jerk. if you don't you skid.
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so many ppl are getting into FireIce's habit of interpreting the "other" meaning of questionsOriginally posted by Nelstar:jerks are common.
you drive a car very fast and suddenly pull the brake, you'll jerk. if you don't you skid. -
The feeling damn sucks man when u noe that there r such pple in yr group.
Makes u feel like adopting a bo chup approach to the project and dumping everything to the bloody jerk. -
sympathise with u, know of someone worst than this, he doesn't turn up for meeting, never even call, then when he turns up, talk nonsense, nothing to do with subject matter, very disrupting. In fact the group hates his guts!
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Had this kind of teammate before..what I can tell you is...Originally posted by m.c.king:I also hope I can confront him and tell him straight off the partnership is off. But when it comes to the friendship we've over the years, I usually put it off.
Partnership is partnership.
Friendship is friendship.
If you yourself cannot get this straight...U continue to suffer.
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i'm just making this thread more open to the concept of humour.Originally posted by eutjin:so many ppl are getting into FireIce's habit of interpreting the "other" meaning of questions
anyways it's a situation where one breaks an egg with a stone. either you crack it or you don't. There's no other way. -
Yes, I do agree with you on the role of manager and engineer -- engineers do the real work and managers plan and sychronize the project.Originally posted by eutjin:...what do you think managers/consultants do? programming? yeah rite ... (not in all cases, but mainly MNCs - afterall, most ppl would aim to work in a MNC. speaking of majority) yes, of coz, you would think that you need to know the ropes and all before moving up, but in IT? by the time you learn everything you think you need, it'll be obsolete...
...sounds like a idiotic teammate to have, but would make a hell of a team lead, consultant or project manager...
...sure, it's great to have a manager that can actually get his hands dirty and do the ground work (one of my ex-managers was like this). but, why?? he should be more concerned with the big picture, how the team contributes to the company, how to effectively manage the team and make them grow at the same time, etc etc ...
Problem is: he is self-appointed. Nobody in the team voted him to be our manager -- what we want is a co-worker. The problem I've with him is that nobody requested to have a manager for our project. He doesn't know more anything than I do since we're studying the same thing, and he too has no industry experience. So basically what he's doing now is causing me to lose my respect for him. The idea I've of him now: he's a person who can't walk his talk; all noise and no action, and doesn't know a damn about doing real work but talks a lot. Hey, then everybody would have taken the easy way out, "Let me be your manager so that you do the work while I do the talking."
The simple rationale is: managers must know their stuffs. In a way, managers are leaders of techies and engineers. How do we expect the lower-ranked techies and engineers to respect those managers if they have no idea what they're talking about or what they want? When we have managers who don't know anything, then seriously they appear like clueless idiots giving misleading instructions.
On his management skill, well, it appears that he has failed miserably and thorughly. I'm one very dissatisfied "subordinate" working under him. If this is a company and a working environment, I would have quitted it long time ago with this kind of people managing me. Problem is that I don't feel I'm growing, I feel unfair that 3 good persons are working for a self-declared manager who knows nuts about the project that he is supposed to be personally involved in doing, not supervising.
Just my viewpoint. Of course in the industry, managers supervise and workers do the real work. But managers are usually those who have been longer in the companies or those who knows more or comes with more industry experience in project management, so due respect is given to them. But heck this is a school project and all 4 of us are equally clueless and inexperienced, so who's qualified to lead or manage who? -
Well...
its worst when you r the only doing all the work -
hmmm. i think you'lll be rather happy in our project team, here, although i bungled up the project, mainly, for last semester, but we managed to push it to passing grade and i got a c for it - although our application cannot even run. we got our sorta free-rider, but its not all his fault because we had to rush and we have no time for him, in fact, i had to rush a portion of the project myself to push things faster else, we would have failed. at the end, i ran around like a madman, instructing this and that, trying to salvage what we had, remodify and package it so we can demo that we know our things even if all else failed. that worked, they read through our code and all, and could see our hard work in it even though we could not even show an ounce of run time.
i think managers have to be good in all things, although may not be the one doing the dirty jobs but he must understand how things are run, as detailed as possible. thats my belief in management, though i am far from bring suitable. i was very stubborn in pushing our original plan and idea to completion even though we had several chances of dropping it for an easier route out.
all these is just to say that, no matter the experience is good or bad, it is how much we learn from it, all of my teammates can agree on one thing, we did learn alot from it. hellva lots experience points, more than others. for me, more than anyone could imagine.
for your case, if i were you, i'll simply impeach the person with the help of other teammates, but most likely simply threaten to, and we re-distribute our work. for me, that is almost impossible because i knew everything, kicking me out would cause chaos, simple as that. -
Question : Are you gonna do anything about this problem like telling the lecturer, telling him off?
If ya not, I dun see any point in complaining.
If you wanna complain do something about it, if you're not then don't complain. -
Ya... Was once in a 3 people project where I've got 2 free riders... The experience really SUCKS man... I was doing all the experiments, background research, IT and presentation stuffs... Single-handly...Originally posted by Forever84:Well...
its worst when you r the only doing all the work
I was missing tuitions and late for lectures... One of the more 'sucky' free-rider was even commenting on my 'behaviors' in front of other students.. Always LATE and not punctual for lessons.. etc. Damn... If only they would do their jobs...
Anyway, 1 week before the presentation and submission I just couldn't take it anymore... I called for a team break up... It caused me my 'team-work points'... As the other 2 have no problems with each other, the lecturer thought of me as the problematic ones... But of course, the other students known what was happening... One of them was begging for me to give them the experiment information and disk... Upon much persuading (as I still considered him as a friend), I gave him the informations but they were not IT updated... Meaning only raw datas... The other jerk went to lodge a complaint to the lecturer on me, insisting that that's not the updated version... At that point I was kinda disappointed that I even gave them the raw data... Anyway, I insisted that I had not done the 'updating' and whatever information they'll need are in there... I also told the lecturer that if they were doing ANY of the project parts at all, there's no way that they would have no information on this project at all... Not to mention not having the slightest idea about the progression of the project... Only then did it brought some 'senses' into the lecturer.. She later managed to find out the truth from the other students..
As hellish as it was for me, it was for them... 1 week before the presentation, they were struggling and at TOTAL LOSS... By end of the week, the friend whom I still regarded as a friend came begging to me again... I was at much hesitation... After all that the other jerk was doing? Anyway, I still gave him the updated disk later... Yes.. He was grateful... And he should be... After all that they've done... Without it, they can be prepared to stay back for another module liao... -
Work and friendship apart... 1st thing I'm gonna say, what people usually like to say... "If he's a friend, he shouldn't be treating you that way..."Originally posted by m.c.king:Hi.
I've this problem of some kind of "free-rider" in team projects. I've always been with this group of 4 friends. Knew each other for many years now and we're studying together in the same school and in the same course, so we always form a group to work on group projects.
I also hope I can confront him and tell him straight off the partnership is off. But when it comes to the friendship we've over the years, I usually put it off.
Anyone suffers from this kind of jerk teammate before? Any comments on how to deal with him?
Perhaps he's just 'lost' in his own world. Tell him off a little, set things right... Put him back in his own position... From there on, you'll probably get a clearer picture of what is going on....
Remedy for free-riders:
1. Sit down in a team and set job scope for everyone.
2. Do a periodic update with the individuals to make sure that work is done.
3. Mutual exchange. Do not cross over information of individual job scope unless it's necessary. In time of need, 'eliminate' free-rider(s).
Last but not least, it's quite important for team mates to work as a team and as friends... Understanding is important... But all should be adults... Do not abuse rights and defer responsibility.
Regards. -
YOUR FRIEND IS A MANAGER. IN THE WORKING WORLD, HE WILL BE THE ONE PROMOTED INSTEAD OF YOU.Originally posted by m.c.king:Hi.
I've this problem of some kind of "free-rider" in team projects. I've always been with this group of 4 friends. Knew each other for many years now and we're studying together in the same school and in the same course, so we always form a group to work on group projects.
But, after a few projects, I've found that one of them has a tendency. He's not a lazy person like in many other typically cases where he tries to skive. But still, he keeps pushing work to the other members.
Also, he's a perfectionist. He's always doing the "quality control" for our projects. So it becomes the case that the 3 of us will be the slaves working feverishly behind the scene, outputing the real product while he'll be taking our final output, giving comments and reviews and making us go back and redo if he finds faults with them. Even the consolidation of the parts is done by the three of us, not him. So we're doing the real work and he's just the judge and pseudo-manager overseeing the project, and setting deadlines for us. He's just good at telling us what he wants like some upper management people and not a teammate who works with us.
It is apparent in his emails, where he assign everyone something to
do, but never assign himself anything. His email for project will usually reads something like, "A, you do this. I think you're the best man for this task. B, I think you can help with this. C, I think you're talented in this, I guess can settle this section. Then maybe he'll add in a line, I'll be working with A or B or C on this task and usually the primary person who is assigned the task would have done it. And he'll still play the pseudo-manager role again when A, B or C whom he's supposed to work with submits their work for his "review."
The only thing he usually volunteers to do is: "OK, I'll do the final printing, binding and submission..." Heck, it's the easiest job out of the whole project process, isn't it? Open up the file, click Print and bring to binding shop says, "Auntie, please bind this for me, thanks."
It's worse when it comes to programming, which he self-proclaims "I'm bad at it, so since you guys are more proficient at it, you guys should do more and take on the more challenging aspect of the projects." Then he'll just continue to act like some upper management jerk who thinks of some features and keep piling on the workload and saying, "these additional features can help us score better grades!" Damned, of course easy for him to say all these craps since he's not the one writing the real code and doing th programming. Once,we had another project. The other 2 team members were not involved and I was working with this jerk and another girl (a 3 persons project). The jerk said, "I'm not good at this and I think you two can do the project faster and better. I can concentrate more on another project we're doing." So the girl and I worked our guts out and it actually became a three persons project done by 2 persons. And for the other project which he volunteered, he continued to stick to the area he feels he is more comfortable and he ended up writing up parts of the documentation and report, without writing a single line of programming code. So when i questioned him, "But next time you go out to work and cannot even write a simple program, how?" He would reply, "I don't intend to work in the IT industry in future and I'm just in an IT course now to get a 'paper' (certificate)."
Sure, I understand that in group/project work, it's never possible to ensure that the share of work is equal -- some people will do slightly more and some slightly less depending on circumstances and the skills needed.
But what I feel is that we now have a guy who's damned selfish, only thinking of himself. He's not a lazy person but one is taking advantage of our goodwills to further his own goals and using us as some stepping stones. Sure, we always have exams, tests and assignment deadlines to meet ourselves, but I feel he's pushing the group work to us and he's milking us for more time to study for better grades on his own.
And I feel the other team mates and I are having to bear the brunts pf all these craps. Sure, because of his over-demanding style, the team mates are always worked to the maximum, always staying back late. And he keeps emphasizing, "Do we have a choice?" I wish I could tell him straight, "Yeah we do have a choice. We can choose to have a poorer grade and go home and sleep right now."
But working with him, our team have managed to secure a string of A+ for projects, but all due to the hard work and efforts from the three of us. I do not know if we should credit the jerk with his management expertise or psychological motivation. Working with him is hellish, since he'll more likely push you to do more work than help you with existing work.
I also hope I can confront him and tell him straight off the partnership is off. But when it comes to the friendship we've over the years, I usually put it off.
Anyone suffers from this kind of jerk teammate before? Any comments on how to deal with him? -
IF IN THE REAL WORKING WORLD EVEN IF HE BECOMES A MANAGER, HE WILL ALWAYS BE A SMALL TIME MANAGER, IF BOSS HAPPY HAPPY, HE PROMOTE, IF REAL TROUBLE BREWS, HE WILL GO FIRST BECAUSE HE DON'T KNOW HOW TO MANAGE! HE WILL BE MORE LIKE A CLOWN THAN SOMEONE WHOM THE COMPANY WILL STRIVE TO KEEP.
And for God's sake, don't post in all caps.
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Originally posted by gaoyue:IF IN THE REAL WORKING WORLD EVEN IF HE BECOMES A MANAGER, HE WILL ALWAYS BE A SMALL TIME MANAGER, IF BOSS HAPPY HAPPY, HE PROMOTE, IF REAL TROUBLE BREWS, HE WILL GO FIRST BECAUSE HE DON'T KNOW HOW TO MANAGE! HE WILL BE MORE LIKE A CLOWN THAN SOMEONE WHOM THE COMPANY WILL STRIVE TO KEEP.
And for God's sake, don't post in all caps. -
usually i will try to do all the work (p.s cos me v kiasu want to learn more )
erm, but for ur case, if i were u, i wouldnt want to have him in my group, surely u can get other ppl? or juz dun want him in ur group... and if he come approach u, tell him "pai seh, we dun need QC manager here"