Manual Transmission
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Is there or were there any public buses that use manual transmission?
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MAlaysia.. ??
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Yes... That was the good old daysOriginally posted by SBS9828X:Is there or were there any public buses that use manual transmission?
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... in the era of non-aircon buses where the engines were mounted right in front, beside the driver's seat.Originally posted by sbst275:Yes... That was the good old days -
Yeap... Front engine busesOriginally posted by cornyfish2000:... in the era of non-aircon buses where the engines were mounted right in front, beside the driver's seat.
Missed the OF1413/1417, Volvo B57... Note that some are Auto
And when the driver had a door for them to board the bus -
That brings the question: Which is the first type of public bus to have fully automatic transmission? Were the Isuzu 20PA/20PA2 and Nissan 4R94/RX102K3, from STC in the 1960s, automatic?
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Some of the Vikings also had auto gear. Also, why did many of these buses have the Leyland badge? Weren't they built by Albion Motors?Originally posted by sbst275:Yeap... Front engine buses
Missed the OF1413/1417, Volvo B57... Note that some are Auto
And when the driver had a door for them to board the bus -
Albion was purchased by Leyland Motors Ltd. in 1951. After Leyland and Albion design teams co-operated with each other, Leyland engines were seen in Albion vehicles and Albion gearboxes and axles turned up in Leyland trucks and buses. After the British Leyland Motors Corp. was founded in 1968, Leyland removed the less popular Albion models. By 1970 only the Clydesdale and Viking models were available, and the engine options were confined to Leyland 401, 600 and 680 engines.
The Allison automatic gearbox was installed later. This somewhat lightens the driver's workload. The Viking was a hardy and straight-forward vehicle. There's no power steering and the gear selector is stiff. I've heard that a driver once dislocated his shoulder driving one of the them. Despite these setbacks, I still love those loud, fast and bumpy Albion Vikings. Arang...arang...arang...hehehe. -
What models were the old Merc school buses? Were they LP1113s?
Also, was the LP1113 a modified truck chassis? I understand the Bedford SB was.
Were many of the school buses Bedford SBs and what happened to the truck builder in later years? -
Yes, the LP1113 was a modified truck chassis. They were easily identified by the location of the front axle, which was located right below the engine. However, there were normal bus chassii as well, such as the OF1413. Most of them were ex-SBS. The LP1113 and OF1413 are long gone. Some of you might claim of having seen an OF1413 but these are actually either an OF1315 or OH1318. Although the chassis is new, some of the bodywork on these buses come from ex-SBS OF1413s! How's that for recycling?
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I recall the suspension ride comfort on the LP 1113 not as good as on OF 1413/1417, especially when seated @ the extreme rear ! More truck than bus like ! But found it still better than on Volvo B7F/B57 years later !!
LP 1113 front overhang very short & came with the original M-B front body just like on their trucks of the time, complete with single piece 3 wiper windscreen & full dashboard with the '1113' in chrome characters like the '200' or '280 S' you also find in their cars of that time. M-B wanted 'consistency' i suppose whether on their cars, trucks or buses !
Unfortunately the full dashboard was not preserved when SBS replaced the junky (non M-B) rest of the body with a completely new design from Soon Chow around 1979 & only the instrumentation was retained. They should have least retained the M-B original front part of the body as the quality & condition was superior to the rest of the (non M-B) bodywork used. More original character thus would have been preserved.
So i don't think there was any 'recycling' of the (lousy junky local) bodywork which were in such bad state only fit for scrap. However the bus chassis part of the bus was still in excellent serviciable condition so it was still worth to overhaul & continue to use it but with a new body instead.
As the OF 1413 is longer than the newer OF 1315 or OH 1318, not likely the body on the OF 1413 would fit onto the shorter newer chassi.Originally posted by The_Bus_Guide:Yes, the LP1113 was a modified truck chassis. They were easily identified by the location of the front axle, which was located right below the engine. However, there were normal bus chassii as well, such as the OF1413. Most of them were ex-SBS. The LP1113 and OF1413 are long gone. Some of you might claim of having seen an OF1413 but these are actually either an OF1315 or OH1318. Although the chassis is new, some of the bodywork on these buses come from ex-SBS OF1413s! How's that for recycling? -
Although I did not take these old buses with Manual Transmission in SBS buses before, I actually took it when I am siting the school bus. The school bus was a Mercedes-Benz O306 that was transfered from, maybe SBS. One unique feature is that this school bus had converted into an air-con bus.
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Here's a specimen that I found.Originally posted by hseochin:So i don't think there was any 'recycling' of the (lousy junky local) bodywork which were in such bad state only fit for scrap. However the bus chassis part of the bus was still in excellent serviciable condition so it was still worth to overhaul & continue to use it but with a new body instead.
As the OF 1413 is longer than the newer OF 1315 or OH 1318, not likely the body on the OF 1413 would fit onto the shorter newer chassi.
http://suhirman.fotopic.net/p10916087.html
An OH1318 with the body of an OF1413. The rear was modified to accomodate the engine; so was the front which was panelled up where the original engine bay used to be. PH1705L has already been de-registered.
This was the more modern Soon Chow design which replaced the original all aluminium bodywork with ribbed side panels. The new design features a moulded glass-fibre front dome and smooth panels. Many Mercedes OF1413, Albion Viking and Leyland Victory were re-fitted with this bodywork in the mid-1980s. So when the buses were retired a few years later, its bodywork was still in a fairly good condition. -
Very interesting to note, because todate i've not seen any O 306 ever used as school bus in Singapore ! School buses 10 to 20 years ago here (even nowadays perhaps) tend to be the smaller vehicles, smaller than even the SWB version of O 306 used by SBS. Also i've not come across any O 306 with air-con.
I've ever riden on a different version of O 306 in Indonesia in 1980 which had very short front overhang, unique engine bonnet which occupied the front passenger region completely & with exhaust brake. This smaller version i'll say is the version of O 306 more likely used for schoolbus BUT i don't think SBS ever used this type of O 306 & i've never seen it in Singapore before. From the lateral positioning of the engine bonnet i suspect the engine was transversely mounted over the front axle & maybe done like that because to facilitate all-wheel-drive !?! That O 306 i took was used by Nitour Medan & it was used to bring tourists up the mountain going to Lake Toba. (Any further info on this version of the O 306 i'm keen to know, if anyone knows better)
Maybe you're referring to the O 309 ? That's a very popular schoolbus in Singapore in the 70's & 80's & even now in Malaysia continues to be used as such ! O 309 used a (M-B of course) car engine unlike the O 306 which used a heavy duty commercial vehicle engine. But any air-con for the O 309 would have to be via a 3rd party seperate engine for the air-con compressor mounted @ the rear as the 65 BHP car engine can just move the minibus only !Originally posted by CAIX:Although I did not take these old buses with Manual Transmission in SBS buses before, I actually took it when I am siting the school bus. The school bus was a Mercedes-Benz O306 that was transfered from, maybe SBS. One unique feature is that this school bus had converted into an air-con bus. -
In that case i'll say they re-used the front portion of the body only. Not likely the body previously on the OF 1413 in entirety because the wheelbase, overhangs & overall length of the OF 1413 is longer than on OH 1318.
Looking @ the photo, this 'OH 1318' does appear longer than it should !
If indeed the body was reused in entirety then i believe they took the entire OF 1413 with this body, took out the original front mounted engine & re-mounted it @ the rear of the chassis via their own (likely unauthorised by M-B) modifications !!
I suspect in Malaysia unauthorised (by M-B) modifications do take place sometimes even on brand-new chassi. I recall taking such a suspect vehicle before using a coach body to KL from Golden Mile here. In that case i noted car-like shock-absorbers fitted onto the spring suspended chassi while normally i won't expect to find these used. The suspension seemed a little more comfortable & quieter as such (compared to the standard spring suspended setups of the OH 1318 etc.) but still not up to air suspension standards. The exhaust pipe also changed & the in-line 6 cylinder only engine was made to sound more high class like the V8 instead as such etc. only to expose the fakery when the coach above 100 km/h & then the usual 6-cylinder engine sounds comes back ! But such vehicles are the exception rather than the norm i'll think. Since then i've not come across another like that unit from that or any other operator.
A shorter version of such Soon Chow bodies were used to re-body those LP 1113 in late 70's.
On further thought, why was this 'OH 1318' de-registered so soon, unless it was say involved in accident & damaged beyond viable repair ?
The OH series was launched in Singapore only in late 80's & only from 1990 onwards became popular here & in Malaysia. That means even the oldest OH 1318 here would by now only be 15 years old so why de-register when the so-called statutory life span is 20 years ? On the other hand if its indeed OF 1413 then likely the 20 year time exceeded so that's why it was de-registered ?Originally posted by The_Bus_Guide:Here's a specimen that I found.
http://suhirman.fotopic.net/p10916087.html
An OH1318 with the body of an OF1413. The rear was modified to accomodate the engine; so was the front which was panelled up where the original engine bay used to be. PH1705L has already been de-registered.
This was the more modern Soon Chow design which replaced the original all aluminium bodywork with ribbed side panels. The new design features a moulded glass-fibre front dome and smooth panels. Many Mercedes OF1413, Albion Viking and Leyland Victory were re-fitted with this bodywork in the mid-1980s. So when the buses were retired a few years later, its bodywork was still in a fairly good condition. -
i remember when i was younger, most of the single deck buses were manual.
the double deck bus with the 4 piece rear door was using auto and for single decks only the volvo was auto.
the single deck volvos were really rare, so most of the time i only got to see the double deck ones... i always liked the tiny gear stick they had. -
I made a check through the LTA online enquiry on PH1705L and found that the bus is still "alive". The model is stated as OH1318/60. I presume 60 is the wheelbase of 6000mm. Anyway, its life span expiry is May 2011. So considering its statutory life span is 20 years, it should be new in 1991.Originally posted by hseochin:In that case i'll say they re-used the front portion of the body only. Not likely the body previously on the OF 1413 in entirety because the wheelbase, overhangs & overall length of the OF 1413 is longer than on OH 1318.
Looking @ the photo, this 'OH 1318' does appear longer than it should !
If indeed the body was reused in entirety then i believe they took the entire OF 1413 with this body, took out the original front mounted engine & re-mounted it @ the rear of the chassis via their own (likely unauthorised by M-B) modifications !!
On further thought, why was this 'OH 1318' de-registered so soon, unless it was say involved in accident & damaged beyond viable repair ?
The OH series was launched in Singapore only in late 80's & only from 1990 onwards became popular here & in Malaysia. That means even the oldest OH 1318 here would by now only be 15 years old so why de-register when the so-called statutory life span is 20 years ? On the other hand if its indeed OF 1413 then likely the 20 year time exceeded so that's why it was de-registered ?
I made a check on another OH1318 model, PH2553B, a CAIO Vittoria bodied model owned by Comfortbus. The model is OH1318/51. If indeed the number following the model is the wheelbase, its possible that PH1705L is the longer wheelbase version of the OH1318 and that accounts for its longer overall length. -
You're right in that if it's OH 1318/60 that means wheelbase of 6000 mm.
That case i'll consider that OH 1318 as the rarer version as i know most OH 1318 tend to be the shorter version of 5100 mm wheelbase.
But still the overhangs of the OH i believe are shorter than OF, so in that case i'll say they re-used the front part of the body only.
Interestingly about bodywork, since you mentioned about CAIO on the OH 1318/51, are there other makes of bus chassi here using these Latin Amercian bodies including Marcopolo as well, besides the M-B OH series ? Seems nil to me.
I believe there's some Scania bus-chassi here sourced from Brazil but not coming here CBU like these M-B's with Brazillian bodies. Then there's also some OH 1318 with Australian Denning coachwork. Seems no other chassi make here uses these bodies.Originally posted by The_Bus_Guide:I made a check through the LTA online enquiry on PH1705L and found that the bus is still "alive". The model is stated as OH1318/60. I presume 60 is the wheelbase of 6000mm. Anyway, its life span expiry is May 2011. So considering its statutory life span is 20 years, it should be new in 1991.
I made a check on another OH1318 model, PH2553B, a CAIO Vittoria bodied model owned by Comfortbus. The model is OH1318/51. If indeed the number following the model is the wheelbase, its possible that PH1705L is the longer wheelbase version of the OH1318 and that accounts for its longer overall length. -
I haven't seen Brazilian bodyworks on other makes either. So there are Marcopolo and Denning clad MBs in S'pore? I'd like to see/photograph one. Any specimens you know of and where to find them?Originally posted by hseochin:Interestingly about bodywork, since you mentioned about CAIO on the OH 1318/51, are there other makes of bus chassi here using these Latin Amercian bodies including Marcopolo as well, besides the M-B OH series ? Seems nil to me.
I believe there's some Scania bus-chassi here sourced from Brazil but not coming here CBU like these M-B's with Brazillian bodies. Then there's also some OH 1318 with Australian Denning coachwork. Seems no other chassi make here uses these bodies. -
I believe all the M-B using Marcopolo & Denning bodywork in Singapore are OH 1318. For Marcopolo i think Comfort has 'absorbed' some from previously independent private school bus owners (like the Caio ones) & for Denning i think AZ Bus operator (yellow & green colour body ?) have some. Of course the rest of these here are likely scattered over some independent private bus owners.
There should be a few dozen units here in total maybe in Ang Mo Kio there's 1 Denning near the plan printing shop in Avenue 10 area.
The Denning is less obvious to identify as if the bodywork was repainted the Denning name & C&C logo may not have been reproduced ! But the M-B original metallic-silver plastic coach wheel covers should still be there, unless stolen !
The rear windscreen is quite usually large & curved towards the top, like that of the O 404. That i find is a major identifying feature of the Dennings here.
Besides Marcopolo, Caio & Alan Denning, the OH 1318 (likely chassi used if not then OH 1418 or OH 1421 L possibly) here also can be seen using a look-alike body (non original M-B i'll say) of the O 404, complete with the O 404 rear lampset & front 3-element headlamps. But it doesn't have the 3-dimensional side panelling the O 404 is famous for & the glasswork is too vertical rather than curved like the real thing ! In Singapore they marketed this body as a school bus (!) instead of a luxury class coach which was what the O 404 was intended to be ! This lookalike O 404 body here was produced by a retired M-B engineer who i believe produced the real O 404 back in Germany. But the bodywork & completed bus with chassis was imported CBU to Singapore made outside Germany in South West Asia. Don't know the name of this coachbuilder & i think this could have been a 'one-off' job done more as a pastime/hobby than as some long term business.Originally posted by The_Bus_Guide:I haven't seen Brazilian bodyworks on other makes either. So there are Marcopolo and Denning clad MBs in S'pore? I'd like to see/photograph one. Any specimens you know of and where to find them? -
I am not sure if it is MB 0306 or 0309. The bus outside shows only the MB logo only, thats why I'm not sure. I think it looks like MB 0309.Originally posted by hseochin:Very interesting to note, because todate i've not seen any O 306 ever used as school bus in Singapore ! School buses 10 to 20 years ago here (even nowadays perhaps) tend to be the smaller vehicles, smaller than even the SWB version of O 306 used by SBS. Also i've not come across any O 306 with air-con.
I've ever riden on a different version of O 306 in Indonesia in 1980 which had very short front overhang, unique engine bonnet which occupied the front passenger region completely & with exhaust brake. This smaller version i'll say is the version of O 306 more likely used for schoolbus BUT i don't think SBS ever used this type of O 306 & i've never seen it in Singapore before. From the lateral positioning of the engine bonnet i suspect the engine was transversely mounted over the front axle & maybe done like that because to facilitate all-wheel-drive !?! That O 306 i took was used by Nitour Medan & it was used to bring tourists up the mountain going to Lake Toba. (Any further info on this version of the O 306 i'm keen to know, if anyone knows better)
Maybe you're referring to the O 309 ? That's a very popular schoolbus in Singapore in the 70's & 80's & even now in Malaysia continues to be used as such ! O 309 used a (M-B of course) car engine unlike the O 306 which used a heavy duty commercial vehicle engine. But any air-con for the O 309 would have to be via a 3rd party seperate engine for the air-con compressor mounted @ the rear as the 65 BHP car engine can just move the minibus only ! -
If the front of the bus has a short bonnet with single piece windscreen with 2 horizontally resting wipers, then most certainly it's O 309.
Most of the O 309 here used the original M-B body up to the front bonnet region, with the rest of the body done by 3rd party local bodybuilders.
Many of them should have the chrome O 309 model designation on both sides on the M-B part of the body, unless i'll say these were stolen by some sovenior hunters !!Originally posted by CAIX:I am not sure if it is MB 0306 or 0309. The bus outside shows only the MB logo only, thats why I'm not sure. I think it looks like MB 0309. -
You are right, my school bus fits your description. It must be a 0309. The schoolbus's interior is very old and its engine is at the front. Another thing is that the bus entrance and exit open and close door botton is the old fashion one, its like a leaver, pull the "stick" up to open door and pull it down to close the door. Quite unique.Originally posted by hseochin:If the front of the bus has a short bonnet with single piece windscreen with 2 horizontally resting wipers, then most certainly it's O 309.
Most of the O 309 here used the original M-B body up to the front bonnet region, with the rest of the body done by 3rd party local bodybuilders.
Many of them should have the chrome O 309 model designation on both sides on the M-B part of the body, unless i'll say these were stolen by some sovenior hunters !! -
From what i remember, the O 309 here originally didn't have any auto passenger door & it was open all the time when the bus was used. Only much later on did they retrofit a pneumatic operated door but no stick was used instead the valve tap was like the swing type, like that used in laboratory gas supply taps.
I think the stick type here were original fittings & only used by the Japanese buses like Hino & Nissan Diesel. Never saw it on any O 309 here.
The O 306 however came with original auto doors with quite different operating switches. It was the 'silent' type (but i don't think it's hydraulic though possible) with hardly any air sound when the doors open/close unlike the other types which were noisy when operating. To open a door the driver had to press down a button located near the parking brake & to close the same button had to be pulled upwards. 1 button for each door.Originally posted by CAIX:You are right, my school bus fits your description. It must be a 0309. The schoolbus's interior is very old and its engine is at the front. Another thing is that the bus entrance and exit open and close door botton is the old fashion one, its like a leaver, pull the "stick" up to open door and pull it down to close the door. Quite unique. -
If I'm not wrong, the B57s also had a similar system in place.Originally posted by hseochin:The O 306 however came with original auto doors with quite different operating switches. It was the 'silent' type (but i don't think it's hydraulic though possible) with hardly any air sound when the doors open/close unlike the other types which were noisy when operating. To open a door the driver had to press down a button located near the parking brake & to close the same button had to be pulled upwards. 1 button for each door.