Government contracting model for public bus industry
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
I wouldn't call it close one eye. SMRT doesn't own the SMB range, and SBS doesn't own the SBS range, they only get exclusive use of it, which can be and has been taken back since the start of the year. I don't think they will reregister the buses in the short term, as there are a lot more important things for LTA and Tower to do than that. The cost involved includes the cost of new plates, the cost of manpower to change the plates, and the cost of changing the vehicle details in the vehicle registry and other systems such as IDFC, and these will likely be bourned by the taxpayers if implemented.
Aiyo,you still wanna discuss this again and again?Dude there must he a standard in everythings,I dont think LTA is so pathetic about changing plates mah..Eh those buses still got long way to go leh..Ok lor period im sick and tired to see all this again unless you work for LTA bus division.For your info those B9TLs/Citaros EDS,BFC in LYDEP is programmed by GA own people.So much for standard..So next time i can see GA use SBS/SMB plate as well lar cause its no more exclusive to SBS Transit and SMRT Buses anymore eh?Ok lor i dont give a hoot too cause i dont own those buses anyway.
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
Aiyo,you still wanna discuss this again and again?Dude there must he a standard in everythings,I dont think LTA is so pathetic about changing plates mah..Eh those buses still got long way to go leh..Ok lor period im sick and tired to see all this again unless you work for LTA bus division.For your info those B9TLs/Citaros EDS,BFC in LYDEP is programmed by GA own people.So much for standard..So next time i can see GA use SBS/SMB plate as well lar cause its no more exclusive to SBS Transit and SMRT Buses anymore eh?Ok lor i dont give a hoot too cause i dont own those buses anyway.
Would the bus operators change the plates if LTA doesn't tell them to? No, its extra effort and cost. And what if LTA tells them to? Its an additional cost to the bus companies that is very likely outside of the contract terms, and when that happens there is probably going to be negotiations with LTA regarding the amount payable for the labour and system changes. So in view of all this, plus the fact that the public doesn't really care, do you think LTA will see this as a worthwhile exercise? No.
AFAIK, standardizing plates is probably the least of LTA and Tower's concerns right now. I don't expect it to happen in the short term.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
Would the bus operators change the plates if LTA doesn't tell them to? No, its extra effort and cost. And what if LTA tells them to? Its an additional cost to the bus companies that is very likely outside of the contract terms, and when that happens there is probably going to be negotiations with LTA regarding the amount payable for the labour and system changes. So in view of all this, plus the fact that the public doesn't really care, do you think LTA will see this as a worthwhile exercise? No.
AFAIK, standardizing plates is probably the least of LTA and Tower's concerns right now. I don't expect it to happen in the short term.
We just wait and see,Too early to say.In social media world there is less chance that the public doesnt care,Just wait till someone brought up the issue in matter of time only.My question again,Do you work for the authority here?How come everything you knew so much?
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Just wondering, how many E500 will go to TT??
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
Aiyo,you still wanna discuss this again and again?Dude there must he a standard in everythings,I dont think LTA is so pathetic about changing plates mah..Eh those buses still got long way to go leh..Ok lor period im sick and tired to see all this again unless you work for LTA bus division.For your info those B9TLs/Citaros EDS,BFC in LYDEP is programmed by GA own people.So much for standard..So next time i can see GA use SBS/SMB plate as well lar cause its no more exclusive to SBS Transit and SMRT Buses anymore eh?Ok lor i dont give a hoot too cause i dont own those buses anyway.
There is no immediate conflict. But eventually this has to be sorted out, if an operator receives two or more vehicles with the same number but different prefixes (e.g. SG5001, SMB5001A and SBS5001R).
One possible solution is to have a separate fleet numbering from its registration:
Is this going to be very messy for bus enthuasists (either way)? Yes.
Does the commuter care? No, unless there are enough commuters having difficulty identifying the bus they are trying to complain about (and operators try to get off the hook based on this technicality).
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In 2004, when SMRT absorbed TIBS, it had 790 buses, all registered with the prefix of either "TIBS" or "CSS".
There was no change of registration plates.
It took around three years for SMRT to apply the red-white livery on the 790 buses.
We can expect the same to happen.
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there is no conflict between CSS, SMB and TIB regos
all three are in use between 2008 and 2012.
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BTW for GCM the regos have a prefix of SG though in the transition period, regos with SMB and SBS bus prefix are also used. i wonder if those outside of the GCM will also have SG plated buses?
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Originally posted by SMB145B:
BTW for GCM the regos have a prefix of SG though in the transition period, regos with SMB and SBS bus prefix are also used. i wonder if those outside of the GCM will also have SG plated buses?
why not? there are so many SG plates buses under SBST now...
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
I wouldn't call it close one eye. SMRT doesn't own the SMB range, and SBS doesn't own the SBS range, they only get exclusive use of it, which can be and has been taken back since the start of the year. I don't think they will reregister the buses in the short term, as there are a lot more important things for LTA and Tower to do than that. The cost involved includes the cost of new plates, the cost of manpower to change the plates, and the cost of changing the vehicle details in the vehicle registry and other systems such as IDFC, and these will likely be bourned by the taxpayers if implemented.
a set of new plates (front/back) cost less than S$50...not sure what manpower cost u r talking where u can easily unscrew it in less than 1 min.... editing of computer system is not difficult.. since they already can do the transfer, it is also consider the updating of the system....
we the taxpayers already pay for the cost of the new buses, what is the extra cost of the new rego plates? if want to so particular about the cost, might as well, ask LTA to register just 10 B9/10 citaros initially for training purpose and register the rest few days before start of operation (the depreciation cost is around S$137/day for a new B9)...instead of registering so many buses few months in advance... whereby the lifespan of the buses are cut short...
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more concern when the GCM start, is that those servicesunder Bulim/Loyang will get more improvement in their fleet/frequency (with fleet adds), considering the no of new buses registered..
so will LTA do the same for other services still under SBST/SMRT?
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By 1 June 2016, the LTA will have 652 second-hand buses. Of the 652 buses, 602 are BSEP buses (427 transferred from SBS Transit and 175 transferred from SMRT) and 50 are new buses purchased from SBS Transit.
In addition, the LTA has taken over the procurement contracts of SBS Transit, which involves 346 new buses. Since it's only a takeover of contracts, I assume those buses will be delivered in the livery of SBS Transit.
By 2017, there will be 1,000 BSEP buses. I assume the 346 buses purchased from SBS Transit is part of the figure. By then, the LTA will eventually have 1,050 second-hand buses (1,000 BSEP buses and 50 new buses from SBS Transit).
There are 1,050 buses to be re-painted.
When SMRT acquired TIBS in the year 2004, it took SMRT three years to re-paint the 790 second-hand buses it took over from TIBS. Assuming that the rate of re-painting is the same, it would take the authorities around four years to re-paint the 1,050 buses.
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Let me explain why there shouldn't be a problem with regoes... and why LTA has created one.
None of the BSEP buses' regoes at the moment clash with SG, so let's just look at among each other. (If you want a hypothetical scenario let's just direct replace the SBS and SMB prefixes with SG -- mostly no clash)
2000-2004: Citaro
3001-3169: A22
3300-3500: B9TL
3501-3523: B9TL and Enviro500
3524-3611: Enviro500
6300-6599: Citaro
Notice that none of them clash, except the 3501-3523 range.
This would not be a problem, since only a few Enviro500s are going to be incorporated into the GCM in the first place. We could avoid the clash of 3501-3523 by simply exempting that range of E500s from the GCM and using the others first.
The problem then, is that of the very few E500s that are going to GCM, LTA went and picked the ones that clash with B9TLs! (3501-3521)
Hence the problem would have been neatly avoided if LTA had simply allocated the last 21 BSEP E500s to TT instead of the first.
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Originally posted by CB2883J:
Let me explain why there shouldn't be a problem with regoes... and why LTA has created one.
None of the BSEP buses' regoes at the moment clash with SG, so let's just look at among each other. (If you want a hypothetical scenario let's just direct replace the SBS and SMB prefixes with SG -- mostly no clash)
2000-2004: Citaro
3001-3169: A22
3300-3500: B9TL
3501-3523: B9TL and Enviro500
3524-3611: Enviro500
6300-6599: Citaro
Notice that none of them clash, except the 3501-3523 range.
This would not be a problem, since only a few Enviro500s are going to be incorporated into the GCM in the first place. We could avoid the clash of 3501-3523 by simply exempting that range of E500s from the GCM and using the others first.
The problem then, is that of the very few E500s that are going to GCM, LTA went and picked the ones that clash with B9TLs! (3501-3521)
Hence the problem would have been neatly avoided if LTA had simply allocated the last 21 BSEP E500s to TT instead of the first.
No issue i think, cos SBS3501-3523 should be going to Go-ahead, not TT..
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
No issue i think, cos SBS3501-3523 should be going to Go-ahead, not TT..
You're right on that, but of course in the big picture the 3501-3523 clash is not ideal.
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Originally posted by gekpohboy:
Here is a brief summary of the transaction of buses:
As at 1 January 2016, SBS Transit has transferred 427 BSEP buses to the LTA.
As at 1 January 2016, SBS Transit has sold 50 new buses to the LTA.
As at 1 January 2016, the LTA has taken over the order of 346 new buses from SBS Transit, of which 210 buses will come in by 2016.
As at 1 June 2016, SMRT has transferred 175 BSEP buses to the LTA.
By 1 June 2016, the LTA would have 652 buses transferred from SBS Transit and SMRT (427 + 50 + 175).
If it took around three years for SMRT to apply its red-white livery on 790 buses previously, it may take around two years six months for the authorities to re-paint around 652 buses with the lush green livery.
When more BSEP buses are transferred from SMRT to the LTA, more buses will be re-painted to the lush green livery.
Anyway, if a bus in an incumbent livery is on a bus service that was from the incumbent, I do not think there would be confusion.
Even if ADL and MAN buses are used on SBST's routes and Volvo and Mercedes buses are used on SMRT's routes, they would probably be in the lush green livery.
So future SMRT/SBST buses will also come in the Lush Green livery?Or at least there should be the operator logo on the livery instead of the SGLoveBus logo
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Originally posted by TIB999B:
So future SMRT/SBST buses will also come in the Lush Green livery?Or at least there should be the operator logo on the livery instead of the SGLoveBus logo
I do not know, but I think those that are taken over from the incumbents will be delivered in the incumbent's liveries, while those bought directly by the LTA will be delivered in the lush green livery.
Eventually, all buses in GCM will be in the lush green livery.
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Originally posted by lemon1974:
a set of new plates (front/back) cost less than S$50...not sure what manpower cost u r talking where u can easily unscrew it in less than 1 min.... editing of computer system is not difficult.. since they already can do the transfer, it is also consider the updating of the system....
we the taxpayers already pay for the cost of the new buses, what is the extra cost of the new rego plates? if want to so particular about the cost, might as well, ask LTA to register just 10 B9/10 citaros initially for training purpose and register the rest few days before start of operation (the depreciation cost is around S$137/day for a new B9)...instead of registering so many buses few months in advance... whereby the lifespan of the buses are cut short...
$50 or less per plate is still money, backend work to change the systems is not as simple as it sounds and costs money. These are additional costs that are likely to be outside the scope of contract, and has to be justified.
As for registering buses earlier, it could be that contractual agreements with the bus manufacturers dictate the delivery schedule. You have to understand that suppliers don't get paid until the buses are delivered, and usually this payment/official delivery occurs at registration (if the buses are paid for by other financial means, the financiers will be the ones paying). Any deviation from the delivery schedule can lead to a renegotiation of prices and compensation from the party that requests such a deviation or breaches such schedules.
While I would like to see them standardise their registrations, I do not think it will happen in the short term, ie I expect the transferred buses to run with their current plates on the first day of handover.
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Originally posted by TIB999B:
So future SMRT/SBST buses will also come in the Lush Green livery?Or at least there should be the operator logo on the livery instead of the SGLoveBus logo
Non-GCM buses will still be in their livery until tendered out.
For those delivered in lush green livery there will at least be the operator logo, or at least a statement about its operator affixed:
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Originally posted by gekpohboy:
Bulim GCM will start with around 380 buses and Loyang GCM will start with around 400 buses. In total, the two GCMs will start with a total of approximately 780 buses.
Assuming all the buses are existing buses currently with SBS Transit and SMRT, that the re-painting of livery will start in June as the first GCM is implemented, the re-painting of the approximately 780 buses will take around 2 years 11 months 15 days.
This is based on the fact that SMRT took three years to re-paint its 790 buses, after it absorbed TIBS in year 2004.
Of course, I know a small number of the 780 buses will be in the lush green livery straightaway. Still, the number of buses that needs to be re-painted is around 700. We have to wait until the third quarter of 2019 for all the buses in Bulim GCM and Loyang GCM to be in the lush green livery.
Anyway, I do not think the livery would be of concern, especially if a bus in an incumbent livery is on a bus service that was from that incumbent.
There may be MAN A22 buses replacing the Scania K230UB buses at SBS Transit side, but those buses would probably be brand new ones delivered in the lush green livery.
Pretty good chance they will look like this on day one (this is from TT Sydney):
This is Sydney's (eventual) unified livery:
The same applies in Melbourne.
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Originally posted by gekpohboy:
By 1 June 2016, the LTA will have 652 second-hand buses. Of the 652 buses, 602 are BSEP buses (427 transferred from SBS Transit and 175 transferred from SMRT) and 50 are new buses purchased from SBS Transit.
In addition, the LTA has taken over the procurement contracts of SBS Transit, which involves 346 new buses. Since it's only a takeover of contracts, I assume those buses will be delivered in the livery of SBS Transit.
By 2017, there will be 1,000 BSEP buses. I assume the 346 buses purchased from SBS Transit is part of the figure. As such, the LTA will eventually have 1,050 second-hand buses (1,000 BSEP buses and 50 new buses from SBS Transit).
There are 1,050 buses to be re-painted.
When SMRT acquired TIBS in the year 2004, it took SMRT three years to re-paint the 790 second-hand buses it took over from TIBS. Assuming that the rate of re-painting is the same, it would take the authorities around four years to re-paint the 1,050 buses.
If the re-painting of second-hand buses starts in June this year, and it is done at a constant rate, we can expect all 1,050 of them to be re-painted with the lush green livery by around June 2020.
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Originally posted by gekpohboy:
Actually, considering all the new buses will be used for GCM eventually, they might as well have the new buses come in the lush green livery now, so that later don't need to re-paint. Otherwise, we may have to wait until year 2034 for all buses to be in the lush green livery.
Why year 2034? Because there are 12 GCM packages, each package starts with around 400 buses transferred from the incumbents, and it took 3 years for SMRT to re-paint 790 buses when it absorbed TIBS in year 2004. It's going to take 18 years to re-paint all the incumbents' buses, starting this year. By the time they re-paint finish, it's year 2034 already.
By year 2034, all the new buses that come in now would have reached their lifespan. So, it is not likely that all new buses at incumbents side will be re-painted, if they come in an incumbent's livery.
Needless to say, in year 2034, all of us will be 18 years older. I do not know about you, but I will be 38 years old by then; almost two times my age now.
What for wait 18 years for all new buses to be re-painted? I am sure we all have better things to do.
2025. If LTA continues with the GCM after 2022, that is when everything else will be tendered.
Multiple packages can be tendered at one go, or perhaps calling the tenders closer - at one each month.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
2025. If LTA continues with the GCM after 2022, that is when everything else will be tendered.
Multiple packages can be tendered at one go, or perhaps calling the tenders closer - at one each month.
When the Bus Service Operating Licences (BSOL) of the incumbents expire on 31 August 2016, the "LTA will negotiate with the incumbents to run the nine packages under the contracting model, for durations of about five years". When that happens, we may know how all the public bus routes are packaged.
Well, I agree with you that the LTA may accelerate the implementation of the Bus Contracting Model. However, this subjects to the availability of buses and bus depots.
Considering each package starts with around 400 buses, around 4,800 buses will be required for the twelve packages.
The Bus Service Enhancement Programme will make up 1,000 buses.
The LTA has purchased 50 buses from SBS Transit.
The LTA needs to purchase 3,750 more buses.
If we only have one assembly plant and that assembly plant can produce up to 20 buses a month, it will take 16 years to assemble 3,750 buses. Thankfully, I think we have around two assembly plants, so the assembly process would probably take 8 years instead.
On the assumption that the assembly of the 3,750 buses starts this year and it takes 8 years to assemble, the earliest the Bus Contracting Model can be fully implemented would be in the year 2024.
Meanwhile, it takes around 3 years 2 months to "create a GCM package", from the announcement of bus depot to the commencement of the GCM package.
After Bulim (Q2 2016) and Loyang (Q3 2016), it is Sungei Seletar (Q2 2018) and Ulu Pandan (Q3 2018).
Considering it takes around 2 years from the announcement of GCM to the commencement of GCM, we should hear of the Sungei Seletar GCM in Q2 this year, and hear of the Ulu Pandan GCM in Q3 this year.
It looks like they are implementing the GCM twice every two years. If so, it is going to take twelve years to fully implement the GCM. By then, we will be in the year 2028.
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Actually, there may be a slight problem with retaining SBS and SMB prefixes (it's more likely to manifest in the SBS ones). Say a passenger, a non-bus enthusiast, experiences some problem while on the 2 or 12. He doesn't know about Go-Ahead taking over because he doesn't live in the East. So he looks up, sees the rego "SBS3514R", and calls SBS up when he should be calling Go-Ahead.
Perhaps a good idea would be to just display the digits and not the whole plate inside the bus, and put a company logo next to the digits?
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
$50 or less per plate is still money, backend work to change the systems is not as simple as it sounds and costs money. These are additional costs that are likely to be outside the scope of contract, and has to be justified.
As for registering buses earlier, it could be that contractual agreements with the bus manufacturers dictate the delivery schedule. You have to understand that suppliers don't get paid until the buses are delivered, and usually this payment/official delivery occurs at registration (if the buses are paid for by other financial means, the financiers will be the ones paying). Any deviation from the delivery schedule can lead to a renegotiation of prices and compensation from the party that requests such a deviation or breaches such schedules.
While I would like to see them standardise their registrations, I do not think it will happen in the short term, ie I expect the transferred buses to run with their current plates on the first day of handover.
at most 800 buses to change rego plate x $50 = $40 000.. which cant even pay for one A22 bus..
We are already losing/wasting bigger money on those 20 Citydirect services which cost LTA around $500/trip... but the revenue collected is less than S$100/trip...and yet no one complain?
as for the registration of buses, it is funny that the bus manufacturers are only get paid when bus registered? usually for such big amount value purchase, it is usually under LC (financing from bank)...so the manufacturer does not have to wait till bus is registered... as long as MB or MAN delivered the buses on schedule, they will get paid (no matter when the buses are registered)..
further for the B9TL, they are assembled by SBST, so Volvo/Wright so kind to give the material to SBST first? and slowly wait for them to register the buses to get payment?
also,i also do not expect all the BSEP buses to change their rego immediately....