Did anyone had experience a faulty ride onboard SBST MB0405?
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this gearbox electronics problem is only applicable to W3R gearbox used by the SBST O.405's. hence, it will not affect any other buses, including Mk II's and SMRTB O.405's, both of which uses ZF gearboxes.Originally posted by bluezombie10:I'm beginning to hate taking SBST Mercedes O405, no matter whether it is the WA or DM body. The automatic gear change is getting from bad to worse. I'm rather unsure whether the MKIIs have that problem. Can anyone enlighten? I believe the O405 should be the one retiring first.
the points highlighted by The_Bus_Guide are true. as VO3x's not being able to climb the slope, it's up to the bus itself as VO3x's shld have no problem climbing the hill.
actually, ZF gearboxes also come with their own similar problems. the 1st or 2nd gear may not run smoothly as the lock-up clutch fails to change the transmission oil flow from vortex to mechnical. tis makes it sounds like it has "lost" a gear though it hasn't.
the problems plauging O.405's are due to its age. now they have been on our roads for 15 years. retirement is due on 2007 onwards. -
but comparing between O405 and MKII, I'd rather have the O405 to retire. Else get the gearbox of the retiring MKII n install in the O405. Hahaha. I know that won't happen. It would incur costs.Originally posted by ^tamago^:this gearbox electrical problem is only applicable to W3R gearbox used by the SBST O.405's. hence, it will not affect any other buses, including Mk II's and SMRTB O.405's, both of which uses ZF gearboxes.
the points highlighted by The_Bus_Guide are true. as VO3x's not being able to climb the slope, it's up to the bus itself as VO3x's shld have no problem climbing the hill.
actually, ZF gearboxes also come with their own similar problems. the 1st or 2nd gear may not run smoothly as the lock-up clutch fails to change the transmission oil flow from vortex to mechnical. tis makes it sounds like it has "lost" a gear though it hasn't.
the problems plauging O.405's are due to its age. now they have been on our roads for 15 years. retirement is due on 2007 onwards.
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First off, Mercedes-Benz no longer make the W3E boxes. Since the O405 are not slated for withdrawal yet, there's no chance for "cannibalising"; ie. taking parts form retired buses and use them on other buses. A large number of O405s are still running well despite being 13-14 years old. I can't recall the O305 having such problems, though. Looks like they don't make buses like they used to. hehe.Originally posted by bluezombie10:I'm beginning to hate taking SBST Mercedes O405, no matter whether it is the WA or DM body. The automatic gear change is getting from bad to worse. I'm rather unsure whether the MKIIs have that problem. Can anyone enlighten? I believe the O405 should be the one retiring first.
If you ask me, I prefer the O405 than the B10M because the O405 is designed and built as a citybus. Have you ever seen an O405 coach? Anyway, it has a 12-litre engine, airbag suspension and a hub-reduction rear axle. I must admit it is a bit noisy but it all adds to its uniqueness. There's only about 2 years plus before the O405s are retired so enjoy it before its gone. -
Hehe. Dun think i saw a O405 coach before. I believe the previous O305 did not have such a problem. I had a preference to O305, maybe because of the speed and length of the bus. Also it was more spacious. Too bad it retired.Originally posted by The_Bus_Guide:First off, Mercedes-Benz no longer make the W3E boxes. Since the O405 are not slated for withdrawal yet, there's no chance for "cannibalising"; ie. taking parts form retired buses and use them on other buses. A large number of O405s are still running well despite being 13-14 years old. I can't recall the O305 having such problems, though. Looks like they don't make buses like they used to. hehe.
If you ask me, I prefer the O405 than the B10M because the O405 is designed and built as a citybus. Have you ever seen an O405 coach? Anyway, it has a 12-litre engine, airbag suspension and a hub-reduction rear axle. I must admit it is a bit noisy but it all adds to its uniqueness. There's only about 2 years plus before the O405s are retired so enjoy it before its gone.
Just wondering if u guys had an idea of what type of suspension the N113CRB are using. I heard from my fren (whose father is now an ex-BC) that they used air suspension? And that very morning, before the buses leave the depot, they had to pump it? Anyone can confirm this? -
Does that explain the faster pick-up? I think the mkIII will win on highway, but the MB0405 will win for shorter dist.Originally posted by The_Bus_Guide:First off, Mercedes-Benz no longer make the W3E boxes. Since the O405 are not slated for withdrawal yet, there's no chance for "cannibalising"; ie. taking parts form retired buses and use them on other buses. A large number of O405s are still running well despite being 13-14 years old. I can't recall the O305 having such problems, though. Looks like they don't make buses like they used to. hehe.
If you ask me, I prefer the O405 than the B10M because the O405 is designed and built as a citybus. Have you ever seen an O405 coach? Anyway, it has a 12-litre engine, airbag suspension and a hub-reduction rear axle. I must admit it is a bit noisy but it all adds to its uniqueness. There's only about 2 years plus before the O405s are retired so enjoy it before its gone.
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Care to exp?Originally posted by SBS1908B:Does that explain the faster pick-up? I think the mkIII will win on highway, but the MB0405 will win for shorter dist. -
Hi, experienced "rain" in an MB0405 (SBS) anyone? I did, on one serving service 159, some days ago, it seemed the rain kind of flowed thru' the roof mounted air-con
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Not Merc O405, but SBS 9478 Y (service 51) also has this problem on the upper deck.Originally posted by MBHawke:Hi, experienced "rain" in an MB0405 (SBS) anyone? I did, on one serving service 159, some days ago, it seemed the rain kind of flowed thru' the roof mounted air-con .... -
The MB0405 has a damn high acceleration, but can only manage 65km/h at most. The mkIII has a damn slow acceleration, but cruises on expressways at 65-70km/h. Hence, in a city with many bus-stops, the mkIII will lose out, and in uninterrupted areas, the mkIII wins. Of course there are BCs willing to push the MB0405 through the gate, and I have seen mkIIIs overtake light lorries from stop, so its just a general opinion.Originally posted by SBS9828X:Care to exp? -
Ah, here's another case study.
3921Z went happily from PSR to Toa Payoh, during TPE driving, the bus cruised noisily at 60-65km/h. Then aft 2nd stop at Sengkang, the BC drove the sluggish MB0405 up the steep slope. And when it came down the slope, the bus kinda jerked suddenly and we got stuck at 1st gear through out the journey. -
From my personal experiences riding the M-B O 405 over 15 years, i find that overall the O 405 provides the best travel experience among the SBS fleet of current vehicles.
The issue of abnormal, jerky gearshifts i've also experienced but these are strictly the exception rather than the norm. Bearing in mind the large population of O 405 in SBS fleet (approx. 700 units) the absolute no. of units with such gearbox problems of course seems 'many' but one must take into consideration their large population here !
I do recall taking the O 405 brand-new (SBS 82 P on route 76) 15 years ago & the vehicle was slowly climbing up Boundary Road with full-load of passengers & the gear change was 'seamless' i.e. cannot even detect the noise or vibration when the gear changed & only the drop in engine speed confirmed the gear changed !! That's the 'normal' standard of M-B gearbox behavior which also blends superbly with the excellent suspension ride comfort, which to this day ranks with the best & unsurpassed.
I also do recall taking an O 405 this time 15 years later just a few months back
(route 133 using Duple-Metsec body) this unit also demonstarted the 'normal'
M-B standard of 'seamless' gear-change mentioned above !
The majority of times i've taken the O 405 over the past 15 years..the gearchange performance was somewhere in between the 2 'extremes' i.e. between 'seamless' to jerky etc. but MOSTLY smooth enough to be 'inperceptable' i.e. overall still smooth & certainly not inferior to the other makes & models of buses here, irrespective of age.
Therefore what i can conclude is that maintenance & driver competence also do play very significantly in the gearchange performance & consistent top class maintenance (which i'm honestly NOT sure was always given !) do utimately make the difference between you get a smooth ride or a jerky one !
The O 405 is no doubt a fine class citybus, 1st world standard & still there even in Germany nowadays in service BUT to achieve that, sufficient maintenance must be given with no corner cutting !
For info, this issue of jerky gearchanges i've also experienced on the Saab-Scania N113CRB here. Those were more 'violent' though not noisy. I observed some drivers tend to release the accelerator @ the 'wrong' time (presumably because they scared they gone too fast !) just when the gear changed so that
the gearbox seemed 'undecided' which gear to stay in etc. hence the jerkyness.
I do believe if they held on the ride would have on the whole been smoother with less obvious gear changes ! -
If you talk about performance, it gotta be the Scania 113 (AC and NAC)! As for ride comfort, the 0405 is tops. MB0405 lack of seats? If I'm not wrong, before the conversion of the current light-red seats and the standing poles.....there used to be fully seat equipped with grey blue-strip seats.Originally posted by SBS1908B:I think SBST MB0405 very shiok, quick off the mark, powerful. I think besides trident and 0405s, few can rival their power. Only think about 0405 is lack of seats, damn noisy.
Yes, it's truly cracking noisy! -
*sighs* I'll miss the 0405s once they retire...wonder which bus will replace them. So many 0405s to retire...i guess it'll be a lengthy process...Regarding the bus itself, i do notice the 0405s in the past when there are still NAC 0405s do run more smoothly and sounds nicer compared to now. Theres no doubt the buses are ageing.
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The jerkiness not so jia lat last time, and the MB0405 dm was very nice-looking. These days, the MB0405s keep experiencing a surge in power when they change gears. An idea why?
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Being an M-B product, they age relatively gradually & they continue to look up to date even though the model may have been produced for 20 years, like the O 303 & O 405. I do believe that a top class product deserves only top class
maintenence & with that, they'll last a lifetime meaning to me to be 20 to 30 years ! Due to M-B's innovative & advanced design approach, most of their products have longer design shelf life than say some Japanese or Korean vehicle. Therefore 20 to 30 years is NOT exactly unrealistic given the advanceness & quality of their product relative to almost any other @ any point in time.
A fine class product is always more worth maintaining & keeping than a lousier class product with inferior product appeal & value !
Recently i took an O 405 on route 105 (SBS 563 i think) & found it unusually quiet interior noise levels & smooth in gearchange ! Downside was that acceleration was not as quick & forceful. Any sure what modifications done to the gearbox or if another type of gearbox or setting was experimented on ? Only a few O 405 here i experienced such quietness & smoothness, which is of course way beyond the newer Volvo lot !Originally posted by Halide:*sighs* I'll miss the 0405s once they retire...wonder which bus will replace them. So many 0405s to retire...i guess it'll be a lengthy process...Regarding the bus itself, i do notice the 0405s in the past when there are still NAC 0405s do run more smoothly and sounds nicer compared to now. Theres no doubt the buses are ageing. -
tat's a MB O.405 with a 3-speed Voith automatic gearbox, so it appears smooth on gear change but acceleration is not as quick & forceful.Originally posted by hseochin:Being an M-B product, they age relatively gradually & they continue to look up to date even though the model may have been produced for 20 years, like the O 303 & O 405. I do believe that a top class product deserves only top class
maintenence & with that, they'll last a lifetime meaning to me to be 20 to 30 years ! Due to M-B's innovative & advanced design approach, most of their products have longer design shelf life than say some Japanese or Korean vehicle. Therefore 20 to 30 years is NOT exactly unrealistic given the advanceness & quality of their product relative to almost any other @ any point in time.
A fine class product is always more worth maintaining & keeping than a lousier class product with inferior product appeal & value !
Recently i took an O 405 on route 105 (SBS 563 i think) & found it unusually quiet interior noise levels & smooth in gearchange ! Downside was that acceleration was not as quick & forceful. Any sure what modifications done to the gearbox or if another type of gearbox or setting was experimented on ? Only a few O 405 here i experienced such quietness & smoothness, which is of course way beyond the newer Volvo lot ! -
No doubt that O405s are better built citybuses than B10Ms,But there are also plus minus points like.......
MBO405s,Good for stop n go,Uphill and U-Turn,Bad in raining days and worse the spare parts are damm expensive after Scanias.
B10Ms,Good in raining days and quite steady for cruising speeds,Bad in U-Turning,High steps and even worse the driver compartment are too way high
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But whatever gearbox this used, this behaves differently from the O 405 here i've riden on with M-B or Voith gearbox. Retarder braking seems totally absent.
The 'normal' Voith box is different from this in that acceleration i find it similar to the M-B box but doesn't seem to have a 'final' gear to change to once crusing speed ~ 60 km/h reached ! As such engine speed hence noise levels are higher compared to if another gear available to change to.
Maybe its SBS 546 as i don't normally pay attention to such details but focus more on the vehicles itself.Originally posted by ^tamago^:tat's a MB O.405 with a 3-speed Voith automatic gearbox, so it appears smooth on gear change but acceleration is not as quick & forceful. -
i think sometimes different buses will have a different feel cos it's tuned differently.Originally posted by hseochin:But whatever gearbox this used, this behaves differently from the O 405 here i've riden on with M-B or Voith gearbox. Retarder braking seems totally absent.
The 'normal' Voith box is different from this in that acceleration i find it similar to the M-B box but doesn't seem to have a 'final' gear to change to once crusing speed ~ 60 km/h reached ! As such engine speed hence noise levels are higher compared to if another gear available to change to.
Maybe its SBS 546 as i don't normally pay attention to such details but focus more on the vehicles itself.
singapore's voith gearboxes are 3-speed. thus, they dun use an overdrive (1st gear - hydrualical, 2nd gear - 1.36 ratio, 3rd gear - 1.00 ratio) tat kicks in at higher speeds since it's inpractical in singaporean context to go to that speed for a public bus, plus they have affixed a speed limiter at 60kph, thus kicking into overdrive at this speed may lead to under-revving. -
To me, in any vehicle if you cannot get to use a gear ratio of 1, it simply doesn't make economic or practical sense ! Because then you're crusing with an 'inefficient' gear ratio, causing the engine to run faster & noiser than really neccessary to keep the crusing speed. Just like driving a car on a level road on 3rd gear only with a 4 or 5-speed manual gearbox, which is simply stupid.
This speed limiter is a nusience device, fit for certain trucks only which i find really has no place or real benefit in buses !! Sooner they get rid of it, the better.
Coming to think more of it, that gearbox on that O 405 sounded like those Allisons which were retrofitted on some OF 1413 in terms of noise levels & gearchange smoothness. Plenty of 'free running' (which makes the engine much quieter than 'usual' !) with the primary brakes only being used it seemed (so expect the brake pad wear to be much higher than 'usual' also) with slower acceleration, of course still much quicker & more forceful than on the OF 1413.Originally posted by ^tamago^:i think sometimes different buses will have a different feel cos it's tuned differently.
singapore's voith gearboxes are 3-speed. thus, they dun use an overdrive (1st gear - hydrualical, 2nd gear - 1.36 ratio, 3rd gear - 1.00 ratio) tat kicks in at higher speeds since it's inpractical in singaporean context to go to that speed for a public bus, plus they have affixed a speed limiter at 60kph, thus kicking into overdrive at this speed may lead to under-revving. -
Hey guys, has anyone taken SBS 488C of 105 recently? Anyone know what is the problem with the engine(or maybe gearbox?) of that bus? There's this loud noise emitting from the engine once the BC steps off the gas pedal a little. Have nt seen that bus these few days, hope its undergoing repairs for that problem.
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Is it loud noise with/without noticible vibrations ?
Don't understand what you mean by step off the pedal, you mean when the
accelerator pedal is released when stationary ?
If that's the case, then i've also encountered 'more than a handfull' of such annoying incidents not only from SBST but also buses from others like SJE as well ! Not only involving M-B, but Scania & MAN too.
In those cases, i observe the engine idling speed becomes too low whenever the air-con compressor comes on, thereby causing unneccessary noise & vibrations from the engine. I'll then blame it on the idling speed being set not taking into account the effect of an air-con compressor in-use, like in cold countries without air-con. I'll expect the idling speed to be raised a little (even if that wastes little more fuel) so that when compressor comes on, the resultant engine idling speed does not fall below the original minimum level !!
Then no abnormal noise or vibrations. With high mileage use, settings may have changed through normal wear & tear so require re-setting like you tighten some screw & it becomes loose after few million km, so you need to re-adjust & re-tighten etc.
If not due to air-con compressor effect, then i believe is due to gearbox's idler shaft not taking away the excess torque while the bus is stationary, thereby 'passing it back' to the engine, resulting in an effect like some malfunctioning exhaust brake which 'forces' the engine to run below the required idling speed, thus causing excessive noise & vibrations from the engine. Modern automatic gearboxes like on the O 405 are known to last 1000000 km or longer between servicing/replacement so maybe time to renew the gearbox or least give it it's due overhaul !Originally posted by Halide:Hey guys, has anyone taken SBS 488C of 105 recently? Anyone know what is the problem with the engine(or maybe gearbox?) of that bus? There's this loud noise emitting from the engine once the BC steps off the gas pedal a little. Have nt seen that bus these few days, hope its undergoing repairs for that problem. -
I think I understand what you mean. The O405 gives out a howl when the accelerator is released while the bus is moving. If you listen closer, you will find that it is actually coming from the wheels. It's none other than the hub-reduction axle. It is usually audible on the DM buses because the chassii are older than the WA ones. The later batch of O405/Gs (like the ones with SMRT) have quiet hubs. You can still hear them sometimes, especially on a fully loaded bus but mostly it is muted over the loud engine. Loud hubs are not a problem at all and a sheer joy for many enthusiasts, including me!Originally posted by Halide:Hey guys, has anyone taken SBS 488C of 105 recently? Anyone know what is the problem with the engine(or maybe gearbox?) of that bus? There's this loud noise emitting from the engine once the BC steps off the gas pedal a little. Have nt seen that bus these few days, hope its undergoing repairs for that problem. -
That sort of sound you're refering to i don't believe it's from the wheels !
I'll say it's from the gearbox. Certainly not a very pleasant experience to me because i find it too noisy, vibrasive & harsh !! The less of such sounds the better as being a PSV, passenger riding comfort has to be of highest priority as high as any other factor !
I've taken the O 405 used in JB by TransitLink & find the acceleration & speeding capabilities not any different from the O 405 in Singapore yet theirs hardly produces much of the whinning noises & vibrations associated with it from the transmission ! The overall ride is so much quieter & I mainly ONLY hear the (newer generation similar to TIBS's O 405) engine sound which is quieter than the older naturally aspirated engines used in the SBST O 405. That sort of standard i'll consider as 'normal' O 405 standard & i do believe TransitLink's O 405 uses the original M-B gearbox, which is the superior match to the O 405 compared to 3rd party boxes from ZF or Voith, which tend to be noisier, more vibrasive & harsh much the time !! Seems to me M-B caters more to passenger comfort by making gearboxes with lower NVH levels even if that may mean their gearboxes are more expensive ! If that's the price for superior comfort i'll gladly pay the premium for a far more pleasant ride !
The SBST O 305 & O 405 which uses the M-B gearboxes also exhibit similar (far lower) levels of noise, vibrations & harshness from the transmission. There's still some detectable whinning noise but it's very much less obvious (hence more tolerable !) compared with O 405, OH 1318 (TransitLink in Malaysia) even Nissan Diesels which used the ZF gearboxes.
About the rear axle hubs, i believe those with larger flat surface are the earlier ones as O 305 also looks similar to these. The later ones are smaller. But both types exist on the O 405 here & i recall those O 405 with DM body came AFTER those with WA body with the majority being the smaller ones. Whichever type of rear axle used, i detected NO difference in the NVH levels from the transmission as long as the same gearbox used.
All the O 405 used by TIBS i've riden on (except 1 if i would consider so) have such noisy, vibrasive & harsh transmission. On that exceptional 1 the whinny noises & other unpleasantries associated with it goes away when the highest road speed gear reached & then passengers get the sort of quiet ride they deserve to be getting !! That unit i took on route 61.
On the O 405 G the transmission seemed less noisy, vibrasive & harsh than on TIBS O 405, being about same as on SBST O 405. Maybe that's why on O 405 G there seems only either ZF or Voith gearboxes offered with no mention of M-B gearbox availability ! I think M-B probably considers the 3rd party gearboxes used on the O 405 G as quiet & overall pleasant in comfort as their own so
no point to offer their own on the O 405 G !?!
Exactly the same sort of noisy, vibrasive & harsh transmission you'll also find
on SJE's OH 1627 L but with 1 big (pleasant) difference !!!!
You hear exactly the same irritating unwanted (to me) noises EXCEPT that when the highest road speed gear reached, the entire transmission seems to suddenly disappear, i.e. almost TOTAL absense of any noise, vibration or harshness from it ! The V-8 engine is of course hardly audible even @ 100 km/h & with air-con compressor in off mode (when cold enough reached) you travel like in dead silence, with only some wind noise from the outside (only if near 100 km/h) & roof mounted air-con evaporator-condenser blower fans !
That experience (together with that from the O 405 G) suggest to me that ZF can produce quiet & 'pleasant' gearboxes too, only in that it's only on certain vehicle models & gear only, most unfortunately ! M-B gearboxes on the other hand, i find to be overall the more pleasant ones to live with, with their tendencies to produce lower NVH levels largely 'across the board' !!Originally posted by The_Bus_Guide:I think I understand what you mean. The O405 gives out a howl when the accelerator is released while the bus is moving. If you listen closer, you will find that it is actually coming from the wheels. It's none other than the hub-reduction axle. It is usually audible on the DM buses because the chassii are older than the WA ones. The later batch of O405/Gs (like the ones with SMRT) have quiet hubs. You can still hear them sometimes, especially on a fully loaded bus but mostly it is muted over the loud engine. Loud hubs are not a problem at all and a sheer joy for many enthusiasts, including me!