Why so many K230UB's in Singapore today?
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Originally posted by nfshp253:
WOW THE BUS LOOKS AWESOME! I guess it is extremely good in the speed of alighting pessangers and picking up pessangers.
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Problem it's now 13.8m in length compared to 13m for previous batch la thamby.
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Originally posted by Brother W. Sunikmaniam:
Problem it's now 13.8m in length compared to 13m for previous batch la thamby.
NO TO CREEPY SCANIAS!! Superlong Scania worse!!
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Originally posted by SMB228X:
NO TO CREEPY SCANIAS!! Superlong Scania worse!!
Are you sure the double-deck bus in the picture is a Scania bus?
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
You might be surprised that both the Scania K230UB and Citaro actually costs the same at about 360k each, despite the large orders of the K230UB and shipping in of the Citaros. And the MAN A22 costs slightly lesser at 325k each.
Figures are from announced press releases.
However, we what we do not know is the operating costs (includes fuel consumption, maintenance and servicing, repairs, etc) of each of the types. This can add up to a rather significant amount in 17/19 years.
It all depends on how much the quotation was.In fact your comparison dun make sense as there's evaluation made for every purchase. For all we may know, the price of Citaro back during the KUB orders was a rip off.
It's all abt supply n demand
Your theory makes prices of buses being inflexible...
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Originally posted by sbst275:
It all depends on how much the quotation was.In fact your comparison dun make sense as there's evaluation made for every purchase. For all we may know, the price of Citaro back during the KUB orders was a rip off.
It's all abt supply n demand
Your theory makes prices of buses being inflexible...
I have no idea what are you quoting here. And i did not give any theory in the post. Operating costs are facts, prices of the vehicles are facts too, nothing theoretical at all.
The prices are publically announced in the press. You can look up sbst's press history for the press releases. The OMV of the vehicles also supports these prices.
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Originally posted by SMB228X:
NO TO CREEPY SCANIAS!! Superlong Scania worse!!
Its a MAN A39 lion city dd with 10.5litres 360hp/1750nm u goondoos
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Originally posted by SMB228X:
NO TO CREEPY SCANIAS!! Superlong Scania worse!!
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Originally posted by Brother W. Sunikmaniam:
Its a MAN A39 lion city dd with 10.5litres 360hp/1750nm u goondoos
MAN A39 (ND xx3) are shipped with the 235kW (320hp) version of the MAN D 2066 LUH engine as standard, which produces 1600Nm of torque. Optionally available is the 265kW (360hp) version of the D 2066 LUH engine, which produces 1800Nm of torque. Both engine variants have twin-stage turbocharging.
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
I have no idea what are you quoting here. And i did not give any theory in the post. Operating costs are facts, prices of the vehicles are facts too, nothing theoretical at all.
The prices are publically announced in the press. You can look up sbst's press history for the press releases. The OMV of the vehicles also supports these prices.
For all we may know, Citaro was quoted at say $400k vs KUB's $350,000 in the 1100 purchase?Prcies of buses is never fixed. There's always indv quotation exercise for each batch of fleet replacement. For this, it's unless someone can go grab the respective quotation price which is fat hope.
Theory is more of econs. If you see here so many KUB and there's interest in another batch of single deck purchase, what would you do to break the KUB purchase dominace? Isn't it to offer something better and at better price? Though it's theory, it's something pretty automatic as well..
The way you put it is as if the Citaro was priced at $350k.. Then may I ask why SBST went for KUB instead? Running cost is one, what abt the price of the buses as well? Say $40k diff over 12 years w/ 300 buses isn't cheap either...
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Originally posted by sbst275:
For all we may know, Citaro was quoted at say $400k vs KUB's $350,000 in the 1100 purchase?Prcies of buses is never fixed. There's always indv quotation exercise for each batch of fleet replacement. For this, it's unless someone can go grab the respective quotation price which is fat hope.
Theory is more of econs. If you see here so many KUB and there's interest in another batch of single deck purchase, what would you do to break the KUB purchase dominace? Isn't it to offer something better and at better price? Though it's theory, it's something pretty automatic as well..
The way you put it is as if the Citaro was priced at $350k.. Then may I ask why SBST went for KUB instead? Running cost is one, what abt the price of the buses as well? Say $40k diff over 12 years w/ 300 buses isn't cheap either...
As mentioned previously, unless someone works in sbst office, we wont know the exact reason why the citaro was not preferred in earlier rounds. But in fact, we must not forget that C&C only offered the more expensive OC500LE as a competing vehicle during the 2007-2009 period. This would lead sbst to rejecting the trial even, as the 12lit engine was more likely to be using more fuel than the 9lit on the k230ub, and also costing more in upfront purchase price.
I would still keep my stand, that sbst had no choice in 2010 but to order a fully built up vehicle. This is based on the chronological order of events that occured, in which the assembly of the wrights being the most significant factor.
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Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:
MAN A39 (ND xx3) are shipped with the 235kW (320hp) version of the MAN D 2066 LUH engine as standard, which produces 1600Nm of torque. Optionally available is the 265kW (360hp) version of the D 2066 LUH engine, which produces 1800Nm of torque. Both engine variants have twin-stage turbocharging.
Wow, your knowledge is impressive. Merc, Scania & MAN you got them covered.
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
As mentioned previously, unless someone works in sbst office, we wont know the exact reason why the citaro was not preferred in earlier rounds. But in fact, we must not forget that C&C only offered the more expensive OC500LE as a competing vehicle during the 2007-2009 period. This would lead sbst to rejecting the trial even, as the 12lit engine was more likely to be using more fuel than the 9lit on the k230ub, and also costing more in upfront purchase price.
I would still keep my stand, that sbst had no choice in 2010 but to order a fully built up vehicle. This is based on the chronological order of events that occured, in which the assembly of the wrights being the most significant factor.
Maybe LTA banned new buses not full low floor, so SBS forced to buy Citaros!!!
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Your assumption regarding the fuel consumption of the K230UB vs. OC 500 LE is incorrect. Experience in Australia has shown that the K230UB actually consumes as much, if not MORE fuel than the OC 500 LE, particularly in more demanding start-stop traffic and hilly topographies.Originally posted by Bus Stopping:But in fact, we must not forget that C&C only offered the more expensive OC500LE as a competing vehicle during the 2007-2009 period. This would lead sbst to rejecting the trial even, as the 12lit engine was more likely to be using more fuel than the 9lit on the k230ub, and also costing more in upfront purchase price.
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Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:
Your assumption regarding the fuel consumption of the K230UB vs. OC 500 LE is incorrect. Experience in Australia has shown that the K230UB actually consumes as much, if not MORE fuel than the OC 500 LE, particularly in more demanding start-stop traffic and hilly topographies.
I see, thanks for correcting me. But surely there must be a reason as to why sbs transit decided to go ahead with 1100 fuel guzzling monsters instead of the OC 500 LE or 18.240HOCL?
Even just a slight 10% more diesel consumed would add up to a very significant amount over the lifespan (17+2years) of the entire fleet.
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Originally posted by Bus Stopping:
I see, thanks for correcting me. But surely there must be a reason as to why sbs transit decided to go ahead with 1100 fuel guzzling monsters?
Even just a slight 10% more diesel consumed would add up to a very significant amount over the lifespan (17+2years) of the entire fleet.
There's so much more to purchasing buses than unit price and fuel consumption. Factors such as aftersales support offered, price of spares and consumables and suitability of the offered drivetrain(s) to the application are taken into consideration.
One of the biggest factors that are taken into consideration today is the need for Diesel Exhaust Fluid, or AdBlue. Some operators insist on operating buses that do not require AdBlue even at the expense of a slight fuel economy and/or cooling disadvantage.
Remember that a large, torquey engine has advantages for the driver too. When drivers who operate bus routes in the Perth hills were recently provided with OC 500 LEs to replace O 405 NHs, they immediately noticed the more powerful engine and better matched gearbox on the OC 500 LEs which made for a less stressful driving experience. There was even a fuel consumption advantage when the change was made!
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Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:
There's so much more to purchasing buses than unit price and fuel consumption. Factors such as aftersales support offered, price of spares and consumables and suitability of the offered drivetrain(s) to the application are taken into consideration.
One of the biggest factors that are taken into consideration today is the need for Diesel Exhaust Fluid, or AdBlue. Some operators insist on operating buses that do not require AdBlue even at the expense of a slight fuel economy and/or cooling disadvantage.
Remember that a large, torquey engine has advantages for the driver too. When drivers who operate bus routes in the Perth hills were recently provided with OC 500 LEs to replace O 405 NHs, they immediately noticed the more powerful engine and better matched gearbox on the OC 500 LEs which made for a less stressful driving experience. There was even a fuel consumption advantage when the change was made!
I understand that there are more factors too, but would it be true to say that on a economic viewpoint, the unit price, fuel consumption, and the availability/cost of aftersales support (parts, etc) being the few major areas of consideration in purchasing buses?
As for DEF, it does not seem to be the reason here as both the operators now operates a mixed fleet consisting of both EGR and SCR vehicles. However, it could be of an issue in smaller fleets as it is not readily available at fuel pumps here.
Lastly, my opinion would be that both of the operators here tend to neglect the driver's comfort with horribly placed mirrors (way too high up on the OC500LE), tight spaces in driver's cab, glare from glossy plastics, etc.. It's sad to see this, but i guess the job is not as well respected here (compared to australia) for the operators to care.
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Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:
There's so much more to purchasing buses than unit price and fuel consumption. Factors such as aftersales support offered, price of spares and consumables and suitability of the offered drivetrain(s) to the application are taken into consideration.
One of the biggest factors that are taken into consideration today is the need for Diesel Exhaust Fluid, or AdBlue. Some operators insist on operating buses that do not require AdBlue even at the expense of a slight fuel economy and/or cooling disadvantage.
Remember that a large, torquey engine has advantages for the driver too. When drivers who operate bus routes in the Perth hills were recently provided with OC 500 LEs to replace O 405 NHs, they immediately noticed the more powerful engine and better matched gearbox on the OC 500 LEs which made for a less stressful driving experience. There was even a fuel consumption advantage when the change was made!
Umm, I think the OC500s replaced the Renaults and the O305s. There are still a number of O405 Euro IIs serving in the Midvale-Walliston area. Seen them on Route 299.Anyway, I think that explains why there are so few Scanias in WA. From what I see, only the east coast operators like the public transit authorities in Sydney and Brisbane, as well as Dysons of Bundoora (Melbourne), deploy buses of this make.
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Originally posted by iveco:
Umm, I think the OC500s replaced the Renaults and the O305s. There are still a number of O405 Euro IIs serving in the Midvale-Walliston area. Seen them on Route 299.Anyway, I think that explains why there are so few Scanias in WA. From what I see, only the east coast operators like the public transit authorities in Sydney and Brisbane, as well as Dysons of Bundoora (Melbourne), deploy buses of this make.
There were no O 305s operating out of Kalamunda depot prior to the introduction of the OC 500 diesels.
The Renaults at Kalamunda depot are still based there and will continue to be based there for the foreseeable future.
The OC 500 diesels replaced O 405 NHs on a one-for-one basis, with no more O 405 NHs now remaining at Kalamunda depot.
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Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:
Your assumption regarding the fuel consumption of the K230UB vs. OC 500 LE is incorrect. Experience in Australia has shown that the K230UB actually consumes as much, if not MORE fuel than the OC 500 LE, particularly in more demanding start-stop traffic and hilly topographies.
Does the Scania K230UB in Australia jerks like SBST ones? How about the performance of K230UB in RapidKL buses and KMB's Scania K230UB Caetano? -
Originally posted by SBS3688Y:
Does the Scania K230UB in Australia jerks like SBST ones? How about the performance of K230UB in RapidKL buses and KMB's Scania K230UB Caetano?I've found them completely underpowered to the extent that they are almost undriveable. The fact that the Australian ones have 295/80 R22.5 tyres as opposed to 275/70 R22.5 ones compounds this problem. High profile tyres = slower acceleration. And yes, they aren't the smoothest buses.
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Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:
I've found them completely underpowered to the extent that they are almost undriveable. The fact that the Australian ones have 295/80 R22.5 tyres as opposed to 275/70 R22.5 ones compounds this problem. High profile tyres = slower acceleration. And yes, they aren't the smoothest buses.
See la!!! KUB is also horrible in Australia so SBS should stop buying Scanias and buy more Citaros!!!
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Originally posted by SMB228X:
See la!!! KUB is also horrible in Australia so SBS should stop buying Scanias and buy more Citaros!!!
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Originally posted by SMB228X:
See la!!! KUB is also horrible in Australia so SBS should stop buying Scanias and buy more Citaros!!!
In all fairness, the Scania K230UBs are 'adequate' for suburban conditions with flat terrain and longer distances between stops. My only objection is that they use just as much, if not MORE fuel than a Mercedes-Benz OC 500 LE under the same conditions, and on top of that, the Merc is more driveable (i.e. the driver doesn't have to use as much throttle to achieve the same result).
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So Dave how about K270?Better?