SBS Transit invests $159mln in new buses from Scania & Volvo
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Expectations from SBS & SMRT are high. Not only do we commuters want a comfortable journey, some of us will want to see a spectrum of various models and designs.
It will certainly liven up the streets if we have more models. And it makes bus rides more interesting too.
I thought I saw a MB OC500 parking inside a C&C workshop. I do hope to see some Scania and Mercedes Double Decks.
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Originally posted by Y_Shun:
/facepalm
Sometimes cheap isn't the best. Know there is something called value for money?
I know some of you guys are trying to look from the perspective of the bus co, but sometimes its just plain ironic when we can see they used to buy better buses in the past.
If SBST seriously wants to increase their profits, they got alot to learn from SMRT, rather than having inefficiency.
Wrong perspective.
You have already said, value for money. From what I have seen being posted before here, the K230UB chassis is not exactly cheap either. Moreover Scania is a very established brand for commercial vehicles market, be it buses, trucks, etc. Not any ABC brand in the market. In a business persepctive, I believe Scania wants to establish a long term relationship with SBST, that's why they might be offering value for money prices when purchasing in bulk. Buying in bulk cheaply doesn't mean that the product alone is a cheap and inferior product. And I believe the Scania K series chassis might have undergone testing before SBST had really made a final decision to purchase it in bulk. If not, what is SBS8033_ for???
However as a personal point of view, I believe that the Scania K230UB chassis might have problems that is not suitable to the local's hot climate and intensive conditions, which might, I believe impair the performance of the bus, which is the same case for some of the European buses here. That is why we can see SBST is trying to rectify the mistakes for the EURO IV and EEV batches, rather than we see nothing physical is being improved at all. If the Scania K series chassis is so bad, then why bus companies in Malaysia and even well established KMB from Hong Kong wants to buy K series as their replacements for their single deckers, rather than buying Dennis Enviro 200, for example???
SMRT is a failure in making profits, just look the results for the past few years in the bus and cab division, much more worse than ComfortDelgro. SMRT makes money because of it rail operations and the way they make business is pro-profit and pro-company and taking care of their own dividends only, not pro-service and putting customers at interest. Their efficiency in bus operations is also no better. Please don't quote a failure as an example, KMB from Hong Kong will be a better example that will put our bus operators in shame.
On the other perspective, partnership issues is another factor that affects the bus company that purchase the particular brand of bus chassis. TIBS established a well partnership with C&C in Singapore, that is why they could buy Mercedes Benz buses in fleets in the 1990s and the early 2000s. This partnership thus automatically continues when SMRT took over TIBS after that, sadly. Probably it is just too bad that SBS in the 1990s concentrated too much on Volvo buses in the 1990s and thus might had lost the favour from Mercedes Benz, which I say is a shame, as they had established a good relationship with them since the 70s and 80s and early 90s. However this is just a personal opinion at one's own point of view, as we as outsiders will not really know what really happened or what is happening between bus companies and chassis distributors. But I really do hope that C&C and SBST will try to have that kind of relationship back again.
On a personal note, however, I feel that this kind of partnership for Singapore bus operators is plain stupid as it affects both bus companies and chassis distributors. Bus companies on one hand can only have limited brands to choose from when buying new fleets, and chassis distributors on the other might lose an opportunity to get a sales from a bigger or better bus company or a bus company who is really interested in their products but cannot have the partnership because of other tied partnership. Look at Hong Kong bus operators, KMB, Citybus, ex CMB can buy within many brands and brands that co-exist with each other, no matter it is a Volvo Olympian, Dennis Tridents, Alexender Enviro 500, Volvo B9TL. Sadly for our local case, it is all about restrictions, restrictions and more restrictions.
Lastly, as people who like buses, we should now know what are the common traits of certain chassis from certain brands. Take Scania as a good example, we all know that most Scania city buses are prone to vibrations, be it SBST's N113CRBs, L94UB, or K230UBs and TIBS's acquired L113CRLs, all these buses we have taken before, we all know will have that kind of vibrations. As a bus fan, we should be readily prepared for it and probably accept the fact that Scania buses are like that, something that we can't really change. No point keep on complaining as I feel it is the product problem and not the bus operators' problem, unless maintenance issues is really so bad, as in the case for the ELBOS. If Scania buses vibrations really pisses some of you people so badly, then sent an email to Scania Sweden: http://www.scania.com/scania-group/contact/, instead of just keep on ranting here.
Lastly, stop flaming here.
Originally posted by Ex-busdriver:I thought I saw a MB OC500 parking inside a C&C workshop. I do hope to see some Scania and Mercedes Double Decks.
Impossible in the coming years.We don't see Mercedes Benz developing any double deckers for almost 2 decades and Scania K310UD is too expensive for our operators.
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Originally posted by vicamour:
Wrong perspective.
You have already said, value for money. From what I have seen being posted before here, the K230UB chassis is not exactly cheap either. Moreover Scania is a very established brand for commercial vehicles market, be it buses, trucks, etc. Not any ABC brand in the market. In a business persepctive, I believe Scania wants to establish a long term relationship with SBST, that's why they might be offering value for money prices when purchasing in bulk. Buying in bulk cheaply doesn't mean that the product alone is a cheap and inferior product. And I believe the Scania K series chassis might have undergone testing before SBST had really made a final decision to purchase it in bulk. If not, what is SBS8033_ for???
However as a personal point of view, I believe that the Scania K230UB chassis might have problems that is not suitable to the local's hot climate and intensive conditions, which might, I believe impair the performance of the bus, which is the same case for some of the European buses here. That is why we can see SBST is trying to rectify the mistakes for the EURO IV and EEV batches, rather than we see nothing physical is being improved at all. If the Scania K series chassis is so bad, then why bus companies in Malaysia and even well established KMB from Hong Kong wants to buy K series as their replacements for their single deckers, rather than buying Dennis Enviro 200, for example???
SMRT is a failure in making profits, just look the results for the past few years in the bus and cab division, much more worse than ComfortDelgro. SMRT makes money because of it rail operations and the way they make business is pro-profit and pro-company and taking care of their own dividends only, not pro-service and putting customers at interest. Their efficiency in bus operations is also no better. Please don't quote a failure as an example, KMB from Hong Kong will be a better example that will put our bus operators in shame.
On the other perspective, partnership issues is another factor that affects the bus company that purchase the particular brand of bus chassis. TIBS established a well partnership with C&C in Singapore, that is why they could buy Mercedes Benz buses in fleets in the 1990s and the early 2000s. This partnership thus automatically continues when SMRT took over TIBS after that, sadly. Probably it is just too bad that SBS in the 1990s concentrated too much on Volvo buses in the 1990s and thus might had lost the favour from Mercedes Benz, which I say is a shame, as they had established a good relationship with them since the 70s and 80s and early 90s. However this is just a personal opinion at one's own point of view, as we as outsiders will not really know what really happened or what is happening between bus companies and chassis distributors. But I really do hope that C&C and SBST will try to have that kind of relationship back again.
On a personal note, however, I feel that this kind of partnership for Singapore bus operators is plain stupid as it affects both bus companies and chassis distributors. Bus companies on one hand can only have limited brands to choose from when buying new fleets, and chassis distributors on the other might lose an opportunity to get a sales from a bigger or better bus company or a bus company who is really interested in their products but cannot have the partnership because of other tied partnership. Look at Hong Kong bus operators, KMB, Citybus, ex CMB can buy within many brands and brands that co-exist with each other, no matter it is a Volvo Olympian, Dennis Tridents, Alexender Enviro 500, Volvo B9TL. Sadly for our local case, it is all about restrictions, restrictions and more restrictions.
Lastly, as people who like buses, we should now know what are the common traits of certain chassis from certain brands. Take Scania as a good example, we all know that most Scania city buses are prone to vibrations, be it SBST's N113CRBs, L94UB, or K230UBs and TIBS's acquired L113CRLs, all these buses we have taken before, we all know will have that kind of vibrations. As a bus fan, we should be readily prepared for it and probably accept the fact that Scania buses are like that, something that we can't really change. No point keep on complaining as I feel it is the product problem and not the bus operators' problem, unless maintenance issues is really so bad, as in the case for the ELBOS. If Scania buses vibrations really pisses some of you people so badly, then sent an email to Scania Sweden: http://www.scania.com/scania-group/contact/, instead of just keep on ranting here.
Lastly, stop flaming here.
Impossible in the coming years.We don't see Mercedes Benz developing any double deckers for almost 2 decades and Scania K310UD is too expensive for our operators.
How is my perspective is wrong when it is coming from a consumer?
/facepalm
You can go ahead with your "bus company" perspective for all you want, but it still doesn't change my impressions of the bus companies.
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Just a few cents to share:
As Singapore's public bus companies are public-listed entities, they have to be cost-effective. But some differences, such as:
TIBS era buses: They were CBU (Complete Built-Up) units at the point of manufacture, and "flown" or "shipped" over here for service. Presumably they would be more durable;
SBS buses: Chassis' were shipped over here for Body building up by SBS Engineering (now CDGE), or local Soon Chow. It is perceived that this would be more cost-effective.
Pls correct any errors, thanks.
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Originally posted by Y_Shun:
How is my perspective is wrong when it is coming from a consumer?
/facepalm
You can go ahead with your "bus company" perspective for all you want, but it still doesn't change my impressions of the bus companies.
It is all right as you are entitled with your own point of view in the online community. I am just expressing my views from my knowledge of operating a business.However as a commuter myself, despite acquiring a bus that is not as good as the ones of the older generation, I don't see the general public complaining much on the vibrations or the bus is cheap or same buses everywhere or whatever. Does the general public know or care if the bus is cheap or not as long as it is from an established brand??? Most complaints of all the new WAB buses are the lack of seats and the jerkings. And many people don't see a reason for 2 PIW slots in a bus since the frequnecy of 2 PIWs boarding the same bus is very very rare. Aging population vs PIWs, who take public buses more often??? At least I see improvements in every batch they acquired and I'm satisfied.
Moreover I had already stated in the views of partnership persective, which I strongly disagree with the current practices. If C&C now has good ties with SBST, I think they will get the bulk purchase for its fleet renewal program, instead of Scania. Right now the more ironic thing is that ther aren't much suitable WAB chassis for the local operators to start buying with. You can argue that we can get Irisbus or Dennis Enviro buses but to start with, do commuters want to pay for a 50 cents fare hike to buy these kind of buses???
As what I had said earlier, the local bus companies had a lot to learn from overseas ones like KMB, in terms of customer service and operating persepectives. No matter how good or bad I think about them, they are far from world class. That's why our public transport system can only regarded as "so-called" "world class" as it is too "controlled" and too "regulated" and maybe more in years to come.
Originally posted by Tident:Just a few cents to share:
As Singapore's public bus companies are public-listed entities, they have to be cost-effective. But some differences, such as:
TIBS era buses: They were CBU (Complete Built-Up) units at the point of manufacture, and "flown" or "shipped" over here for service. Presumably they would be more durable;
SBS buses: Chassis' were shipped over here for Body building up by SBS Engineering (now CDGE), or local Soon Chow. It is perceived that this would be more cost-effective.
Pls correct any errors, thanks.
No errors, you are right.For TIBS era, I believe that TIBS do not have the captial or any partnership with any coach builders to have their own bus building facilty for them to build their own buses and thus importing them as CBU is more feasible for them at that point of time.
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Originally posted by vicamour:
Impossible in the coming years.
We don't see Mercedes Benz developing any double deckers for almost 2 decades and Scania K310UD is too expensive for our operators.
Although not meant for urban operations, Mercedes-Benz Thailand has been offering a triaxle bus chassis, IBC2036.
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Originally posted by Superbus:
Although not meant for urban operations, Mercedes-Benz Thailand has been offering a triaxle bus chassis, IBC2036.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.But I think that is probably more for the Thailand market. Look at the specs, it is just up to EURO 2 emission standards which I believe LTA will never approve. What's more, it's manual and I think not low floor. But it is a sign of light that Mercedes Benz ADDs can happen in future.
Remember the Mercedes Benz O305 double decker. I believed that Mercedes Benz in the 1980s wanted to look into a new market, double deckers other than single deckers in their product lineup. That's why they created a O305 double decker for two markets which has one of the biggest double decker fleet in the world. Hong Kong and Singapore. Sadly Hong Kong did not buy much of the O305 DDs and Singapore only has 202 O305s (including 2 demonstrators) and no more orders for the subsequent new DD fleet orders. Just my own point of view though...
Not sure about the local German market but MAN has already dominated most of the double deckers fleets in Germany, thus Mercedes Benz might think that there is no need to develop double deckers for their product line up.
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Originally posted by vicamour:
Interesting. Thanks for sharing.But I think that is probably more for the Thailand market. Look at the specs, it is just up to EURO 2 emission standards which I believe LTA will never approve. But it is a sign of light that Mercedes Benz ADDs can happen in future.
Remember the Mercedes Benz O305 double decker. I believed that Mercedes Benz in the 1980s wanted to look into a new market, double deckers other than single deckers in their product lineup. That's why they created a O305 double decker for two markets which has one of the biggest double decker fleet in the world. Hong Kong and Singapore. Sadly Hong Kong did not buy much of the O305 DDs and Singapore only has 202 O305s (including 2 demonstrators) and no more orders for the subsequent new DD fleet orders. Just my own point of view though...
Not sure about the local German market but MAN has already dominated most of the double deckers fleets in Germany, thus Mercedes Benz might think that there is no need to develop double deckers for their product line up.
The reason why Kmb didnt buy more O305s was because kmb needed more 3 axle dds instead for more capacity, but however as Mercedes Benz was unable to provide such a vehicle, they turned to MCW, Leyland and Dennis for 3 axle vehicles...
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From a business point of view, it is logical for them to buy more Scanias than Volvos. If you guys read the article, you will find that a Volvo bus cost more than a Scania bus.
Thus it is logical for them to buy more Scanias.We may not like Scanias, but we have to live with it.
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Originally posted by AEW5001:
From a business point of view, it is logical for them to buy more Scanias than Volvos. If you guys read the article, you will find that a Volvo bus cost more than a Scania bus.
Thus it is logical for them to buy more Scanias.We may not like Scanias, but we have to live with it.
Yeah everyone knows that Volvo is too good and expensive for SBST.
Volvo=Expensive but better quality
Scania=cheaper but lousier shit quality
Actually Gemaling is the major bodybuilder for the most of the Sin-Kl malaysian Express buses.So the quality of the body shld be very extra strong as this buses MUST be strong as they run between 2 countries for many hours numerous times a day.It isnt a small and easy thing if their bodyworks crack everytime especially if they are in the middle of their routes.That would be super troublesome.So if those express buses bodies are so strong,then why when it comes to this SBST kubs their bodies are like a piece of plastic like that?One tiny scratch and thats it.It shld be the same strengthness as the express buses wat.I dont understand the fact that how come the express buses bodies are so solid and the kubs one is like a leaf?Just imagine if the express buses bodies were also to be as the same quality as the kubs ones.Thats it.One accident and i think only the floorboard will be left.So there definitely must be some differences between the express buses bodies and the kubs bodies.The gemilang bloody shit ah build the express buses bodies until so solid and build the kubs bodies until like plastic like that.
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Originally posted by Merczrox:
Yeah everyone knows that Volvo is too good and expensive for SBST.
Volvo=Expensive but better quality
Scania=cheaper but lousier shit quality
Actually Gemaling is the major bodybuilder for the most of the Sin-Kl malaysian Express buses.So the quality of the body shld be very extra strong as this buses MUST be strong as they run between 2 countries for many hours numerous times a day.It isnt a small and easy thing if their bodyworks crack everytime especially if they are in the middle of their routes.That would be super troublesome.So if those express buses bodies are so strong,then why when it comes to this SBST kubs their bodies are like a piece of plastic like that?One tiny scratch and thats it.It shld be the same strengthness as the express buses wat.I dont understand the fact that how come the express buses bodies are so solid and the kubs one is like a leaf?Just imagine if the express buses bodies were also to be as the same quality as the kubs ones.Thats it.One accident and i think only the floorboard will be left.So there definitely must be some differences between the express buses bodies and the kubs bodies.The gemilang bloody shit ah build the express buses bodies until so solid and build the kubs bodies until like plastic like that.cos SBST pay less? do they have some grade that depending onn how much you hav then thats the kind of quality you get? if if they keep getting this kind of bus in 20 yrs how?
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Scania is a well-known brand in the commercial vehicles market compared to Volvo.
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Originally posted by Merczrox:
Yeah everyone knows that Volvo is too good and expensive for SBST.
Volvo=Expensive but better quality
Scania=cheaper but lousier shit quality
Actually Gemaling is the major bodybuilder for the most of the Sin-Kl malaysian Express buses.So the quality of the body shld be very extra strong as this buses MUST be strong as they run between 2 countries for many hours numerous times a day.It isnt a small and easy thing if their bodyworks crack everytime especially if they are in the middle of their routes.That would be super troublesome.So if those express buses bodies are so strong,then why when it comes to this SBST kubs their bodies are like a piece of plastic like that?One tiny scratch and thats it.It shld be the same strengthness as the express buses wat.I dont understand the fact that how come the express buses bodies are so solid and the kubs one is like a leaf?Just imagine if the express buses bodies were also to be as the same quality as the kubs ones.Thats it.One accident and i think only the floorboard will be left.So there definitely must be some differences between the express buses bodies and the kubs bodies.The gemilang bloody shit ah build the express buses bodies until so solid and build the kubs bodies until like plastic like that.yup. u see SBS8074K. one bang and its out for X months, X nearly hitting the double digits.
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Based on my personal evaluations, so far only Scania CRBs have lived up to beyond my expectations.
The Elbos are the worst failures, followed by Scania L113CRL (SMRT). These 2 models though younger than the MBO405, already looked so haggard and the engines seemed to be in poorer condition.
Looking at the age of about 15yrs old (b4 retirement) between Volvo Mk 2 and the CRBs, I think the CRBs still faired much better than Mk 2. When the Mk 2 exceeded around 50kmh, most started to vibrate violently, but the CRBs still managed to speed gracefully. I feel that the CRBs vibrations were generally still kept within control till the day of retirement (esp the CAC). I hope Scania takes its CRB as a good role model to follow and improve from.
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Originally posted by Merczrox:
Yeah everyone knows that Volvo is too good and expensive for SBST.
Volvo=Expensive but better quality
Scania=cheaper but lousier shit quality
Actually Gemaling is the major bodybuilder for the most of the Sin-Kl malaysian Express buses.So the quality of the body shld be very extra strong as this buses MUST be strong as they run between 2 countries for many hours numerous times a day.It isnt a small and easy thing if their bodyworks crack everytime especially if they are in the middle of their routes.That would be super troublesome.So if those express buses bodies are so strong,then why when it comes to this SBST kubs their bodies are like a piece of plastic like that?One tiny scratch and thats it.It shld be the same strengthness as the express buses wat.I dont understand the fact that how come the express buses bodies are so solid and the kubs one is like a leaf?Just imagine if the express buses bodies were also to be as the same quality as the kubs ones.Thats it.One accident and i think only the floorboard will be left.So there definitely must be some differences between the express buses bodies and the kubs bodies.The gemilang bloody shit ah build the express buses bodies until so solid and build the kubs bodies until like plastic like that.1. Gemilang is ONE of the major coachwork company. But certainly not for most of the express buses shuttling regularly between Singapore and Malaysia. SKSbus-made coaches has more units running than Gemilang.
2. I would like to see some factual evidence to back up your alleged claims that the citybus bodywork design by Gemilang is less durable than the express coach bodywork design. Please do not quote statements based on your visual assessments or observations, but rather from the technical aspect of the structural design itself.
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Originally posted by SBS3688Y:
The Elbos are the worst failures, followed by Scania L113CRL (SMRT). These 2 models though younger than the MBO405, already looked so haggard and the engines seemed to be in poorer condition.
I strongly agree on this one. Whenever my frens came and take this type of buses (on 187), they would say like 'Wah! So old sia the bus! Confirm inside no aircon one..' Although i like the loud & draggy ZF transmission, the interior & exterior should be cleaned up once every month if its on service. One example is that the area when the front EDS was put, is super dirty (exclude the Lance-like front) and u can see white dust-stain inside it. Green stain is visible at the sides of some ELBOs too. The ridiculous thing abt these buses is that the A/C duct is unconfigurable - which means the cold wind (sometimes just hot air) would be only pointing downwards and not towards other direction.. The vibration is also unbearable when on idle mode (same case as some of the DAFs too)
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no point complaining , Singapore would choose the cheapest and most " durable ' product ...
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Intensive period for Scania's city bus sales - Scania's official press release
Scania has received several large order for city buses in recent months. A total of 460 buses will be delivered to Singapore, Australia and Great Britain. Good environmental and fuel performance as well as high vehicle and service quality were crucial factors behind the choice of Scania as a bus supplier.
The single largest order is from Singapore, where operator SBS transit has ordered 200 more buses for delivery between November 2009 and May 2010. Since 2007, SBS Transit has ordered a total of 1,100 city buses from Scania, making the company one of Scania's biggest bus customers in the world today.
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Originally posted by Superbus:
2. I would like to see some factual evidence to back up your alleged claims that the citybus bodywork design by Gemilang is less durable than the express coach bodywork design. Please do not quote statements based on your visual assessments or observations, but rather from the technical aspect of the structural design itself.
Technical specifications can talk until the cows come home.
Photo pretty much speaks for itself. Tell me that you do not have any slightest fear for the first time you saw this.
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Originally posted by SBS3688Y:
Based on my personal evaluations, so far only Scania CRBs have lived up to beyond my expectations.
The Elbos are the worst failures, followed by Scania L113CRL (SMRT). These 2 models though younger than the MBO405, already looked so haggard and the engines seemed to be in poorer condition.
Looking at the age of about 15yrs old (b4 retirement) between Volvo Mk 2 and the CRBs, I think the CRBs still faired much better than Mk 2. When the Mk 2 exceeded around 50kmh, most started to vibrate violently, but the CRBs still managed to speed gracefully. I feel that the CRBs vibrations were generally still kept within control till the day of retirement (esp the CAC). I hope Scania takes its CRB as a good role model to follow and improve from.
poor maintenence by SMRT
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Technical specifications can talk until the cows come home.
Photo pretty much speaks for itself. Tell me that you do not have any slightest fear for the first time you saw this.
The front absorbed all the impact from the accident. Speed and the force plays a part too. Normally during an rear-end collision, the vehicle at the back would suffer the most damage
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I believe in majority of accidents, the extent of damage is due to the impact of collusion and not so on the bodywork. Speed, amount of force, size & type of vehicles involved in collusion, road conditions etc.
For modern buses which are made up of more fibreglass components instead of metal, it helps to reduce capital cost, dead weight of the bus and hence greater fuel economy.
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All buses have imminent maintaining and repair costs. The element wen choosing the maker or model would be the cost of the bus and spare parts. Power trains and drives, like engine, transmission and ratio of diff. can be configured to suit the driving conditions and loads. Every component has a life, proper maintenance and good mechanics would be the key to maintain the fleet to be in immaculate condition to enable a smooth flow of operation at all times.
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A few years back everyone was clamouring for Scanias, Scanias and Scanias when there was the demonstrator L94UB and no new Scania was in sight. Now, it's overkill. If this batch were to be OmniCities I think there would have been no complains here.
This is no Scania's fault here. Scania's QC is unlikely to fall short of its Volvo counterpart, especially if they came from the same country. It really comes down to the maintenance of these buses.
Even the best brand of buses can fall apart and become trash if the mechanics underestimate the extent of wear and tear or/and do not keep things in order.