Technical questions about buses , please post here.
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As mentioned by you, the HI's bodywork used on their MAN 18.250 has the last seat row raised the highest, unlike on the O 405 where the level is roughly same as the row before it. But i notice besides the different seat heights, the floor on the 18.250 is spilt-level with the higher level protruding ~ 1 m from the rear before quite a steep drop to the sloping floor below.
Therefore, upon further thoughts in view of the more updated info @ the MAN website on the 18.280 & the above observations, i'll now put it that both the 18.280 & 18.250 use a similar citybus chassi & dashboard but with the 18.250 using the older 12-litre engine but vertically mounted instead of horizontally as on the O 405 & SL 252.
My feedback on my earlier posts did not take notice of the high spilt-level floor near the extreme rear. If there's no such spilt-floor there then with only the raised last seat row, then maybe the engine used could be the smaller 7-litre instead with vertical mounting.
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Originally posted by hseochin:
Upon checking the engineering drawing @ their website, i notice they now use the same citybus dashboard which was used on the SL252 (similar as on O 405) on the 18.280 as well !
But i sense something's not quite 'right' in that they pass off the 18.280 shown in the website photo as 'chassis' only because the bodywork certainly does appear to me to be of 'sufficient' quality in design & finish to pass off as original MAN citybus body instead !?! The 'themes' in the styling is certainly consistent with MAN integrally constructed CBU OEM bodywork which 'flows smoothly' from their bus to coach to truck product lines, i observe. Most unlikely therefore they should say it's 'chassi' only as such ? Maybe the body shown only used as 'model' for illustration purposes ?? As such i find it somewhat confusing because looking @ the complete bus purely on looks it would likely be though to be a SL252 or SL262 instead ?!?
In conclusion, i'll say that what's currently shown @ the MAN website is probably only their current product line-up for the Malaysian market i.e. they don't show the older models like those SL252 used by Intrakota & these are the ones my 'engine perception' instincts (based on perceived levels of 'soildness' & 'sound power') tells me that the 12-litre was ever used on their citybus model like the SL252 & in view of the larger physical dimensions of a 12-litre (compared to say a much smaller 7-litre unit) it's most certain in the SL252 that the 12-litre engine was horizontally mounted like on O 405. If it's a coach body then maybe they'll consider vertical mounting as well in view of the lesser need to ensure a low floor level compared to in the case for a citybus body.
I note there's no 18.250 mentioned @ the MAN website, so that'll mean one can't be too sure yet that the engine on the 18.250 is vertically mounted ??
Why i don't think the engine is vertical is because in order for it to be vertically mounted onto a citybus body (with the emphasis on as low as possible as floor height) the engine would have to a 'small' cc engine (like 7-litre instead of a much bigger 12-litre unit) so that the longitudinal protrusion is not too 'long' that they need to raise the rear section of the body too high & long. If the 18.250 uses the 7-litre engine then possible it's vertically mounted since the protrusion into the body is minimal. BUT having actually 'heard' the 18.250 on my rides taken, the sound characteristics simply tell me the engine used cannot be as small as 7-litre, which means to me the next larger known engine they use is the older noisier 12-litre unit, which for citybus body mounting would most certainly have to be horizontally mounted.
So, you could be right that the 18.250 has vertically mounted engine but i think the best way to be sure is to flip open the bonnet to find out...but for the reasons mentioned above, i'm still doubtful.
As for the MAN models used in HI's fleet, assuming they use only the current models available on CW2, i then expect it to be 18.313 instead of 18.280, as earlier though, unless MAN offers 2 versions of the 18.280 i.e. citybus & coach versions ?? But if it's the 18.313 the engine doesn't sound like a MAN 12-litre engine to me, more like a 7-litre instead ?!
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The picture of the bus on the 18.280 HOCLR page is actually an SL252 with HICOM bodywork. There was another page (closed) in the HICOM website which showcases the SL252 (with the same picture) and I remember it stated its engine capacity at roughly 7 litres with 250 hp. I'm pretty sure the 18.280 (on the webpage) and the 18.250 (HI's bus) is the same but with different engines only.
Suhirman "The Bus Guide" -
are buses equipped with disc brakes???
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The 18.250 actually uses a Euro III version of the O.405 motor, the OM447hLA. A bit of trivia there for you.Originally posted by hseochin:As mentioned by you, the HI's bodywork used on their MAN 18.250 has the last seat row raised the highest, unlike on the O 405 where the level is roughly same as the row before it. But i notice besides the different seat heights, the floor on the 18.250 is spilt-level with the higher level protruding ~ 1 m from the rear before quite a steep drop to the sloping floor below.
Therefore, upon further thoughts in view of the more updated info @ the MAN website on the 18.280 & the above observations, i'll now put it that both the 18.280 & 18.250 use a similar citybus chassi & dashboard but with the 18.250 using the older 12-litre engine but vertically mounted instead of horizontally as on the O 405 & SL 252.
My feedback on my earlier posts did not take notice of the high spilt-level floor near the extreme rear. If there's no such spilt-floor there then with only the raised last seat row, then maybe the engine used could be the smaller 7-litre instead with vertical mounting.
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Originally posted by hseochin:
Upon checking the engineering drawing @ their website, i notice they now use the same citybus dashboard which was used on the SL252 (similar as on O 405) on the 18.280 as well !
But i sense something's not quite 'right' in that they pass off the 18.280 shown in the website photo as 'chassis' only because the bodywork certainly does appear to me to be of 'sufficient' quality in design & finish to pass off as original MAN citybus body instead !?! The 'themes' in the styling is certainly consistent with MAN integrally constructed CBU OEM bodywork which 'flows smoothly' from their bus to coach to truck product lines, i observe. Most unlikely therefore they should say it's 'chassi' only as such ? Maybe the body shown only used as 'model' for illustration purposes ?? As such i find it somewhat confusing because looking @ the complete bus purely on looks it would likely be though to be a SL252 or SL262 instead ?!?
In conclusion, i'll say that what's currently shown @ the MAN website is probably only their current product line-up for the Malaysian market i.e. they don't show the older models like those SL252 used by Intrakota & these are the ones my 'engine perception' instincts (based on perceived levels of 'soildness' & 'sound power') tells me that the 12-litre was ever used on their citybus model like the SL252 & in view of the larger physical dimensions of a 12-litre (compared to say a much smaller 7-litre unit) it's most certain in the SL252 that the 12-litre engine was horizontally mounted like on O 405. If it's a coach body then maybe they'll consider vertical mounting as well in view of the lesser need to ensure a low floor level compared to in the case for a citybus body.
I note there's no 18.250 mentioned @ the MAN website, so that'll mean one can't be too sure yet that the engine on the 18.250 is vertically mounted ??
Why i don't think the engine is vertical is because in order for it to be vertically mounted onto a citybus body (with the emphasis on as low as possible as floor height) the engine would have to a 'small' cc engine (like 7-litre instead of a much bigger 12-litre unit) so that the longitudinal protrusion is not too 'long' that they need to raise the rear section of the body too high & long. If the 18.250 uses the 7-litre engine then possible it's vertically mounted since the protrusion into the body is minimal. BUT having actually 'heard' the 18.250 on my rides taken, the sound characteristics simply tell me the engine used cannot be as small as 7-litre, which means to me the next larger known engine they use is the older noisier 12-litre unit, which for citybus body mounting would most certainly have to be horizontally mounted.
So, you could be right that the 18.250 has vertically mounted engine but i think the best way to be sure is to flip open the bonnet to find out...but for the reasons mentioned above, i'm still doubtful.
As for the MAN models used in HI's fleet, assuming they use only the current models available on CW2, i then expect it to be 18.313 instead of 18.280, as earlier though, unless MAN offers 2 versions of the 18.280 i.e. citybus & coach versions ?? But if it's the 18.313 the engine doesn't sound like a MAN 12-litre engine to me, more like a 7-litre instead ?!
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The picture of the bus on the 18.280 HOCLR page is actually an SL252 with HICOM bodywork. There was another page (closed) in the HICOM website which showcases the SL252 (with the same picture) and I remember it stated its engine capacity at roughly 7 litres with 250 hp. I'm pretty sure the 18.280 (on the webpage) and the 18.250 (HI's bus) is the same but with different engines only.
Suhirman "The Bus Guide" -
Talk about the VO3X becoming more silent on expressways, tamago, I took 9638C and hadda seat at the bench behind rectangular desto. As the bus sped up to 65km/h, I watch the rpm meter rise almost beyond the green zone, and then.......the rpm actually started falling to the centre of the green zone as the bus increased speed some more! It was unnerving, I thought the bus was going to shift back to 3rd gear or something.
PS: The BC bo chap, climbing up the hill, he step on accelerator lightly and the bus actually stayed in 1st gear until about 30km/h. Hazard lights actually came on, as the rpm meter went beyond the green zone! -
Its because of gear change... if RPM stays bus engine dies...Originally posted by SBS1908B:Talk about the VO3X becoming more silent on expressways, tamago, I took 9638C and hadda seat at the bench behind rectangular desto. As the bus sped up to 65km/h, I watch the rpm meter rise almost beyond the green zone, and then.......the rpm actually started falling to the centre of the green zone as the bus increased speed some more! It was unnerving, I thought the bus was going to shift back to 3rd gear or something.
PS: The BC bo chap, climbing up the hill, he step on accelerator lightly and the bus actually stayed in 1st gear until about 30km/h. Hazard lights actually came on, as the rpm meter went beyond the green zone! -
Care to back that point up, please?Originally posted by SBS9828X:Its because of gear change... if RPM stays bus engine dies... -
From noting the engine sound characteristics, i'm quite sure that cannot be so.
Instead, from those used by HI on CW1 etc., they're noisy enough (noisier than OM 447 hLA on O 405) for me to consider them as older generation engines not more than Euro-2 levels instead. I don't think there's any Euro-3 version of the OM 447 hLA since there's a Euro-3 version of the successor engine to the OM 447 hLA, the OM 457 hLA. Even some O 500 models in chassi-form from Brazil use the newer Euro-3 OM 457 hLA.Originally posted by Windy_hates_B10TLs:The 18.250 actually uses a Euro III version of the O.405 motor, the OM447hLA. A bit of trivia there for you. -
The newer Volvo citybus chassi used in Singapore should have front disc brakes.
The new M-B O 500's like those used in Malaysia by HI can be opted with all round disc brakes.
But i'll say under local operating conditions, even a bus/coach with all round drum brakes are more than adequete. Maybe unless if they driven to Genting or other more extreme envirnoments.Originally posted by SBS9828X:are buses equipped with disc brakes??? -
HseoChin,Is the MB Conecto H Using the OM 457 hLA?BTW,Are there any Conecto Articulate buses cause i saw a picture of an Portugal buses ststing it's the Conecto G busesOriginally posted by hseochin:From noting the engine sound characteristics, i'm quite sure that cannot be so.
Instead, from those used by HI on CW1 etc., they're noisy enough (noisier than OM 447 hLA on O 405) for me to consider them as older generation engines not more than Euro-2 levels instead. I don't think there's any Euro-3 version of the OM 447 hLA since there's a Euro-3 version of the successor engine to the OM 447 hLA, the OM 457 hLA. Even some O 500 models in chassi-form from Brazil use the newer Euro-3 OM 457 hLA.
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the part wer engine might die? that one not too sure but about the rpm meter going back to the centre as it increase speed, it shud be changing of gears lah... he also stated the bus was not noisy...Originally posted by Windy_hates_B10TLs:Care to back that point up, please? -
hseochin,Originally posted by hseochin:From noting the engine sound characteristics, i'm quite sure that cannot be so.
Instead, from those used by HI on CW1 etc., they're noisy enough (noisier than OM 447 hLA on O 405) for me to consider them as older generation engines not more than Euro-2 levels instead. I don't think there's any Euro-3 version of the OM 447 hLA since there's a Euro-3 version of the successor engine to the OM 447 hLA, the OM 457 hLA. Even some O 500 models in chassi-form from Brazil use the newer Euro-3 OM 457 hLA.
It is the same engine!!! Different manifolds, components, engine management system, and muffler systems (to meet emissions standards) make it sound different. Have you noticed how the O.405G doesn't sound as throaty as the Hispano O.405s, which in turn sound different again to the SBST O.405s... the engine block is the same. -
The bus would be noisy because of the radiator. I notice that most tachometers are faulty in the SBST fleet, so it may just be a faulty tachometer, more than anything.Originally posted by SBS9828X:the part wer engine might die? that one not too sure but about the rpm meter going back to the centre as it increase speed, it shud be changing of gears lah... he also stated the bus was not noisy... -
Effective retarders, like the Telma retarders used by ZF also help and reduce driver fatigue. Unfortunately, Allison gearboxes do not always come with retarders, and Voith retarders are a tad ineffective.Originally posted by hseochin:The newer Volvo citybus chassi used in Singapore should have front disc brakes.
The new M-B O 500's like those used in Malaysia by HI can be opted with all round disc brakes.
But i'll say under local operating conditions, even a bus/coach with all round drum brakes are more than adequete. Maybe unless if they driven to Genting or other more extreme envirnoments. -
i din know such small things make the bus sound different...Originally posted by Windy_hates_B10TLs:hseochin,
It is the same engine!!! Different manifolds, components, engine management system, and muffler systems (to meet emissions standards) make it sound different. Have you noticed how the O.405G doesn't sound as throaty as the Hispano O.405s, which in turn sound different again to the SBST O.405s... the engine block is the same. -
Around wer? Or u mean disc brakes got other shape?Originally posted by hseochin:The newer Volvo citybus chassi used in Singapore should have front disc brakes.
The new M-B O 500's like those used in Malaysia by HI can be opted with all round disc brakes.
But i'll say under local operating conditions, even a bus/coach with all round drum brakes are more than adequete. Maybe unless if they driven to Genting or other more extreme envirnoments. -
He meant disc brakes on all four wheels. Not odd shaped ones. Think.Originally posted by SBS9828X:Around wer? Or u mean disc brakes got other shape? -
M-B Conecto H uses OM 457 hLA Euro-3 version.
Not sure if there's any articulated version as almost all the articulated buses presently in production i know of tend to have only 3 steps or less for citybus use only.
Conecto H, i consider it as the replacement model for the O 407 & having 4 steps i consider it more as an intercity bus (like for SGP to JB express use) instead of a citybus which nowadays tend to have far fewer or just 1 step.
Interesting to note the dashboard instrumentation was derived from the O 404 coach, which doesn't look as modern & high-tech as those on the O 500 R's used by Handal Indah's JB-KL service though.Originally posted by carbikebus:HseoChin,Is the MB Conecto H Using the OM 457 hLA?BTW,Are there any Conecto Articulate buses cause i saw a picture of an Portugal buses ststing it's the Conecto G buses -
Yes, i meant disc brakes on all wheels around the vehicle, not just on the front axle. I notice initially over 13 years ago all round disc brakes tend to be offered as standard feature only on the higher end models of coaches, but of late it seems more models down the line including citybuses are getting them as standard.
I don't know of any brake discs which come in shapes other than round ?!Originally posted by Windy_hates_B10TLs:He meant disc brakes on all four wheels. Not odd shaped ones. Think. -
The engine block may be the same, which won't be surprising to me in view of the almost identical cc rating !
But, in the context of what you wrote, you said MAN uses OM 447 hLA in Euro-3 form on the MAN 18.250 ?? So that'll mean to me that OM 447 hLA (in it's 'standard' configuration or feature set etc.) is used in entirety on the MAN, which i sense cannot be too likely @ all. More likely M-B & MAN may share the same engine block BUT the final feature set comprising of the hardware & software aspects of the engine system & peripheral device connections would tend to be different, to cater to the different design priorties & preferences of each marque, thereby resulting in overall different engines from the packaging & perhaps even marketing point of view.
The later versions of the O 405 (like those used by TransitLink & SMRT-TIBS)
do sound different from the earlier versions used by SBST, with the exception perhaps of 1 unit (SBS 161) on SBST's fleet. The later versions of the O 405 G used here are expected to be Euro-2 complaint with charge-cooling i.e. OM 447 hLA, instead of the OM 447 hA & OM 447 h among the [rigid] O 405 fleet in earlier versions here. Of course different exhaust perpheral fixtures can produce very different 'notes' from the engine ! Not only on buses, but also on trucks, cars & motorcycles as well.Originally posted by Windy_hates_B10TLs:hseochin,
It is the same engine!!! Different manifolds, components, engine management system, and muffler systems (to meet emissions standards) make it sound different. Have you noticed how the O.405G doesn't sound as throaty as the Hispano O.405s, which in turn sound different again to the SBST O.405s... the engine block is the same. -
Ohh kk... wasnt really me wen i replied... it was a luxury them har. So wats the difference between drum and disc? Most are now equipped with them.Originally posted by hseochin:Yes, i meant disc brakes on all wheels around the vehicle, not just on the front axle. I notice initially over 13 years ago all round disc brakes tend to be offered as standard feature only on the higher end models of coaches, but of late it seems more models down the line including citybuses are getting them as standard.
I don't know of any brake discs which come in shapes other than round ?! -
Can any kind soul tell me more about Scania CRBs technical stuff? I'm kinda impressed by the silent engine and the quick acceleration. Scanias CRBs are still strong despite it's old age. Dennis Lances comes close to them when it comes to performance. Scania CRB's engine kinda futuristic when they were first built, right? What's the diff btwn Scania CRB and CRL?
Thanks
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So the B12MA did have 3 steps which is similiar to the B10Ms here?Are there any low steps(3 or less) Merc articulate currently?ThanksOriginally posted by hseochin:M-B Conecto H uses OM 457 hLA Euro-3 version.
Not sure if there's any articulated version as almost all the articulated buses presently in production i know of tend to have only 3 steps or less for citybus use only.
Conecto H, i consider it as the replacement model for the O 407 & having 4 steps i consider it more as an intercity bus (like for SGP to JB express use) instead of a citybus which nowadays tend to have far fewer or just 1 step.
Interesting to note the dashboard instrumentation was derived from the O 404 coach, which doesn't look as modern & high-tech as those on the O 500 R's used by Handal Indah's JB-KL service though.
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Chassis make: Scania N113CRBOriginally posted by cool_elf:Can any kind soul tell me more about Scania CRBs technical stuff? I'm kinda impressed by the silent engine and the quick acceleration. Scanias CRBs are still strong despite it's old age. Dennis Lances comes close to them when it comes to performance. Scania CRB's engine kinda futuristic when they were first built, right? What's the diff btwn Scania CRB and CRL?
Thanks
Engine: Scania DSC1104, 11 021 cc, 254 bhp, 6-cylinder turbocharged diesel, rear mounted in a vertical-transverse position.
Transmission: Fitted with Scania GAV781 / GV680 gearbox when new. Now fitted with Voith unit. Both gearboxes fully automatic.
Body make: Walter Alexander, PS type
Layout: 51 seating + 35 standing
Date introduced: 1989-90
Total (when new): 50 air-con, 150 natural ventilation
SBS numbers: SBS 31-80 (aircon), SBS 3573-3722
The CRL has a lower floor height, making it possible to have a zero-step entrance. -
so its not zero-step... now i understand...Originally posted by The_Bus_Guide:The CRL has a lower floor height, making it possible to have a zero-step entrance.