Volvo B10BLE (CNG)
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That's because I see no point contributing, Darryl. You will only see recognition from your own people and help yourselves.Originally posted by SBS9818A:He's contributed far more than you ever have, Alan.
I am in fact glad that I've learnt my lesson and not step into your pithole again. -
MS, you're probably not understanding what I was trying to explain above. Look at Voith's specifications. They claim they can replace the first two gears (including torque converter lock-ups) of a "standard" (read: ZF) transmission with a longer first gear. The first gear of a Voith D864.3 is a constant 5.05:1.
Also note the huge difference between the first and second gear ratios of a Voith transmission. First gear on a D864.3 is 5.05:1, compared with 1.36:1 in second. This in in my opinion too big a difference and a cause of inefficiencies.
A bus with a Voith transmission will almost always have less acceleration than an equivalent bus with a ZF transmission. Examples I have in mind are the M.A.N. SL 202 buses in Sydney and Adelaide (Australia) and Mercedes-Benz O 405/O 405 NHs. The SL 202s fitted with Voiths also seem to have consistantly more worn out engines. The Mercedes-Benz O 405 NHs clearly demonstrate the differences - the Voith units fitted with a higher 5.4:1 diff to compensate for the lack of accelerating power (compared with 4.8:1 for the ZF units) - the only way to make the Voith units perform the same as the ZF units.
Regards,
Dave[/b] -
sian, one from SBST, one from Australia. >____<
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Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:
Hi Dave,
[b]MS, you're probably not understanding what I was trying to explain above. Look at Voith's specifications. They claim they can replace the first two gears (including torque converter lock-ups) of a "standard" (read: ZF) transmission with a longer first gear. The first gear of a Voith D864.3 is a constant 5.05:1.
Also note the huge difference between the first and second gear ratios of a Voith transmission. First gear on a D864.3 is 5.05:1, compared with 1.36:1 in second. This in in my opinion too big a difference and a cause of inefficiencies.
A bus with a Voith transmission will almost always have less acceleration than an equivalent bus with a ZF transmission. Examples I have in mind are the M.A.N. SL 202 buses in Sydney and Adelaide (Australia) and Mercedes-Benz O 405/O 405 NHs. The SL 202s fitted with Voiths also seem to have consistantly more worn out engines. The Mercedes-Benz O 405 NHs clearly demonstrate the differences - the Voith units fitted with a higher 5.4:1 diff to compensate for the lack of accelerating power (compared with 4.8:1 for the ZF units) - the only way to make the Voith units perform the same as the ZF units.
Regards,
Dave[/b][/b]
I have previously explained in BIF the reason why ZF is unable to last as long as Voith. It is due to the valve body design. I have also enclosed a picture of it. With a massive fleet, the difference in maintenance cost will be very visible. This is undisputed and you have no case against this fact.
Having a powerful first gear at about gear ratio of 6, helps to move the vehicle more effectively especially when with load. Because the bus travels with passenger load most of the time.
I have previously said that ZF has a flater gear ratio. But it does not offer the kind of boost required for ferrying the mass of the people. Even though the 2nd gear of the Voith gearbox is looks weak. But think back on practical means. With a weaker first gear ratio, the driver will have to accelerate more in order to achieve the correct speed to activate the solenoid to start to shift to 2nd gear. Voith on the other hand has a shorter first gear which 2nd gear kicks in quicker than ZF. The momentum of the vehicle has already reach the optimum and thus cruising off is no issue at all. Therefore if 2 same engines are used. Before the ZF can catch up at the 2nd gear, the Voith has already moved off and the 2nd gear with a lower gear ratio number meaning as you can understand higher speed, ZF will have to accelerate more to catch up. Not talking about the load yet.
In order for you to understand, you need to use a ZF mobidig and Voith gearbox tester, plug into the ECU of the bus and get someone to drive normally while you monitor the gear changes and brake stages then you will be able to understand. It is very hard for me to explain via words.
Statistically proven that ZF costs a lot more in maintaining the gearboxes as it breaks down more than the Voith. I'm sorry as the actual details are truely classified. I need to protect both the interests of my gearbox suppliers financially. Mainly due to the valve body design. The so called ZF ecomat transmission is unable to overcome the shortcoming of the valve body design to achieve the cost savings demands of the company. Voith on the other hand due to a superior design is able to. The valve body you see in BIH I'll post it here again.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n298/arakyo/valvebody.jpg
This valve body being the 2nd brain of the gearbox is the executor part while the ECU is the planner part. A very critical portion of the gearbox installed underneath the gearbox assy. It is totally submerged into hot ATF while operating. Hence exposed to the conditions in the gearbox. Notice that they are merely electrical items. How long do you think it can last against the valve body of the Voith transmission which is installed externally? Stats have already shown all these years.
If I do not have ground experience, then I will be thinking like you. I see that you learnt most of your knowledge via reading. Get into some real action and maintain a fleet. Understand the perspective with a macro view and start maintaining the gearbox both technically hands on and follow up statiscally. Then it will be beneficial to your knowledge. The textbook only helps to explain theoretically on the issue on their own point of view. Actual situation requires a hands on experience coupled with theory knowledge in order to find out the truth on which gearbox actually reaps in more savings and give enough power. Also you need to differentiate between lock up and torque converter clearly as they are totally different items which have different uses. Otherwise you're confusing the readers here. -
Don't worry. This is a healthy discussion. No hard feelings at all.Originally posted by ^tamago^:sian, one from SBST, one from Australia. >____<
Its not a matter of where we come from but what we do.
I'm not against using ZF or against supporting ZF but I just want to bring out the facts between the myths between these two gearboxes. The origin of the notes I got are from the manufacturers themselves so it is the most accurate.
But I can reveal that ZF lasts about 3 years. Some even gone in less than 2 years.
But Voith with the same maintainance team can last 5 years. There're some even 7 years. That's why the great difference prompted a lot of issues. -
Wah. U know so much man! I really envy you! I know nuts, and ended up spouting nonsense here.Originally posted by MS:Don't worry. This is a healthy discussion. No hard feelings at all.
Its not a matter of where we come from but what we do.
I'm not against using ZF or against supporting ZF but I just want to bring out the facts between the myths between these two gearboxes. The origin of the notes I got are from the manufacturers themselves so it is the most accurate.
But I can reveal that ZF lasts about 3 years. Some even gone in less than 2 years.
But Voith with the same maintainance team can last 5 years. There're some even 7 years. That's why the great difference prompted a lot of issues.
But erh, you mentioned that Voith gearboxes lasts longer and ZF has a shorter lifespan. In ZF, this is compensated by having a longer engine lifespan. In short Voith has a longer lifespan, but the engine it is coupled to has a shorter lifespan. In ZF, it has a shorter lifespan, but engine lifespan is longer. Therefore which ever gearboxes u use, its going to be the same. Both requires major overhaul if something breaks down. In Voith, engine requires more overhauling. In ZF, gearbox requires more overhauling. Therefore, whether if its ZF or Voith, the maintainance cost is going to be about the same, unless engine overhauling is more expensive or vice versa, as said by MS, who said that ZFs cost more to operate.
Btw, MS, did the cost of maintaining of the gearboxes that u mentioned earlier on cover the cost of overhauling of the engines due to extensive wear?
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OMG! How many people did you need? 20?Originally posted by MS:eh... no. it's pushed down manually. its too dangerous to reverse drive down.
Don't Voith buses hold the first gear until very high and then shift later?Originally posted by MS:Voith on the other hand has a shorter first gear which 2nd gear kicks in quicker than ZF.
Just anotehr question, not tryign to argue but if it's statsically proven that ZF are lousier and cost more to maintain, why are SBST still buying buses with ZFs, like most of the B9s? -
haha.. the whole workshop. Whatever men we can activate. Some may end up looking but there are always opporunities. One takes a break the the other comes and push.Originally posted by stooper:Don't Voith buses hold the first gear until very high and then shift later?
Just anotehr question, not tryign to argue but if it's statsically proven that ZF are lousier and cost more to maintain, why are SBST still buying buses with ZFs, like most of the B9s?
As for why still buy ZF? haha. I also want to know. But many people in the workshop feels that's a wrong decision made. I can only reveal that many purchasing are done by people who have no technical knowledge or little knowledge. This is the furthest I can reveal. The actual purchasing agenda is classified.
Those info which I revealed abt ZF and Voith are merely open info which anyone in the world can come to know. But still if I have a choice, I'd prefer to have only Mercedes Benz. -
Hey i've asked some HGDEP tech why Tridents never use ZF their replies are as same as you,Quite "Leceh" to maintain.You'll West side all "Pakat" huh?Originally posted by MS:haha.. the whole workshop. Whatever men we can activate. Some may end up looking but there are always opporunities. One takes a break the the other comes and push.
As for why still buy ZF? haha. I also want to know. But many people in the workshop feels that's a wrong decision made. I can only reveal that many purchasing are done by people who have no technical knowledge or little knowledge. This is the furthest I can reveal. The actual purchasing agenda is classified.
Those info which I revealed abt ZF and Voith are merely open info which anyone in the world can come to know. But still if I have a choice, I'd prefer to have only Mercedes Benz. -
Hi guys!
Heres two videos, one for ZF lovers, one for Voith lovers. You can clearly tell that A Voith makes the engine runs at a higher RPM as compared with ZF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-19lrIdZdo For ZF lovers (PS: Gearbox locks-up at second gear. Actually this bus sounds like the box bendy instead of a rigid!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqnJzYjCm2Y For Voith lovers (For Voith lovers, you defintely love this! Its whistle sound is DAMN loud!) -
SBS1956L (even though it is ZF) also make a whistle soundOriginally posted by Scania N113CRB luver:Hi guys!
Heres two videos, one for ZF lovers, one for Voith lovers. You can clearly tell that A Voith makes the engine runs at a higher RPM as compared with ZF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-19lrIdZdo For ZF lovers (PS: Gearbox locks-up at second gear. Actually this bus sounds like the box bendy instead of a rigid!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqnJzYjCm2Y For Voith lovers (For Voith lovers, you defintely love this! Its whistle sound is DAMN loud!) -
seen the video.Originally posted by Scania N113CRB luver:Hi guys!
Heres two videos, one for ZF lovers, one for Voith lovers. You can clearly tell that A Voith makes the engine runs at a higher RPM as compared with ZF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-19lrIdZdo For ZF lovers (PS: Gearbox locks-up at second gear. Actually this bus sounds like the box bendy instead of a rigid!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqnJzYjCm2Y For Voith lovers (For Voith lovers, you defintely love this! Its whistle sound is DAMN loud!) why whould you think the noise is from gearbox?If I say its a combination of all rotating components would you believe?
there're a lot of myths going around. really. Don't assume. Ig you go underneath the bus with engine running and listen. Then while the bus is on the dyno go outside and listen also. You'll have a different view. -
So you're saying the video starts when the bus is already in its 2nd gear?Originally posted by Scania N113CRB luver:Hi guys!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-19lrIdZdo For ZF lovers (PS: Gearbox locks-up at second gear. Actually this bus sounds like the box bendy instead of a rigid!) -
Are you saying it is engine sound?Originally posted by MS:seen the video. why whould you think the noise is from gearbox?If I say its a combination of all rotating components would you believe?
there're a lot of myths going around. really. Don't assume. Ig you go underneath the bus with engine running and listen. Then while the bus is on the dyno go outside and listen also. You'll have a different view. -
Ya at the start of the video, the bus is already in the second gear.Originally posted by stooper:So you're saying the video starts when the bus is already in its 2nd gear?
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The first one sounds little bit like a MAN SL200 when acclerating.Originally posted by Scania N113CRB luver:Hi guys!
Heres two videos, one for ZF lovers, one for Voith lovers. You can clearly tell that A Voith makes the engine runs at a higher RPM as compared with ZF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-19lrIdZdo For ZF lovers (PS: Gearbox locks-up at second gear. Actually this bus sounds like the box bendy instead of a rigid!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqnJzYjCm2Y For Voith lovers (For Voith lovers, you defintely love this! Its whistle sound is DAMN loud!) -
u ought to learn that buses have similarities globally.Originally posted by ^tamago^:sian, one from SBST, one from Australia. >____<
for example, a MAN is a MAn is a MAn in hong kong, Ll or singapore. the dash configuration and designs r similar. always mercedes like looking. thats how one mnges to identify buses let alone look at the VIN.
in our case,
the Zf gearbox in Singapore fitted on whatever model u got here will have the same gear ratios if fitted on a similair model overseas. one example i cna think of is the VSO SBS9888Y compared to hong Kongs VSO. -
Yea! MAN is always Mercedes like looking, especially the front axles! Look at the front axles and compare it with the O.405s, they are very similar.Originally posted by ZYX2005:u ought to learn that buses have similarities globally.
for example, a MAN is a MAn is a MAn in hong kong, Ll or singapore. the dash configuration and designs r similar. always mercedes like looking. thats how one mnges to identify buses let alone look at the VIN.
Wonder why MAN looks so similar to Mercs? 
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then how do people come to different conclusions? is it necessary that people must think like how you think?Originally posted by ZYX2005:u ought to learn that buses have similarities globally.
for example, a MAN is a MAn is a MAn in hong kong, Ll or singapore. the dash configuration and designs r similar. always mercedes like looking. thats how one mnges to identify buses let alone look at the VIN.
in our case,
the Zf gearbox in Singapore fitted on whatever model u got here will have the same gear ratios if fitted on a similair model overseas. one example i cna think of is the VSO SBS9888Y compared to hong Kongs VSO. -
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It simply means one is correct and the other is misguided.Originally posted by ^tamago^:then how do people come to different conclusions? is it necessary that people must think like how you think? -
I asked a BC for fave bus and he pointed to the MKIII and an 0405.Originally posted by MS:I suggest that you have to view things from a macro view.
In terms of technical superiority & make quality, Voith is better than ZF in many ways. It's difficult for me to go into details if you do not understand the concept of how the gearbox works.
The ZF however despite costs also substantially being technically & make inferior to Voith also proves statistically to lose out to Voith breaking down ratios & the need to replace them is more in terms of percentage. And it is a lot more. Exact details I cannot reveal in the public forum.
When you say Voiths are poor hill climbers that's not true. ZF has a gear ratio of 3.43(1st), 2.01(2nd), 1.42(3rd), 1(4th, direct coupling), 4.84(Reverse) for 4HP. But Voith has a whoppping 6.1(1st), 1.43(2nd), 1(direct coupling), 5.2(reverse) for a 3 gear Voith 3N models 4 gear voiths have 6.1(1st), 1.43(2nd), 1.00(3rd, direct coupling), 0.73(4th), 5.2(reverse) for 4 gears Voith 3N models.
In terms of top speed, Voith are better. In terms of up hill, Voith has a powerful first gear twice the power of ZF. If you mount it into the same engine you will know the difference. Although ZF has a more flater ratio, It does not give kinda boost needed to move the capacity of passengers when needed compared to Voith.
Also those wheeoooorrrr sounds are not gearboxes. Because if gearboxes make those sounds then the gearbox must be in such a terrible condition that I have not even heard of before. NOrmally those constantly meshing sounds are from the axle or diff unit. BEcause in the gearboxes, gears are constantly meshed. Only the locking of different clutches decide which gear to use. Study the sun and planetary gear system. This will be the gearbox concept that's going to dominate the future market.
I am currently waiting for my car to be brought into SGP from France by Sime Darby Autofrance awaiting the launch of the Peugeot 207. The gearbox itself is tiptronic. Very hardly will you find the traditional manual meshing gearbox unless it's a very basic model. In buses however, I don't think it is financially sensible to manufacture buses with manual gearboxes anymore. Because unlikely it can sell well anymore.
The BC I meet do not have any preferences to which gearbox. As long as can be driven easily, don't breakdown, hopefully got air con. OK already.
And Yes!! MB0405 is legendary. Easy to maintain and more BC prefer MB0405. Easy to drive too. I have asked so many BC before when they are at my workshop while I give them a bus to cameo, like the most recent, one BL shuttle service BC need to take bus from me during a weekend, I asked him Volvo MK4 or MB0405. And guess his choice?
100% of them prefers MB0405.
As for breakdowns, I've come across many occasions of stuck ZFs, but 1 Voith (9844Z) to date. -
1 noticeable feature of the voith gearbox is that it tends to hold the 1st gear much longer than the other 2 or 3 geard. Can be inferred that the ratio of the 1st gear is significantly higher than the ZF counterpart.
When the gearboxes wear out, for voith, there will be very noticeable stickiness in shifting down gears and in some cases, the shifting up will have a noticeable lag time. For ageing ZFs, there will also be higher lag times in between gear switches and very noticeably, the lock-up clutch does not kick in if the bus is accelerating fast. If it does when the bus is accelerating slower, then instead of the characteristical kick, you get teeth grinding sounds instead. -
Both also dont have ZF gearboxesOriginally posted by SBS3625D:I asked a BC for fave bus and he pointed to the MKIII and an 0405. Except for SBS876R and SBS877M. 
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The new video, now all three are put together, unlike separately like last time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0VbQIxyluM
PLS VIEW AND COMMENT ON TI!