Miscellaneous Topics on Buses
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Gearbox analogy (imo):
ZF = For any routes, from urban routes with occasional express sectors to expressway routes
Voith = For routes that utilise many express sectors
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Originally posted by 23ispolo:
Gearbox analogy (imo):
ZF = For any routes, from urban routes with occasional express sectors to expressway routes
Voith = For routes that utilise many express sectors
And i dun understand why SBST loves Voith so much..
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Originally posted by TIB987K:
I just realised I missed out the other direction ... (see my post again; amended)
okay. thankyou.
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Suggestion:
In Double Decker buses, remove that display counter that says how many seats are available at the upper deck of the bus.
Why? Because they are not accurate.
I have encountered this many times already, where the display says the upper deck is 'FULL', but when I go up, there are plenty of empty seats.
As a result of that display saying 'FULL', very few people actually go up to see if there are any seats. Thus, even though there are still empty seats at the upper deck, the Double Decker bus is unable to accept any more people, because people are not going up becauce (they thought) the upper deck is 'FULL', while the lower deck is (indeed) 'FULL'.
Think about it.
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
Suggestion:
In Double Decker buses, remove that display counter that says how many seats are available at the upper deck of the bus.
Why? Because they are not accurate.
I have encountered this many times already, where the display says the upper deck is 'FULL', but when I go up, there are plenty of empty seats.
As a result of that display saying 'FULL', very few people actually go up to see if there are any seats. Thus, even though there are still empty seats at the upper deck, the Double Decker bus is unable to accept any more people, because people are not going up becauce (they thought) the upper deck is 'FULL', while the lower deck is (indeed) 'FULL'.
Think about it.
Removing need not always be the solution. Can just leave it unoperational for good.
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
Suggestion:
In Double Decker buses, remove that display counter that says how many seats are available at the upper deck of the bus.
Why? Because they are not accurate.
I have encountered this many times already, where the display says the upper deck is 'FULL', but when I go up, there are plenty of empty seats.
As a result of that display saying 'FULL', very few people actually go up to see if there are any seats. Thus, even though there are still empty seats at the upper deck, the Double Decker bus is unable to accept any more people, because people are not going up becauce (they thought) the upper deck is 'FULL', while the lower deck is (indeed) 'FULL'.
Think about it.
i notice same many time.
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Originally posted by proudtobeme:
i notice same many time.
SBS3305C counter showed 55 seats with 3 pax on the upper deck.
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
Suggestion:
In Double Decker buses, remove that display counter that says how many seats are available at the upper deck of the bus.
Why? Because they are not accurate.
I have encountered this many times already, where the display says the upper deck is 'FULL', but when I go up, there are plenty of empty seats.
As a result of that display saying 'FULL', very few people actually go up to see if there are any seats. Thus, even though there are still empty seats at the upper deck, the Double Decker bus is unable to accept any more people, because people are not going up becauce (they thought) the upper deck is 'FULL', while the lower deck is (indeed) 'FULL'.
Think about it.
I have even seen it the other way round before. Read above post.
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Suggestion (my own):
18 and 168 boarding queues (Berth B3) at Bedok Int should swap places (69 stay as it is) like 969 and 293 case a while ago... 18 has the outer most (longest) queue, while 168 has the shortest queue, which causes the queue to pile up in the space for passengers to walk in the interchange.
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
Suggestion:
In Double Decker buses, remove that display counter that says how many seats are available at the upper deck of the bus.
Why? Because they are not accurate.
I have encountered this many times already, where the display says the upper deck is 'FULL', but when I go up, there are plenty of empty seats.
As a result of that display saying 'FULL', very few people actually go up to see if there are any seats. Thus, even though there are still empty seats at the upper deck, the Double Decker bus is unable to accept any more people, because people are not going up becauce (they thought) the upper deck is 'FULL', while the lower deck is (indeed) 'FULL'.
Think about it.
SMRT and SBST would have flouted safety and operational regulations had they followed through the idea you proposed
the presence of the upper deck seat counter serves to give an approximation of the number of seats available on the upper deck of a DD. you could argue that it should be accurate to the last seat, but lets remember that all sensors are prone to misdetection and errors.
without comparing SBST and SMRT's deck counter sensors, i should remind you that nobody should be standing on the upper deck of a DD, and by removing the upper deck counter you are implicitly telling people that its OK to move upstairs then move downstairs (should the upper deck be full).
as a commuter, i would be frustrated should the above happen to me
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Originally posted by 23ispolo:
Gearbox analogy (imo):
ZF = For any routes, from urban routes with occasional express sectors to expressway routes
Voith = For routes that utilise many express sectors
Gearbox analogy (revised):
ZF = For exciting acceleration, good top speed and strong braking.
Voith = For buses that, when fitted with a ZF, become too powerful to safely control. also suitable for people whose ears are itchy for some non-standard retarder wheezing.
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Originally posted by SexyMichael:
SMRT and SBST would have flouted safety and operational regulations had they followed through the idea you proposed
the presence of the upper deck seat counter serves to give an approximation of the number of seats available on the upper deck of a DD. you could argue that it should be accurate to the last seat, but lets remember that all sensors are prone to misdetection and errors.
without comparing SBST and SMRT's deck counter sensors, i should remind you that nobody should be standing on the upper deck of a DD, and by removing the upper deck counter you are implicitly telling people that its OK to move upstairs then move downstairs (should the upper deck be full).
as a commuter, i would be frustrated should the above happen to me
Alternatively, the bus driver could look at the television above him to view the upper deck. If there are seats at the upper deck, he could tell people to move up to the upper deck.By the way, since you know so much, can I ask you one question?
Well, I am curious. How does the sensor detect if a seat is taken?
Is the sensor basically a weighing scale (in electronic form) which measures how much weight is acting on the seat - that when the input weight is greater than a certain value, it is considered 'taken'?
If so, one reason why the sensor may not work is because the spring did not return to its original form (length) when the load is removed.
The other reason is because the values written in the program is based on the weight of people of another part of the world (eg. Europe), or simply because the value is too small.
Actually, why not use a sensor that detects distance? When a load is within a certain distance (between 0cm to x cm), it is considered 'taken'. Would that be the solution to this flaw of the display counter?
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
Alternatively, the bus driver could look at the television above him to view the upper deck. If there are seats at the upper deck, he could tell people to move up to the upper deck.By the way, since you know so much, can I ask you one question?
Well, I am curious. How does the sensor detect if a seat is taken?
Is the sensor basically a weighing scale (in electronic form) which measures how much weight is acting on the seat - that when the input weight is greater than a certain value, it is considered 'taken'?
If so, one reason why the sensor may not work is because the spring did not return to its original form (length) when the load is removed.
The other reason is because the values written in the program is based on the weight of people of another part of the world (eg. Europe), or simply because the value is too small.
Actually, why not use a sensor that detects distance? When a load is within a certain distance (between 0cm to x cm), it is considered 'taken'. Would that be the solution to this flaw of the display counter?
you're gonna overwork the driver, who already has to:
1) enforce fare collection by making sure ppl tap their ezlink cards
2) assist PIWs (if need be)
3) advise cash-paying passengers on fare
4) enforce his scheduling by preparing to depart once boarding is done
5) look out for traffic once (4) take placeSensors quickly discussed:
SBST - 2x IR sensors (similar to those mounted to your exit doors) are mounted near the top of the staircase. when a commuter walks up the staircase, he will trip one sensor before the other. conversely, a passenger walking down the staircase will trp the sensors in the other order. the order in which the sensors are tripped leads the computer to conclude if a passenger has gone up to/down from the upper deck, thereby adjusting the seat count accordingly.
SMRT - photosensors that relies on facial recognition (i believe) is used. similar to the SBST setup (just that sensors are mounted on the AC duct above the stairs), the order in which the sensors detect a face will determine whether a person has gone up/down the upper deck and thereby adjust the seat count.
the method you proposed (weight-based) is a nice idea I did consider before, but dont forget that adds complexity to the seats because I have to add weight sensors (55 of them) to all the upper deck seats, not to mention associated wiring and maintenance issues (more sensors = more things to maintain) that follow these sensors (whether spring-based, pressure-based or whatnot).
another issue that will surface lies in the 'threshold weight' - say if you set the weight at 30kg, would a lady with 25kg of bulky items occupy 1 or 2 seats (assuming she needs the seat next to her to put these items)? similarly, if a person who weighs less than 30kg (as unlikely as it can get) takes the seat, would the seat be considered 'taken' or empty?
idk how you're gonna implement a distance-based sensor that determines if seats are 'taken', but dont forget the complexities that accompany whichever sensor of choice. remember: operators are always adverse to complexity.
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
Alternatively, the bus driver could look at the television above him to view the upper deck. If there are seats at the upper deck, he could tell people to move up to the upper deck.By the way, since you know so much, can I ask you one question?
Well, I am curious. How does the sensor detect if a seat is taken?
Is the sensor basically a weighing scale (in electronic form) which measures how much weight is acting on the seat - that when the input weight is greater than a certain value, it is considered 'taken'?
If so, one reason why the sensor may not work is because the spring did not return to its original form (length) when the load is removed.
The other reason is because the values written in the program is based on the weight of people of another part of the world (eg. Europe), or simply because the value is too small.
Actually, why not use a sensor that detects distance? When a load is within a certain distance (between 0cm to x cm), it is considered 'taken'. Would that be the solution to this flaw of the display counter?
there are sensors on the steps....
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I must also mention that the sensors on the older Volvo Olympian double deck were more accurate. The new wrights got alot of time I see with error. I ever seen a sensor showing 66 seats for upper deck, think it was either 3069J or 3070D on 199.
Just a suggestion- Instead of using sensor, why not just install a small LCD screen with life feed from the CCTV camera just near the upper deck Bus stopping signage. This one confirm cannot wrong one and can give people a view if seats are still available...
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https://www.facebook.com/sgbus/photos/a.839207529467567.1073741862.231928066862186/839207532800900/?type=1&theater
Did you see the above post on LTA FB page. They are now looking at proposing express routes and ideas to use express buses. Finally LTA realize the need of more express services.
I am sure 502, 506, 518 will be showcased in this as well as 190, 700, 966, 972, 985 kind of routes.
No wonder suddenly 506 / 518 receiving DDs. Seems to be part of planning.
Hope they also start a forum to take route suggestions.
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Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:
https://www.facebook.com/sgbus/photos/a.839207529467567.1073741862.231928066862186/839207532800900/?type=1&theater
Did you see the above post on LTA FB page. They are now looking at proposing express routes and ideas to use express buses. Finally LTA realize the need of more express services.
I am sure 502, 506, 518 will be showcased in this as well as 190, 700, 966, 972, 985 kind of routes.
No wonder suddenly 506 / 518 receiving DDs. Seems to be part of planning.
Hope they also start a forum to take route suggestions.
This is not LTA's Facebook page, but rather a page showcasing photos and information of Singapore's buses known as Singapore Buses.
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Originally posted by SexyMichael:
you're gonna overwork the driver, who already has to:
1) enforce fare collection by making sure ppl tap their ezlink cards
2) assist PIWs (if need be)
3) advise cash-paying passengers on fare
4) enforce his scheduling by preparing to depart once boarding is done
5) look out for traffic once (4) take placeSensors quickly discussed:
SBST - 2x IR sensors (similar to those mounted to your exit doors) are mounted near the top of the staircase. when a commuter walks up the staircase, he will trip one sensor before the other. conversely, a passenger walking down the staircase will trp the sensors in the other order. the order in which the sensors are tripped leads the computer to conclude if a passenger has gone up to/down from the upper deck, thereby adjusting the seat count accordingly.
SMRT - photosensors that relies on facial recognition (i believe) is used. similar to the SBST setup (just that sensors are mounted on the AC duct above the stairs), the order in which the sensors detect a face will determine whether a person has gone up/down the upper deck and thereby adjust the seat count.
the method you proposed (weight-based) is a nice idea I did consider before, but dont forget that adds complexity to the seats because I have to add weight sensors (55 of them) to all the upper deck seats, not to mention associated wiring and maintenance issues (more sensors = more things to maintain) that follow these sensors (whether spring-based, pressure-based or whatnot).
another issue that will surface lies in the 'threshold weight' - say if you set the weight at 30kg, would a lady with 25kg of bulky items occupy 1 or 2 seats (assuming she needs the seat next to her to put these items)? similarly, if a person who weighs less than 30kg (as unlikely as it can get) takes the seat, would the seat be considered 'taken' or empty?
idk how you're gonna implement a distance-based sensor that determines if seats are 'taken', but dont forget the complexities that accompany whichever sensor of choice. remember: operators are always adverse to complexity.
Thanks for the information. Glad to know how the device counts.
Well, for the errors, its probably because some devices some of the outputs and inputs are connected wrongly (thus does not reset after 55, etc.), or some components (eg. the LDR) is not working (or the resistor value too high, etc.)... PEEE and DE here... which I am not that good in, so I rather not elaborate.
Anyway, thanks for taking time to explain how the sensor works. Cheers.
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Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:
https://www.facebook.com/sgbus/photos/a.839207529467567.1073741862.231928066862186/839207532800900/?type=1&theater
Did you see the above post on LTA FB page. They are now looking at proposing express routes and ideas to use express buses. Finally LTA realize the need of more express services.
I am sure 502, 506, 518 will be showcased in this as well as 190, 700, 966, 972, 985 kind of routes.
No wonder suddenly 506 / 518 receiving DDs. Seems to be part of planning.
Hope they also start a forum to take route suggestions.
You know, there is something called "Google Maps".
Google Maps has this directions service which is quite (very) reliable, and can tell you which buses to take from one destination to another, with the estimated travelling times.
well, just some examples:
- Punggol Bus Interchange to Pasir Ris Bus Interchange: take bus service 3, ride for 33 minutes.
- Harbourfront MRT to Outram Park MRT: take bus service 143, ride for 9 minutes.
some I already know:- 1. Clementi to Bukit Batok: 106
- 2. Jurong West to Bukit Batok: 174
- 3. Jurong West to Choa Chu Kang: 172
- 4. Jurong West to Bukit Panjang: 180
I'm sure the Facebook page will come up with solutions that even Google does not know, and only the local people in that area would know.
eg. at times when the waiting line for 243W/G is extremely long at Boon Lay Bus Interchange, I
- take 192 or 193 to Jurong West Avenue 4 then alight, where by then 243W should be less crowded.
- take 181 to Jurong West Street 75, where most people alight and 243G should be quite empty.
- take 179. or take 179 or 241 to Pioneer Road North then alight and take 243W.
hope to see "cheat codes", rather than solutions that even Google knows.
Update 11:21pm-------------------------------------------------------------------------
err.... apparently,... seriously sensing some sacarsm on Facebook, between that Facebook page mentioned here and another Facebook page of the same category.
Introducing: Google Maps, Directions service, which allows you to plan your journey to the exact minutes, with the option of travelling entirely by bus.
- Seriously... by now, after so many years since Google launched this Directions service at around 2009/2010, who with a smartphone that has Google Maps, or uses Google products, does not know of this very reliable Google Maps Directions service?
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
You know, there is something called "Google Maps".
Google Maps has this directions service which is quite (very) reliable, and can tell you which buses to take from one destination to another, with the estimated travelling times.
well, just some examples:
- Punggol Bus Interchange to Pasir Ris Bus Interchange: take bus service 3, ride for 33 minutes.
- Harbourfront MRT to Outram Park MRT: take bus service 143, ride for 9 minutes.
some I already know:- 1. Clementi to Bukit Batok: 106
- 2. Jurong West to Bukit Batok: 174
- 3. Jurong West to Choa Chu Kang: 172
- 4. Jurong West to Bukit Panjang: 180
I'm sure the Facebook page will come up with solutions that even Google does not know, and only the local people in that area would know.
eg. at times when the waiting line for 243W/G is extremely long at Boon Lay Bus Interchange, I
- take 192 or 193 to Jurong West Avenue 4 then alight, where by then 243W should be less crowded.
- take 181 to Jurong West Street 75, where most people alight and 243G should be quite empty.
- take 179. or take 179 or 241 to Pioneer Road North then alight and take 243W.
hope to see "cheat codes", rather than solutions that even Google knows.
Update 11:21pm-------------------------------------------------------------------------
err.... apparently,... seriously sensing some sacarsm on Facebook, between that Facebook page mentioned here and another Facebook page of the same category.
Introducing: Google Maps, Directions service, which allows you to plan your journey to the exact minutes, with the option of travelling entirely by bus.
Seriously... by now, after so many years since Google launched this Directions service at around 2009/2010, who with a smartphone that has Google Maps, or uses Google products, does not know of this very reliable Google Maps Directions service?1. Sometimes information in Google Maps are outdated, especially bus routes. For example, sv 11 has not been extended to Rhu Cross in Google Maps. Even when the services are there, there are cases where the estimated time is way too inaccurate. (Even for 2 services that ply the same route for a sector, the time taken can be different)
2. Some people are so used to taking MRT that they don't even want to search for directions in Google Maps. They just think that MRT is the fastest.
3. Sometimes the directions given by Google Maps are ridiculous.
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Originally posted by SexyMichael:
Gearbox analogy (revised):
ZF = For exciting acceleration, good top speed and strong braking.
Voith = For buses that, when fitted with a ZF, become too powerful to safely control. also suitable for people whose ears are itchy for some non-standard retarder wheezing.
ZF also works better for urban routes which requires many stops, such as Orchard Road services... Other routes suitable for ZF include services with occasional express sectors, like 10.
Indeed, Voith allows the bus to speed up too fast, which may be dangerous if the drivers are not careful. However, this means that Voith would help in faster travel along the expressway...
BTW, you're exaggerating my point too much...
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Service 101 now runs on a fleet that is completely Voith
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Originally posted by 23ispolo:
ZF also works better for urban routes which requires many stops, such as Orchard Road services... Other routes suitable for ZF include services with occasional express sectors, like 10.
Indeed, Voith allows the bus to speed up too fast, which may be dangerous if the drivers are not careful. However, this means that Voith would help in faster travel along the expressway...
BTW, you're exaggerating my point too much...
I'm aware of that
Hand to heart, both transmissions are suitable in Singapore because of the lower road speeds (60km/h) as compared to say HK (70km/h) or Australia/Continental Europe (where the full 90km/h is required at times). The main difference between both transmission would be acceleration and retardation characteristics that can cause problems for BCs who are too used to either transmission.
If you ask me...
Voith transmissions are actually more suitable for frequent start-stop routes, such as feeders and to a large extent many of Singapore's trunk routes. Assuming that the BCs do demosntrate proper accelerator control, acceleratio + fuel economy + confort can be achieved on a Voith because there is no lockup and gear-shifting during the initial acceleration phase (compared to a ZF).
As to whether it makes sense to have a Voith run express routes or routes with significant E-way stretches, it definitely makes as much sense too, the only problem being how the final drive ratio (or rear axle ratio) is configured such that the engine is kept in the most fuel efficient rev band throughout this stretch. Many, if not all Voiths in Singapore dont have their final drives propery configured for long-distance / highway duties.
ZF Transmissions are a 'jack of all trades' because their larger number of intermediate gears (between 1 to 4) offer economy and performance at lower speeds, whilst a singificantly tall 2nd overdrive of 0.62:1 (actually 0.615:1) caters for highway duties at suitably low revs. Like you said, ZFs are actually suitable for all of Singapore's route types, and that I dont disagree.
SMRT's MAN A22s (the ZF ones) are imo ideally configured for express and highway-heavy bus routes, BUT BCs have to be trained/disciplined to demonstrate proper accelerator control such that unnecessary fuel consumption is reduced (by not pushing the revs above 1400rpm).
If I were a BC who uses gearshifts as an indicator of speed, yes I will be screwed with a Voith because the 1st gear covers a more significant speed band as compared to a ZF's 1st gear. Again, its also open to discussion because Voiths need not accelerate faster than ZFs, which is again down to driver habits and how agressively the transmissions upshift/downshift.
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Originally posted by TIB987K:
Update:
39: ETT revision on 14/03/15
Towards Yishun Int.:
[3 trips will be added âž² Weekday] [97 trips âž² 100 trips]
[2 trips will be added âž² Sunday/Public Holiday] [74 trips âž² 76 trips]
[3 trips will be added âž² Saturday/Eve of X'Mas, New Year, Chinese New Year] [75 trips âž² 78 trips]Towards Tampines Int.:
[5 trips will be added âž² Weekday] [96 trips âž² 101 trips]
[? trips will be added âž² Sunday/Public Holiday] [? trips âž² 74 trips]
[3 trips will be added âž² Saturday/Eve of X'Mas, New Year, Chinese New Year] [75 trips âž² 78 trips]85: ETT revision on 14/03/15
Towards Yishun Int.:
[5 trips will be added âž² Weekday] [75 trips âž² 80 trips]
[4 trips will be added âž² Sunday/Public Holiday] [67 trips âž² 71 trips]
[3 trips will be added âž² Saturday/Eve of X'Mas, New Year, Chinese New Year]
[72 trips âž² 75 trips]Towards Punggol Int.:
[5 trips will be added âž² Weekday] [75 trips âž² 80 trips]
[5 trips will be added âž² Sunday/Public Holiday] [66 trips âž² 71 trips]
[3 trips will be added âž² Saturday/Eve of X'Mas, New Year, Chinese New Year]
[71 trips âž² 74 trips]161: ETT revision on 16/03/15
Towards WRI:
[5 trips will be added] [119 trips âž² 124 trips]Towards HCI:
[4 trips will be added] [115 trips âž² 119 trips]222: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [7 trips will be added] [137 trips âž² 144 trips]
265: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [6 trips will be added] [114 trips âž² 120 trips]
269: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [10 trips will be added] [164 trips âž² 174 trips]
285: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [10 trips will be added] [110 trips âž² 120 trips]
410G: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [9 trips will be added] [155 trips âž² 164 trips]
[No change for 410W]Holiday1 timetable: ETT revision on 16/03/15
Services: 3, 5, 8, 9, 10, 10e, 12, 13, 14, 14e, 17, 19, 20, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 32, 33, 37, 38, 39, 45, 50, 52, 53, 54 ,55, 57, 58, 59, 62, 66, 73, 74e, 76, 81, 83, 86, 87, 90, 91, 95, 105, 109, 111, 113, 115, 120, 128, 133, 135, 136, 138, 139, 139M, 142, 145, 155, 158, 162, 174, 174e, 196, 196e, 197, 228, 238, 410Update (Minor):
2: ETT revision on 14/03/15
Towards Changi Village Ter:
[2 trips will be removed âž² Weekday]5: ETT revision on 14/03/15
Direction 1 Holiday timetable:
[16:27 WAB âž² 16:09 WAB]6: ETT revision on 14/03/15 [No change]
21: ETT revision on 14/03/15
[Timing 05:42, 05:54, 06:06, 06:18 âž² 05:44, 05:56, 06:07, 06:19]30e: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [No change]
55: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [Timing 19:10 âž² 19:09]
88: ETT revision on 14/03/15 [No change]
96: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [No change]107: ETT revision on 16/03/15
Both directions:
[1 trip will be added âž² Weekday]107M: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [No change]
109: ETT revision on 14/03/15
Both directions:
[4 trips will removed âž² Weekday]165: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [No change]
229: ETT revision on 16/03/15 [No change]
518: ETT revision on 14/03/15 [No change]
518A: ETT revision on 14/03/15 [No change]Post amendment: Information are not specific/detailed...
so 161 222 285 no add yet? anyone know which bus in?
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Skill BCs wont have any problem with either gearbox configuration even though Voith tend to jerk more often...