SMRT MAN NG363F A24 discussions
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But maybe just for debut. I doubt it will perm 190. Probably will be perm to 300/302.
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Yeah true,i dun think this guy and 388S will perm 190..
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As what I said about trial engine, SMB388S is known to be NG323F, using an A22 engine with slight modifications to counter the bendy weight.
SMB8001E then is the actual NG363F for production batch. As some fans observations yesterday, it hit 62km/h on upslope and almost 80km/h on BKE/PIE without speed limiter. It also has 2 PIS-es just like the E500, aircon-ball outlets and Voith. The 3rd brakelight seems to be the same European style this time round, not the usual just above MAN badge.
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Unless SMRT is going to use the A24s to push 190 for WAB till a new batch of DDs come in replace the balance bendy slots on 190. Cos I dont think there would be sufficient E500s to go around to give 190 the WAB status. I wont support this idea but it really depends on SMRT's priorities for now.
Anw even in future, when more DDs are used on trunks, I wont be surprised to see A24s cameoing on trunks that are bendy-friendly because of mileage reasons unless LTA imposes a 100% ban for bendys on certain routes
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Originally posted by TIB1234T:
As what I said about trial engine, SMB388S is known to be NG323F, using an A22 engine with slight modifications to counter the bendy weight.
SMB8001E then is the actual NG363F for production batch. As some fans observations yesterday, it hit 62km/h on upslope and almost 80km/h on BKE/PIE without speed limiter. It also has 2 PIS-es just like the E500, aircon-ball outlets and Voith. The 3rd brakelight seems to be the same European style this time round, not the usual just above MAN badge.
388 is a NG363F, if it was a NG323F it would had been registered as such.You don't know your stuffs, the engine used in the A22 and A24 is the same D20 engine, just with different power ratings set electronically.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
388 is a NG363F, if it was a NG323F it would had been registered as such.You don't know your stuffs, the engine used in the A22 and A24 is the same D20 engine, just with different power ratings set electronically.
Maybe you should have a read on this:
http://sgwiki.com/wiki/User_talk:Ihengheng
Actually the best way to determine the engine type is to decode the engine number, though I can't find how does MAN code their engine numbers.
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Originally posted by SBS9C:
Maybe you should have a read on this:
http://sgwiki.com/wiki/User_talk:Ihengheng
Actually the best way to determine the engine type is to decode the engine number, though I can't find how does MAN code their engine numbers.
There is one flaw, the user assumes that the D2066LUH 32 and 33 are different engines.
The D2066LUH 32 and 33 are the same engine, just electronically rated to 320 and 360 hp respectively. A -32 uprated to 360hp is basically a -33.
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Originally posted by TIB1234T:
As what I said about trial engine, SMB388S is known to be NG323F, using an A22 engine with slight modifications to counter the bendy weight.
SMB8001E then is the actual NG363F for production batch. As some fans observations yesterday, it hit 62km/h on upslope and almost 80km/h on BKE/PIE without speed limiter. It also has 2 PIS-es just like the E500, aircon-ball outlets and Voith. The 3rd brakelight seems to be the same European style this time round, not the usual just above MAN badge.
Brake light is still at the same location above the MAN badge. I believe the brake light look-alike thing is the rear CCTV, updated from SMB388S design as some BCs had feedbacked about the CCTV display not being clear as there are reflections from the rear window as there was some space between the CCTV unit and the rear window. Anyways it does look even closer to a Lion's City G now.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
There is one flaw, the user assumes that the D2066LUH 32 and 33 are different engines.
The D2066LUH 32 and 33 are the same engine, just electronically rated to 320 and 360 hp respectively. A -32 uprated to 360hp is basically a -33.
Hmm this I am not so sure, I'm not an expert on the engines. If it was the same then I wonder why the big difference in performance. Perhaps like what I had first believed it could be a LUH-33 that was detuned to a lower output.
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There's a good chance that the NG 363s are using only a Voith D864.5 as the advertised nominal peak torque would not be required in a bus context. Instead, what the manufacturer may do is electronically limit the torque to, say, 1500 Nm but the higher power rating would allow the nominated torque figure to be available over a wider engine speed "window" compared to the same engine with a lower power rating. This has a positive effect on driveability, especially with a heavy vehicle such as an articulated bus. With today's CAN bus systems where all the components of a bus communicate with one another, it is trivial to limit engine torque to required levels. The engine torque limit also allows for turntable protection, i.e. when the turntable is not straight, engine output is limited in proportion to the of angle of articulation.
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Originally posted by SBS9C:
Maybe you should have a read on this:
http://sgwiki.com/wiki/User_talk:Ihengheng
Actually the best way to determine the engine type is to decode the engine number, though I can't find how does MAN code their engine numbers.
unlike MB where the engine specifications can be decoded by the 6-digit SKU pointed out by Bus Stopping in another post, you can only determine the MAN engine type through the engine S/N.
for instance, the engine serial number "503xxxxxxxxxxx" denotes a D2066 LUH engine, "504xxxxxxxxxxx" denotes a D2066 LF engine, so on so forth.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
There is one flaw, the user assumes that the D2066LUH 32 and 33 are different engines.
The D2066LUH 32 and 33 are the same engine, just electronically rated to 320 and 360 hp respectively. A -32 uprated to 360hp is basically a -33.
if uprating engines were as trivial as described, MAN wouldnt need charge a premium for operators buying 360hp engines because one could buy a 320hp and as described above uprate the said engine to 360hp (whilst retaining all of the performance characteristics of the 360hp engine)
it makes moot the idea of discriminating operators based on power options because "one engine rules them all" (with a few additional clicks of course).
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Originally posted by SexyMichael:
if uprating engines were as trivial as described, MAN wouldnt need charge a premium for operators buying 360hp engines because one could buy a 320hp and as described above uprate the said engine to 360hp (whilst retaining all of the performance characteristics of the 360hp engine)
it makes moot the idea of discriminating operators based on power options because "one engine rules them all" (with a few additional clicks of course).
They charge a premium (if applicable) because they CAN. A simple swap of an ECU is all it takes to uprate an engine as unlike in previous generations, no mechanical changes are required. The operators are unable to uprate the engines themselves unless they obtain a replacement ECU.
On saying that, the D 2066 LUH 33 is standard fitment to the A24 chassis so there's no effective 'penalty' anyway. The D 2066 LUH 32 is now generally reserved for rigid buses. -
Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:
They charge a premium (if applicable) because they CAN. A simple swap of an ECU is all it takes to uprate an engine as unlike in previous generations, no mechanical changes are required. The operators are unable to uprate the engines themselves unless they obtain a replacement ECU.
On saying that, the D 2066 LUH 33 is standard fitment to the A24 chassis so there's no effective 'penalty' anyway. The D 2066 LUH 32 is now generally reserved for rigid buses.i believe the original question would be along the lines of: "can i electronically retune an D2066 LUH 32 to an D2066 LUH33 without swapping out anything at all?"
thanks for the reply; a quick question here: how prevalent are power-sensitive components on bus engines, i.e. components rated for a fixed power output that will require a change on engine uprating?
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Originally posted by SexyMichael:
i believe the original question would be along the lines of: "can i electronically retune an D2066 LUH 32 to an D2066 LUH33 without swapping out any components at all?"
thanks for the reply; a quick question here: how prevalent are power-sensitive components on bus engines, i.e. components rated for a fixed power output that will require a change on engine uprating?
Originally posted by SexyMichael:if uprating engines were as trivial as described, MAN wouldnt need charge a premium for operators buying 360hp engines because one could buy a 320hp and as described above uprate the said engine to 360hp (whilst retaining all of the performance characteristics of the 360hp engine)
it makes moot the idea of discriminating operators based on power options because "one engine rules them all" (with a few additional clicks of course).
A lot of the engines on the market now don't require any changes at all, manufacturers design their engines to meet a range of power/needs. Only the ECU needs to be changed but that isn't a mechanical part.
"one engine rules them all" is therefore really the case now, saves the customer on maintenance and training, in the case of MAN, they offer the same engine on the single deck A22 & A69, articulated A24 and double deck A95. Simplyfing the maintenance regime in terms of things like logistics and training. And depending on a customer requirements, the same ZF 6AP2000B gearbox can be used on all 3 products, further simplyfing the process.
MAN is not the only one doing this for a wide range of products covering single decks to double decks, Scania has been doing this as well.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
A lot of the engines on the market now don't require any changes at all, manufacturers design their engines to meet a range of power/needs. Only the ECU needs to be changed but that isn't a mechanical part.
"one engine rules them all" is therefore really the case now, saves the customer on maintenance and training, in the case of MAN, they offer the same engine on the single deck A22 & A69, articulated A24 and double deck A95. Simplyfing the maintenance regime in terms of things like logistics and training. And depending on a customer requirements, the same ZF 6AP2000B gearbox can be used on all 3 products, further simplyfing the process.
MAN is not the only one doing this for a wide range of products covering single decks to double decks, Scania has been doing this as well.
While that may seem to be case on paper, there are still differences between the engines, transmissions even if 99.99% of the mechanical parts are the same. if it helps, these differences can be as much a pain as a blatantly different unit altogether.
to impress this difference in subtlety: A ZF Ecomat 6HP 602CN, for example, can be equipped with up to 3 different torque converters of the same model (W390) because each TC has different torque multiplication characteristics, so on so forth...
Remarks: the above argument can be extended to Ecolife and even DIWA transmissions...
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Originally posted by SexyMichael:
While that may seem to be case on paper, there are still differences between the engines, transmissions even if 99.99% of the mechanical parts are the same. if it helps, these differences can be as much a pain as a blatantly different unit altogether.
to impress this difference in subtlety: A ZF Ecomat 6HP 602CN, for example, can be equipped with up to 3 different torque converters of the same model (W390) because each TC has different torque multiplication characteristics, so on so forth...
Remarks: the above argument can be extended to Ecolife and even DIWA transmissions...
if 99% of parts are the same, it really is a big deal. Really helps a lot in maintenance planning and training.
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Think like SMB388S and SMB8001E no longer doing 190...someone spotted both of them on 180 three days ago (19/03/2015).
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8001E doing 176,More like SP.Hopefully 388S and 8001E perm on CCK feeders
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I believe that SMB8001E will be jumping around different services and maybe even transfer back to Wpdep
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Maybe rplc meant to replace 888M?(Although 888M is still running)
888M >> 8001E [KJ]
889K >> 8002C [WL]
890E >> 8003A [WL]
891C...899G >> 8004Y...8012Z [KJ]
901H >> 8013X [KJ]
902E >> 8014T [WL]
903C >> 8015R [KJ]
904A >> 8016M [WL] -
Yeah guess its probably SP for now. When more units come in, SMRT might send the A24s to 300/302.
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If they prove practical and sucessful most probably another batch would come in...ST and SMRT is like what Volvo to SBST
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SMB8002C spotted in WPDEP...