CW3: Jurong East Int - Larkin/Kota Raya II Ter
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Well majority passengers don't heck care whatever model they deployed as long there are buses running around,Air-Conditioned and most important is the Driver's customer service skills(Bonus)Originally posted by hseochin:To me, as long as route 160 still uses those comparatively lousy Volvo B10M Mk3's only, then i'll gladly pay almost any premium to take HI's newer & better MAN's or more preferably, their new generation air-suspended charged-cooled M-B's, which no operator it seems in Singapore has yet upgraded to in volume !
It's not head-on competition this time (unlike CW2 & SJE) but definitely still very close competition i'll say. HI's advantage over 160 is the more door-step like connection between Jurong East & highly populated areas in Skudai.
Of course those in greater hurry to reach Kota Raya from Jurong East & don't mind putting up with a lousier class of ride would stick to 160, so therefore the competition is not fully head-on this time. If O 405's were used in 160, then the 'gap' narrows somewhat, of course.
Period! -
I do observe many passengers nowadays do pay attention to the model of vehicle, just that they don't have the 'know-how' to articulate their preferences. I'll say they appear to not care what model quite simply because
they know for certain routes e.g. only certain models are allocated to serve that route so choices can be limited to them & they end up blindly taking what comes along !
But when you have a situation (like SJE & CW2) where much is the same & only the models deployed differ, then i've consistently observed that there's quite some people who would stay behind & let others behind the queue board 1st & they patiently wait for the next bus who turns out to be the preferred model !
I myself of course also do that..as long as i'm not in too much hurry & can wait a little more if i see e.g. the OH 1627 L coming in a distance behind & just let the MAN go !
As the population living standards & individual material expectations rises (which would also have to include the quality of buses they use & by which the models tend to be quite an accurate gauge as such !) i do believe a growing silent majority in Singapore (maybe not yet in Malaysia) do pay attention to the bus model they use, just that there may be limited avenues for them to select which they prefer so they just put up with whatever that's there only !
Similar observation in taxis, i note !!
I've seen (more than a few times) people who would ignore which taxi is in front of a taxi queue & prefer to take their prefered taxi behind the queue or another who just happen to drive by ! Not every time you'll meet up with a preferred driver & the vehicles are all air-conditioned nowadays (although many other details differ which comes about from the differences in the vehicle) so it boils down largely to the difference in model/make of vehicle which causes the commutor to prefer 1 over another.
As for driver's customer service quality, of course that's important.
But from using public buses in Singapore for many years, i don't find many drivers more outstanding than the rest so as a commutor, the driver is just another 'item' like air-con whereby people take air-con over non air-con etc.
Most drivers seem the 'same' & they should be as otherwise they wouldn't have been hired if they don't make the grade to be driver !
Talking about air-con, there's time (during night) where people can actually prefer non air-con to aircon.Originally posted by carbikebus:Well majority passengers don't heck care whatever model they deployed as long there are buses running around,Air-Conditioned and most important is the Driver's customer service skills(Bonus) Period! -
Some MK3 can chiong like siao
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I suppose they can go to ~ 85 km/h if 'pushed'.
But those sitting behind won't have a very comfortable ride, mainly due to the relatively poor suspension ride comfort which gives quite sharp spine jarring 'pokes' from one's backside even when going over rough patches of roads with potholes @ much slower speeds ! Among SBST, TIBS, SJE & HI, i can't think of another model of bus presently in service with ride as lousy as the B10M (all Mks.) ! I notice (among the B10M's only) the Mk2 is slightly more comfortable with less such hard shocks even @ the extreme rear. I suspect SBST knows about their poor ride & thus i've observed a few Mk4 with much 'softer' suspension BUT these few are grossly overdone, unfortunately. I can sense the efforts made to try to emulate the standard on the O 405 but have to conclude so far it's an 'overkill' because whenever it bounces up it takes too long a time to settle down again i.e. too long to damp !, unlike the O 405 where the damping is so well coordinated that it offers almost just the precise combination of damping efficacy versus the ability to absorb the road shocks !
Those sitting in the middle & front regions of the B10M may not be so prone to such discomfort BUT the drawback here is the relatively noisy & vibrasive engine of the Mk3 which seems only slightly lower in NVH over the Mk2 with the Mk4 the lowest among the B10M's here.
In all the other models of bus used by the above 4 operators the suspension is far more comfortable irrespective of location inside. The most comfortable region being around the front axle region, where the engine is furthest away behind & hence being able to get a quieter less vibrasive more comfortable ride the same time. Also they just as fast if not faster & accelerate quicker too !Originally posted by sbst275:Some MK3 can chiong like siao -
Still, the noise levels in modern rear- or mid-engined buses is lower than their front-engined counterparts. Travelling frequently on the Leyland Vikings (and some Hino AKs) can really make a person deaf because the engine is inside the vehicle and most of the noise is trapped in the passenger cabin.Originally posted by hseochin:In all the other models of bus used by the above 4 operators the suspension is far more comfortable irrespective of location inside. The most comfortable region being around the front axle region, where the engine is furthest away behind & hence being able to get a quieter less vibrasive more comfortable ride the same time. Also they just as fast if not faster & accelerate quicker too ! -
Wow CW3 serves both Larkin and Kota Raya II Ter thats cool.
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Agreed.
But i believe if they make a modern front engined bus with external bonnet (like a car's) with very thick engine bulkhead & full engine encapsulation using modern charged-cooled diesels, then maybe the interior can still be quiet enough to consider as quiet with little vibrations, just like in a modern front engined car.
If there's any dream bus i'll like to build, i'll be something like the M-B O 3500 from 1949 but with modern diesels, transmission & air suspension instead.
The O 3500 has very M-B car-like grand appearance indeed for a bus, simply due to car-like chrome grill with the M-B star standing upright just like on an E or S-Class saloon !
For those who think double-deckers are grand, then this single-decker O 3500 vintage bus is indeed more grand !Originally posted by iveco:Still, the noise levels in modern rear- or mid-engined buses is lower than their front-engined counterparts. Travelling frequently on the Leyland Vikings (and some Hino AKs) can really make a person deaf because the engine is inside the vehicle and most of the noise is trapped in the passenger cabin. -
kota raya terminal no bus wants to go there (JB routes). more like for ppl to transfer to the air asia senai bus.. last time i was on 226, the driver says go to kota raya, but stopped for a long time opp city square.. so i quickly hopped off the bus, as somethnig may be wrong.. lucky.. the bus may not had turned into kota raya..Originally posted by 5454:Wow CW3 serves both Larkin and Kota Raya II Ter thats cool. -
Recently, some buses from the west side also stop opposite City Square, instead of turning into Jalan Ungku Puan.Originally posted by 105090:kota raya terminal no bus wants to go there (JB routes). more like for ppl to transfer to the air asia senai bus.. last time i was on 226, the driver says go to kota raya, but stopped for a long time opp city square.. so i quickly hopped off the bus, as somethnig may be wrong.. lucky.. the bus may not had turned into kota raya..
Buses are required to "queue" along the road side opposite City Square, by order from MBJB, the buses are only allowed to leave once all the services are there. (Sounds a bit confusing and ridiculous, but most bus drivers followed the rule strictly) That's why those buses stopped for a long time opposite City Square. On the other hand, it created heavy congestion along Jalan Wong Ah Fook. -
Route 226 should end in Taman U so from JBCS it goes straight then turns left with brief stop @ Kota Raya before using the old costal road towards Skudai.
I observe it's quite normal they stop outside JBCS for 15 mins or more as likely that's their 'main stop' before looping back to where they started from.
Various other # do the same.Originally posted by 105090:kota raya terminal no bus wants to go there (JB routes). more like for ppl to transfer to the air asia senai bus.. last time i was on 226, the driver says go to kota raya, but stopped for a long time opp city square.. so i quickly hopped off the bus, as somethnig may be wrong.. lucky.. the bus may not had turned into kota raya.. -
Well to each his own brother,Not all humans share the same thinkingOriginally posted by hseochin:Agreed.
But i believe if they make a modern front engined bus with external bonnet (like a car's) with very thick engine bulkhead & full engine encapsulation using modern charged-cooled diesels, then maybe the interior can still be quiet enough to consider as quiet with little vibrations, just like in a modern front engined car.
If there's any dream bus i'll like to build, i'll be something like the M-B O 3500 from 1949 but with modern diesels, transmission & air suspension instead.
The O 3500 has very M-B car-like grand appearance indeed for a bus, simply due to car-like chrome grill with the M-B star standing upright just like on an E or S-Class saloon !
For those who think double-deckers are grand, then this single-decker O 3500 vintage bus is indeed more grand !
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Correct.
That's why i observe the Germans are most through in bus engineering, followed by the Swedes. The French & Italians quite close behind.
The british unfortunately @ the bottom of this list !Originally posted by carbikebus:Well to each his own brother,Not all humans share the same thinking -
In short, MAN & Evobus top the list, followed by Scania & Volvo. Next comes Irisbus (Iveco-Renault) and then Alexander Dennis?Originally posted by hseochin:Correct.
That's why i observe the Germans are most through in bus engineering, followed by the Swedes. The French & Italians quite close behind.
The british unfortunately @ the bottom of this list ! -
In terms of who's largest maker of buses & coaches (including bus-chassi) in the world, based on my last known info from few years ago, expected to be;
#1 position M-B (includes the those other makes under Daimler umbrella with minority contributions like Kassbohrer-Setra & some US brands)
#2 maybe MAN or Volvo ? I know Volvo is a very large heavy PSV maker but still smaller than M-B globally.
#3 Saab-Scania ?
Renault & Iveco don't seem too popular in South-East Asia nowadays.
This 'Alexander Dennis' ? I believe it's 'merger' of Dennis Specialist Vehicles with Walter-Alexander body builders ?? I don't think their products are too fantastic in design innovation value & quality. Volume-wise globally seems very small player as such nowadays especially with the demise of the British colonies like Hong Kong, Macau etc. which sort of 'guaranteed' them loyal patronage in the past because British 'have to' buy back British ?!?Originally posted by iveco:In short, MAN & Evobus top the list, followed by Scania & Volvo. Next comes Irisbus (Iveco-Renault) and then Alexander Dennis? -
from all your post, i see that u really really favour MB alot.....anyway, replying to the last few posts, i think most ppl will choose the bus which look 'nicest', as they tink nice so it looks good, so it looks new, so it is good.
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I won't mind saying openly i do have preference for M-B over most others,
because of it's history, achievements, global ranking in the omnibus industry,
but most importantly to me, all the overall positive experiences i've so far had from using their vehicles over the last 30 years.
I don't 'blindly' select M-B over others though. I do have high regard for certain models from other makes as well.
There's 1 M-B model currently in use here which i honestly have to condemn, so much so i've even communicated my extreme displeasure to the makers in writing & of such to date they've apparently 'taken it all in' & not given any 'rationale' for the existence of that model. I do believe if there's indeed 'no substance' in my feedback they would not likely have 'kept quiet' ! Fortunately the operator only has maybe 3 or 4 of that model in its fleet & i notice that model not very well received in Malaysia as well, say the least !!
The problem with choosing the bus which looks 'nicest' is that it can be very superficial just like judging a book only by its cover !! The bus-chassis is like the pages of literary content inside a book while the cover is like the bus body only ! It's fine if such a 'book cover' & the contents within it are done to the same exacting standards BUT the state of the bus industry here is such that they cut-corners by not sourcing the 'book covers' from the same source as the rest of the contents within it so to an observant mind, the disparity in quality is obvious 'inconsistent' & 'unreliable to accept' !
Take KKKL's coaches e.g. to get some idea of what i mean.
The coachwork in their case can be way above-average in finishing, style
i.e. looks quite nice overall BUT when the vehicle starts moving then you'll sense the negative other side of the vehicle as a whole !
I of course ever selected KKKL as it appeared 'nice' as mentioned above BUT when the journey ended i got off their vehicle with very negative overall impressions largely because of things about it which cannot be seen but sensed instead which turned out most disappointing !
In Singapore currently only TIBS buses (not all but most) are of overall (i.e. chassi & body) of basically acceptable standards to me. As for much of the rest here, only the bus-chassi part is commendable while the body part simply doesn't measure up because the 2 not up to the same standards !!
It appears to me many people in this part of the world have still 'not arrived' to a class which can appreciate & hence go for makes like Setra, Neoplan & of course, the M-B integral class of buses & coaches !!
They still seem stuck in the M-B & various other makes bus-chassis class only !
I envision good long term potential for improvements overhauling such mindsets as such.Originally posted by alex_cai92:from all your post, i see that u really really favour MB alot.....anyway, replying to the last few posts, i think most ppl will choose the bus which look 'nicest', as they tink nice so it looks good, so it looks new, so it is good. -
Like what i did emphasize previously,To Each His Own ,A bus is a bus,It's only a matter of preferences here.
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However, NOT all buses are the same eventhough they are still buses in some very general way of looking @ them. [Same too for cars, vans even trucks besides buses]
Correct is a matter of preferences, in the sense that different preferences (& priorties too i'll add) on the part of the designers resulted in the fact that not all buses that are made are the same.
Even within the same brand, different models can end up being very different in the various parameters of evaluation.Originally posted by carbikebus:Like what i did emphasize previously,To Each His Own ,A bus is a bus,It's only a matter of preferences here. -
True,But ever heard of the greatest engine built,the messier when comes to breakdown.I don't mean to go againts you but IF i'm the director for a public bus companies i will go for the cheaper but reliable buses more and a few top brand buses the second things UNless if i'm operating a sight-seeing coaches comapniesOriginally posted by hseochin:However, NOT all buses are the same eventhough they are still buses in some very general way of looking @ them. [Same too for cars, vans even trucks besides buses]
Correct is a matter of preferences, in the sense that different preferences (& priorties too i'll add) on the part of the designers resulted in the fact that not all buses that are made are the same.
Even within the same brand, different models can end up being very different in the various parameters of evaluation.
Same cases for SBST,They have the cash for purchasing more mercs but to think that the spare parts cost as much as twice than the Volvo fleets.Not to mention when it goes for major overhaul -
What about the case of SMRT Bus? Their fleet is at least three quarters Merc. Won't they have to shell out a lot more than SBST for spares?Originally posted by carbikebus:Same cases for SBST,They have the cash for purchasing more mercs but to think that the spare parts cost as much as twice than the Volvo fleets.Not to mention when it goes for major overhaul -
Well, to start off, this is Singapore not say Malaysia or some other less developed country with plenty of land for many cars & where private cars are cheap & whereby people who don't like the quality of service in the public transport can take the cheap & easy way out & buy their own car !!
That is the situation i'll say in Malaysia but certainly NO longer the case in Singapore ! What does this mean for the future of transport within Singapore ??
To me it means simply that the quality of public transport in Singapore cannot be anything less than 1st class, now & into the future, seriously speaking !
Otherwise, how to best 'compensate' people here for foregoing the benefits of having their own private car & the use of it ?
There's been plenty of talk in recent years about getting more people to use more public transport & less private car transport in Singapore. The key appeal of a private car comprises not just door-step convinence, but also the comfort issue etc. Therefore, to best emulate the private car, the public transport vehicles have to also pay attention to not just reliability, which is 'basic' & 'understood' pre-requisite but also equally important, in today's world & into the future as well, the comfort issue as well !
Gone are the days where only reliability & economy are important & the other issues less important, or worse regarded as 'not important' !
Modern public transport vehicles in a place like Singapore have to score EQUALLY well not just in reliability, but also in the safety, performance & comfort aspects ! No more & certainly no less !! All have become of equal importance.
Therefore only the finest buses & taxis in the world really do deserve a place in Singapore, not only due to the land shortage here but also because only the finest vehicles would best be able to emulate the appeal of a private car !!!!
Which in turn is the best chance of getting more people here to use public transport more & private cars less, if @ all so as to achieve the objectives of reducing dependence on private car usage here due to land constrains.
My stand has always been that the people in Singapore do deserve THE best class of public transport here BUT only pay 'nominal' fares to use them, with the rich Government subsidizing the bulk of the costs ! Therefore the bus operators can then go for the best buses even if it's also the more expensive ones (unfortunately so) & get the Government to help out with part of the costs such that even the toilet cleaner get the chance to ride in a top class bus or taxi & pay not very different fares compared to in a lousier class of vehicle !
This is already happening i observe with the latest taxis here, which i find is a most welcome development. Nowadays here you flag down a taxi on the roadside, you roughly pay similar fares whether you ride in a modern top class taxi or a much lousier model ! In buses here too, i notice a similar situation, although the disparity is less obvious.
So that's the way to go ! One cannot afford to cut any more corners by going for 2nd or 3rd class vehicles anymore here. By the way, where did you get this impression that M-B spare parts cost double that of Volvo's ??!?? Overall i certainly do NOT consider it so, as otherwise the OMV of an M-B bus would also be double that of a Volvo, which cannot be so, for a similar GVW class of model of broadly similar specifications. You may be shocked to note there's even 1 model of M-B 16t GVW bus-chassi with air-suspension & charged-cooled engine in-use here whose OMV is even lower than a Volvo or MAN, being around that of Dennis Lance only !!
Therefore in Singapore, it only makes sense to have as majority the best class of buses anywhere, with a smaller number of the cheaper & not so good models to serve as some yardstick of comparison & also in case 1 make goes on strike etc., then there's 1 or 2 other makes to fall back on. Issues like spare parts costs & servicing costs etc. would have to take a backseat with the main priority increasing being doing the maximum possible (almost irregardless of cost !) to reduce the dependency on the private car here for as many people as possible.Originally posted by carbikebus:True,But ever heard of the greatest engine built,the messier when comes to breakdown.I don't mean to go againts you but IF i'm the director for a public bus companies i will go for the cheaper but reliable buses more and a few top brand buses the second things UNless if i'm operating a sight-seeing coaches comapnies
Same cases for SBST,They have the cash for purchasing more mercs but to think that the spare parts cost as much as twice than the Volvo fleets.Not to mention when it goes for major overhaul -
I do NOT think so. Being the world's largest bus makers, M-B would have large economies of scale in production & better bargaining potential i'll say in securing competitively attractive prices for it's spares.
M-B spare parts need NOT automatically be more expensive than others.
You go to say Waterloo Centre & check out some M-B parts prices & compare it to that of other premium makes. Some parts costs more but overall the cost differential cannot be too great. That is myth i'll add.Originally posted by iveco:What about the case of SMRT Bus? Their fleet is at least three quarters Merc. Won't they have to shell out a lot more than SBST for spares? -
Hmm.. NST BT had some mentioning of this sv
But, something is wrong, and again, the proud Malaysian attitude... Saying HI only operator of SG - JB bus rt, when SBS has been running for 32 yrs -
Depends whether it is Asian Merc or Europe Merc.Also some Volvos parts are not that cheap either.It is up to Delgro to decide it.If i have a choice then i would suggest to have equally amounts of brands.Originally posted by hseochin:I do NOT think so. Being the world's largest bus makers, M-B would have large economies of scale in production & better bargaining potential i'll say in securing competitively attractive prices for it's spares.
M-B spare parts need NOT automatically be more expensive than others.
You go to say Waterloo Centre & check out some M-B parts prices & compare it to that of other premium makes. Some parts costs more but overall the cost differential cannot be too great. That is myth i'll add. -
This is the replies from most senior techs and SBST Officials.Yup i knew this is Singapore but the motto is as long the interior are clean,Fine then its fine.There's no way you can restrict or force car owners to take public transport.It's their choices.As this is a very small country the only option that Govt can raises the ERP/Parking/COE Charges.In future the situation will be>Cheaper car prices but maximum road/Parking charges.IMO,Even If they bring a world-Class buses for the public,But if peoples still prefer cars then the situation are still the same right?MY Only hopes that both operators buy more stepless buses,Convienance for the elderly/Pregnant/ChildrensOriginally posted by hseochin:Well, to start off, this is Singapore not say Malaysia or some other less developed country with plenty of land for many cars & where private cars are cheap & whereby people who don't like the quality of service in the public transport can take the cheap & easy way out & buy their own car !!
That is the situation i'll say in Malaysia but certainly NO longer the case in Singapore ! What does this mean for the future of transport within Singapore ??
To me it means simply that the quality of public transport in Singapore cannot be anything less than 1st class, now & into the future, seriously speaking !
Otherwise, how to best 'compensate' people here for foregoing the benefits of having their own private car & the use of it ?
There's been plenty of talk in recent years about getting more people to use more public transport & less private car transport in Singapore. The key appeal of a private car comprises not just door-step convinence, but also the comfort issue etc. Therefore, to best emulate the private car, the public transport vehicles have to also pay attention to not just reliability, which is 'basic' & 'understood' pre-requisite but also equally important, in today's world & into the future as well, the comfort issue as well !
Gone are the days where only reliability & economy are important & the other issues less important, or worse regarded as 'not important' !
Modern public transport vehicles in a place like Singapore have to score EQUALLY well not just in reliability, but also in the safety, performance & comfort aspects ! No more & certainly no less !! All have become of equal importance.
Therefore only the finest buses & taxis in the world really do deserve a place in Singapore, not only due to the land shortage here but also because only the finest vehicles would best be able to emulate the appeal of a private car !!!!
Which in turn is the best chance of getting more people here to use public transport more & private cars less, if @ all so as to achieve the objectives of reducing dependence on private car usage here due to land constrains.
My stand has always been that the people in Singapore do deserve THE best class of public transport here BUT only pay 'nominal' fares to use them, with the rich Government subsidizing the bulk of the costs ! Therefore the bus operators can then go for the best buses even if it's also the more expensive ones (unfortunately so) & get the Government to help out with part of the costs such that even the toilet cleaner get the chance to ride in a top class bus or taxi & pay not very different fares compared to in a lousier class of vehicle !
This is already happening i observe with the latest taxis here, which i find is a most welcome development. Nowadays here you flag down a taxi on the roadside, you roughly pay similar fares whether you ride in a modern top class taxi or a much lousier model ! In buses here too, i notice a similar situation, although the disparity is less obvious.
So that's the way to go ! One cannot afford to cut any more corners by going for 2nd or 3rd class vehicles anymore here. By the way, where did you get this impression that M-B spare parts cost double that of Volvo's ??!?? Overall i certainly do NOT consider it so, as otherwise the OMV of an M-B bus would also be double that of a Volvo, which cannot be so, for a similar GVW class of model of broadly similar specifications. You may be shocked to note there's even 1 model of M-B 16t GVW bus-chassi with air-suspension & charged-cooled engine in-use here whose OMV is even lower than a Volvo or MAN, being around that of Dennis Lance only !!
Therefore in Singapore, it only makes sense to have as majority the best class of buses anywhere, with a smaller number of the cheaper & not so good models to serve as some yardstick of comparison & also in case 1 make goes on strike etc., then there's 1 or 2 other makes to fall back on. Issues like spare parts costs & servicing costs etc. would have to take a backseat with the main priority increasing being doing the maximum possible (almost irregardless of cost !) to reduce the dependency on the private car here for as many people as possible.
IMO i think there will be some Merc in SBST fleets,Its a matter of time only.
BTW,Hseochin i do have relatives & Friends working as Officers & Technicians at Various Depots including SMRTB ones.It's only a matter of privacy.